Discussion on panic attacks and general first aid training at work

[cuccir]

[Mod note - This is a duplicate post of this one from this thread.]

There are two separate issues here.

The first is the issuing standard fare. You've not given us any context for this so I presume that you're no longer contesting the fact that you had no ticket and that this was issued correctly?

The second is the response to a panic attack. If you feel that the officer did not respond appropriately to you having one, then I agree that it would be useful to raise this. However, I don't think you can consider this "taking action against" this person - frankly, you don't need to be so vindictive and combative. You also won't receive a lot of sympathy from people on here, or indeed I suspect within the company, if you take that approach.

If you genuinely feel that this officer failed in his/her duty, then a letter of complaint detailing the failure to respond to the panic attack (and praising those who did?) - and including a question about whether staff are trained - written to the company ought to suffice. I don't know what evidence you have that Metrolink don't take the situation seriously, given that 2 out 3 staff involved appear to have helped you. Even then, I would not expect 'action against' this member of staff - an investigation may nor may not be appropriate, and action would depend upon that member of staff's overall record. If nothing else, Metrolink I'm sure would also want to hear their side of the story and the way you portray yourself on this post does not make you seem a reliable narrator.

..how sure is the OP that the officer knew they were having a panic attack...

To be fair if the officer has been first aid trained then they ought to be able to identify this.

 

[Bletchleyite]

To be fair if the officer has been first aid trained then they ought to be able to identify this.

While I must admit I disagree with this being the case, not all customer-facing rail staff are first aid trained. I imagine he wasn't, and probably feared being assaulted or similar and so walked away.

As regards avoiding a repeat, the best way to avoid run-ins with any staff on public transport is to ensure you have a valid ticket.

Neil

 

[Clip]

To be fair if the officer has been first aid trained then they ought to be able to identify this.

As Neil has said, if they have been.

I was 1st aid trained for many a year and I have been in situations similar to the OP and it was very difficult to know the person was having a panic attack at first because it first started out as pure anger and hatred to me and my colleagues, it was only after a few minutes that I realised it could be one and thats after my colleagues had left to avoid a very confrontational situation as the BTP had been called.

And if I hadnt had to have stayed there and await the BTP I too would have walked away to stop myself getting into a fight.

 

[Searle]

Also how sure is the OP that the officer knew they were having a panic attack and did not think that you were just terribly angry at being issued with a standard fare?

He said he had trouble breathing and standing up, you don't need to be a psychiatrist to realise that he's not well. I've been with someone who's had a similar panic attack, and it's extremely obvious. Shame on the officer who decided to just walk off in my opinion.

 

[455driver]

A lot of assumptions being made against the nasty staff member on here again I see! :roll:

How often do you think RPIs (or the Metro equivalent) see people have medical issues etc when they are caught?

How do you all know he was first aid trained?

How do you know if he could tell the difference from somebody play acting and being genuine?

Why is is it his job to intervene (especially if not first aid trained)?

The only thing relevant to the standard fare being issued is-
Did you have a valid ticket for the complete journey you were making, yes or no!
If the answer is no then the standard fare was issued correctly and there are no grounds to appeal!


If the OP gets in such a mess just because they are caught fare dodging may I recommend they buy a ticket every time because if they did then the situation wont occur again! As for all the irrelevant 'living away from family' and 'minimum wage job' stuff, what has that got to do with anything, that is your choice and has nothing to do with paying for items and services which you receive.

 

[Clip]

He said he had trouble breathing and standing up, you don't need to be a psychiatrist to realise that he's not well. I've been with someone who's had a similar panic attack, and it's extremely obvious. Shame on the officer who decided to just walk off in my opinion.

And did that person you were with just get into a confrontation with an official due to them not following a procedure?


Of course you will know that panic attacks generally cause no harm to the person and in most cases ease after 30 minutes or so unless they are prone to sustained attacks to which they may last longer.

Ive also never once had someone go to Hospital through having one also - not saying that it cant happen but I am amazed that the OP had to be taken there.

Whilst I am not saying the OP had one I just read it as they are using it as some form of excuse to appeal the standard fare they recieved. I make no apologies about that stance either.

 

[jon0844]

To be fair if the officer has been first aid trained then they ought to be able to identify this.

There are many levels of first aid training. I've only done a one day course and we didn't cover things like panic attacks, or how to deal with them.

Maybe that's covered on the more advanced courses, but would all staff be required to do these - or indeed any course at all?

Meanwhile, the OP has expressed a desire never to use their services again so perhaps the most helpful responses would be suggestions of alternative transport?

 

[Llanigraham]

He said he had trouble breathing and standing up, you don't need to be a psychiatrist to realise that he's not well. I've been with someone who's had a similar panic attack, and it's extremely obvious. Shame on the officer who decided to just walk off in my opinion.

Sorry, but as an extended trained First Aider that is rubbish.
Anger from a person can manifest itself in many different ways; the "fight and flee" response does lead to chenges in the breathing response, the attitude, and the colour of a person. All very similar to a "panic attack", which also happens to be a very convenient method of some people trying to get out of things.

And as you weren't there you are unable to criticise anyone.

 

[Searle]

And as you weren't there you are unable to criticise anyone.

I'm allowed to criticise people as much as everyone in this thread is criticising the OP :roll:

Regardless of whether there was a chance of the OP needed to go to hospital, it's an incredibly stupid thing to do for the officer just to walk off. If he had been having a heart attack and the officer just walked off, I doubt people would be having the same views. One day, mental illnesses will be treated the same as physical ones :roll:

I'd just like to point out the irony of someone saying how not being able to breathe for 30 minutes can cause no physical harm even if it doesn't cause physical harm, the psychological harm of it is immense.

 

[cuccir]

There are many levels of first aid training. I've only done a one day course and we didn't cover things like panic attacks, or how to deal with them.

Maybe that's covered on the more advanced courses, but would all staff be required to do these - or indeed any course at all?

Oh I completely agree with this - I included that if Lucy writes to Metrolink, one of the response might be that staff are not trained to deal with this. We might also imagine a range of very good reasons why Metrolink might chose to not want to do this!

A lot of assumptions being made against the nasty staff member on here again I see! :roll:

How often do you think RPIs (or the Metro equivalent) see people have medical issues etc when they are caught?

How do you all know he was first aid trained?

How do you know if he could tell the difference from somebody play acting and being genuine?

Why is is it his job to intervene (especially if not first aid trained)?

The only thing relevant to the standard fare being issued is-
Did you have a valid ticket for the complete journey you were making, yes or no!
If the answer is no then the standard fare was issued correctly and there are no grounds to appeal!


If the OP gets in such a mess just because they are caught fare dodging may I recommend they buy a ticket every time because if they did then the situation wont occur again! As for all the irrelevant 'living away from family' and 'minimum wage job' stuff, what has that got to do with anything, that is your choice and has nothing to do with paying for items and services which you receive.

Good to see someone not bothering to read posts before going off on a rant.

 

[Flamingo]

If the OP is that mentally unstable that being pulled up for not having a ticket and charged a standard fare (not interviewed under caution, or arrested) can send them into a panic attack that requires hospitalisation, I would wonder if they really should be out on their own!

The only advice I would give them is to always buy a ticket, then they will not risk putting themselves in this situation in the future.

As regards the staff being first-aid trained, there would be no more reason for revenue staff to be first-aid trained than any member of the public at large
Edited to add: As no pedant has pointed it out yet, let me be the first to tell the OP that a fine is only issued by a court (and would have run to several hundred pounds).

 

[Clip]

I'd just like to point out the irony of someone saying how not being able to breathe for 30 minutes can cause no physical harm even if it doesn't cause physical harm, the psychological harm of it is immense.

I think you should read what I actually wrote ratehr than make out I said something different. And my statement holds true and Im sure I can beack it up with solid health advice from medical professionals if you think I am wrong

 

[tony6499]

Maybe the inspector felt threatened by the OP or did not wish to escalate any potential situation so did as staff are taught to do and that is walk away from any conflict.

As the OP has admitted to travelling without a ticket I'm not sure what grounds she has to appeal on apart from the man being horrible to her.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Sorry, but as an extended trained First Aider that is rubbish.
Anger from a person can manifest itself in many different ways; the "fight and flee" response does lead to chenges in the breathing response, the attitude, and the colour of a person. All very similar to a "panic attack", which also happens to be a very convenient method of some people trying to get out of things.

And quite possibly also a warning bell of a very angry passenger who might be about to deliver some physical abuse, certainly if the RPI was relatively new to the job.

Neil

 

[Merseysider]

If the OP is that mentally unstable that being pulled up for not having a ticket and charged a standard fare (not interviewed under caution, or arrested) can send them into a panic attack that requires hospitalisation, I would wonder if they really should be out on their own!

How does this help the OP?

Some of the comments on here really do give a bad impression of our forum!

 

[Tetchytyke]

If he had been having a heart attack and the officer just walked off, I doubt people would be having the same views. One day, mental illnesses will be treated the same as physical ones :roll:

If my aunty had testicles she'd be my uncle.

The OP wasn't having a heart attack, she was having a flounce panic attack because the nasty mean jobsworth had nastily and meanly caught her breaking the law. And now the OP is trying to retaliate because she still thinks she's special and that the rules don't apply to her.

As for the "severe psychological trauma" of being caught without a ticket, I can highly recommend the simple yet effective solution buying a ticket next time. I normally charge £100 an hour for such expert advice, but the OP can have it for free.

 

[Searle]

The OP wasn't having a heart attack, she was having a flounce panic attack because the nasty mean jobsworth had nastily and meanly caught her breaking the law. And now the OP is trying to retaliate because she still thinks she's special and that the rules don't apply to her..

It's 2014, and people still like to joke about and not believe that mental illnesses are real. I'd love for you to see what someone is like whilst they're having a panic attack, because you're just coming off as extremely ignorant by calling it a 'flounce'.

Of course you will know that panic attacks generally cause no harm to the person and in most cases ease after 30 minutes or so unless they are prone to sustained attacks to which they may last longer.

You said here that panic attacks ease after 30 minutes or so. It is a fact that people having panic attacks have trouble breathing. How have I made out you're saying something different?

 

[Flamingo]

How does this help the OP?

Some of the comments on here really do give a bad impression of our forum!

Well, I suppose I could have provided them with the details of somebody to help with their anger management, but if they can use the internet well enough to find this forum, they are capable of finding a good therapist themselves.

And it is intended to help the OP, by giving them a view about how other people might think they need a reality check.

 

[Kristofferson]

If he had been having a heart attack and the officer just walked off, I doubt people would be having the same views. One day, mental illnesses will be treated the same as physical ones

Valid point, but very bad analogy. A heart attack would see the person on the floor in seconds and dead in minutes. I doubt even the most heartless jobsworth would fail to notice, or ignore, that.

 

[Llanigraham]

Maybe the inspector felt threatened by the OP or did not wish to escalate any potential situation so did as staff are taught to do and that is walk away from any conflict.

As the OP has admitted to travelling without a ticket I'm not sure what grounds she has to appeal on apart from the man being horrible to her.

And quite possibly also a warning bell of a very angry passenger who might be about to deliver some physical abuse, certainly if the RPI was relatively new to the job.

Neil

Exactly!!
Shame there isn't a "Like" button on this forum.

Searle,
You are being very quick to criticise people on this forum, some of whom are obviously experienced, so can you please tell us what qualifications you hold medically to support your criticism?

 

[cuccir]

A panic attack is not a flounce, and is not a sign of 'mental instability'.

 

[Flamingo]

A panic attack is not a flounce, and is not a sign of 'mental instability'.

You are right. A hissy-fit over being caught fare-dodging is not a sign of mental instability either.

 

[Tetchytyke]

A hissy-fit over being caught fare-dodging is not a sign of mental instability either.

Precisely. A hissy-fit as an attempt to get away with being caught red-handed is not a panic attack either.

The bit I liked the most was "I'm so angry I'm never giving any money to Metrolink again". The OP clearly doesn't do irony, given that the "terrible psychological trauma" of the nasty jobsworth being nasty and jobsworth-y resulted entirely from the fact she didn't give any money to Metrolink in the first place.

 

[Clip]

You said here that panic attacks ease after 30 minutes or so. It is a fact that people having panic attacks have trouble breathing. How have I made out you're saying something different?

No, you claimed I said this

I'd just like to point out the irony of someone saying how not being able to breathe for 30 minutes can cause no physical harm even if it doesn't cause physical harm, the psychological harm of it is immense.

Which I didnt. And generally anyone not breathing for 30 minutes would die.

Also to back this up I refer you to this link which backs up the point I made which you claim is wrong

(even though you said I said something else

Panic attacks usually last between five and 20 minutes, and although it may feel as though you are in serious trouble, they aren't dangerous and shouldn't cause any physical harm. It is unlikely you will be admitted to hospital if you have a panic attack.

Now as I have already mentioned in this thread about my first aid training I do actually know what I am talking about and you still havent answered the question I asked you about the situation your friend was in when you tried to rebuke me.

Now stop blowing everything out of proportion because its just becoming ridiculous now.

 

[bravot]

Regardless of whether there was a chance of the OP needed to go to hospital, it's an incredibly stupid thing to do for the officer just to walk off. If he had been having a heart attack and the officer just walked off, I doubt people would be having the same views. One day, mental illnesses will be treated the same as physical ones :roll:

If someone had a heart attack after being given a penalty fare then it would be most tragic.

However, I have seen people faux illness in a poor attempt at escaping a penalty.

Mental and physical illnesses will never be treated the same and I'm sure that it's quite an offensive remark towards those suffering from mental illnesses.

I'd just like to point out the irony of someone saying how not being able to breathe for 30 minutes can cause no physical harm even if it doesn't cause physical harm, the psychological harm of it is immense.

I think someone who hasn't been able to breathe for half an hour is probably quite dead...

How does this help the OP?

Some of the comments on here really do give a bad impression of our forum!

I do think that people need to manage their expectations and often be given a dose of reality.

It's attempts at evading a penalty such as this which tend to cause a "non-emotional" response...

 

[RJ]

How often do you think RPIs (or the Metro equivalent) see people have medical issues etc when they are caught?

If the ticket inspector isn't a qualified medical practitioner, they're putting themselves at risk by acting as a diagnostician.

 

[Greenback]

I still see nothing that makes my initial reading of the opening post in the original thread incorrect. The person was angry at receiving a standard fare penalty, it was, they say, their first time without a ticket so they feel they should have been let off, and they are now hoping that complaining about the officer walking away while they were having a panic attack will help them get out of the standard fare.

Without any further information being provided I really don't think that the OP has any grounds for being let off, or for appealing the standard fare, nor do I think it's up to the Metrolink officer to diagnose or treat their condition if they are not competent in first aid.

 

[Llanigraham]

Quite!

 

[Bletchleyite]

If the ticket inspector isn't a qualified medical practitioner, they're putting themselves at risk by acting as a diagnostician.

Not any more than any other member of the public if they felt something was amiss enough to seek assistance, e.g. by calling an ambulance.

I still think front-line rail staff should do a first aid course, though. I think far too few people are first-aid trained. There would be no harm in everyone in any kind of public-facing job being so trained. It would, to me, be a good use of taxpayer's money to fund such a thing, and I believe it could save lives.

I'd also like to see first aid feature in the school curriculum.

Neil

 

[jon0844]

I'd also like to see first aid feature in the school curriculum.

It isn't? I did it at school, albeit back in the late 1980s.

I have no idea if it was part of any curriculum or just something our school chose to do though.