Dispatching trains under ETCS

[JWK]

Catching a train from Welshpool earlier today, I noticed that in both directions, trains were being dispatched in the traditional manner by guards blowing their whistle and hand signalling to the driver from the platform by their local door. The Cambrian lines are, of course, signalled using ETCS, so there is no visible indication for the guard that the train has a clear signal to proceed.

My limited understanding of procedures is that the guard (or platform staff) should only give the dispatch signal to the driver having first checked that any starting signal is showing a proceed aspect - though final responsibility for checking this of course lies with the driver. Under cab-based signalling systems, like ETCS, are guards/platform staff relieved of this responsibility and their dispatch signal is simply to signify that the doors are safely closed and that station duties are complete?

I understand that drivers departing having received a whistle or hand signal, without rechecking the starting signal, is considered a known SPAD risk, so is there any way this is mitigated under ETCS operation, especially at a high-risk location such as Welshpool where the starting ‘signal’ controls access to a single line section?

 

[Railsigns]

I understand the procedure on the Cambrian line is for the driver to give the buzzer code 2-1 to inform the conductor that they have the movement authority, which is also how it worked under RETB.

Cab signalling still has the option of providing "off" indicators on platforms for dispatch purposes, even though there is no physical signal.

 

[JWK]

I understand the procedure on the Cambrian line is for the driver to give the buzzer code 2-1 to inform the conductor that they have the movement authority, which is also how it worked under RETB.

Cab signalling still has the option of providing "off" indicators on platforms for dispatch purposes, even though there is no physical signal.

Thanks! That makes a lot of sense.

 

[Re 4/4]

Presumably under ETCS, the risk of a 'start against signal' turning into a SPAD is also much reduced because ETCS would stop the train before it reaches the end of movement authority?

 

[507 001]

Cab signalling still has the option of providing "off" indicators on platforms for dispatch purposes, even though there is no physical signal.

Is there anywhere where these have been fitted yet?

 

[Railsigns]

Is there anywhere where these have been fitted yet?

Yes, Ebbsfleet and Stratford International stations (TVM430 cab signalling).

 

[Llanigraham]

Catching a train from Welshpool earlier today, I noticed that in both directions, trains were being dispatched in the traditional manner by guards blowing their whistle and hand signalling to the driver from the platform by their local door. The Cambrian lines are, of course, signalled using ETCS, so there is no visible indication for the guard that the train has a clear signal to proceed.

My limited understanding of procedures is that the guard (or platform staff) should only give the dispatch signal to the driver having first checked that any starting signal is showing a proceed aspect - though final responsibility for checking this of course lies with the driver. Under cab-based signalling systems, like ETCS, are guards/platform staff relieved of this responsibility and their dispatch signal is simply to signify that the doors are safely closed and that station duties are complete?

I understand that drivers departing having received a whistle or hand signal, without rechecking the starting signal, is considered a known SPAD risk, so is there any way this is mitigated under ETCS operation, especially at a high-risk location such as Welshpool where the starting ‘signal’ controls access to a single line section?

There are hundreds of stations that don't have signals anywhere near them.

Presumably under ETCS, the risk of a 'start against signal' turning into a SPAD is also much reduced because ETCS would stop the train before it reaches the end of movement authority?

Correct!

 

[Nym]

Yes, Ebbsfleet and Stratford International stations (TVM430 cab signalling).

And all of the TRTS lights on LUL platforms on S40 and DTG-R, and the TRTS lamps on S Stock for S60.

(If we're including in cab signalling that is not ETCS)

 

[Lurcheroo]

So I’ll just explain how the guard side works to avoid a bit of misunderstanding.
At any of the old token exchange points on the Cambrian (and where you enter a single line section) so, Welshpool, Newtown, Machynlleth, Dovey Junction, Aberystwyth, Tywyn, Barmouth, Harlech, Porthmadog and Pwllheli, then the driver will give just ‘2’ (known as ‘ready to start’) on the buzzer to tell the guard that they have a movement authority (a proceed aspect in conventional signalling terms). Then the guard dispatches as normal. No hand signals are used, once the doors are closed and the guard has closed their local door they will give 2 on the buzzer to tel the driver they are ready to start. The driver will repeat that back to the guard.

I’m not a driver but I’ll do my best to explain the driver side of this.
There is potential for a SAS-SPAD to turn into a SPAD.
As an example when starting away from somewhere where the signaller has first set the route such as a service beginning at Machynlleth then you are given what is know as ‘on site’ which will allow the driver to pass one block marker. But they must not do this without a movement authority or this would be a SPAD.

Once you pass the block marker (more specifically the Balise between the rails) then it should ‘step up’ into full supervision.

Hope this helps

 

[JWK]

So I’ll just explain how the guard side works to avoid a bit of misunderstanding.
At any of the old token exchange points on the Cambrian (and where you enter a single line section) so, Welshpool, Newtown, Machynlleth, Dovey Junction, Aberystwyth, Tywyn, Barmouth, Harlech, Porthmadog and Pwllheli, then the driver will give just ‘2’ (known as ‘ready to start’) on the buzzer to tell the guard that they have a movement authority (a proceed aspect in conventional signalling terms). Then the guard dispatches as normal. No hand signals are used, once the doors are closed and the guard has closed their local door they will give 2 on the buzzer to tel the driver they are ready to start. The driver will repeat that back to the guard.

I’m not a driver but I’ll do my best to explain the driver side of this.
There is potential for a SAS-SPAD to turn into a SPAD.
As an example when starting away from somewhere where the signaller has first set the route such as a service beginning at Machynlleth then you are given what is know as ‘on site’ which will allow the driver to pass one block marker. But they must not do this without a movement authority or this would be a SPAD.

Once you pass the block marker (more specifically the Balise between the rails) then it should ‘step up’ into full supervision.

Hope this helps

Thank you very much for that comprehensive reply - very illuminating!