Discretion or Inconsistency

[Titfield]

As mentioned in another thread "discretion" seems to be expected increasingly by passengers when irregularities are discovered.

My concern though is that because discretion is exercised on an individual basis, the actions taken by staff can then be "inconsistent" i.e. the same circumstances are treated differently by different members of staff.

Does this then not create further issues which are more difficult to resolve?

 

[island]

No two situations are exactly alike anyway.

 

[Llanigraham]

Discretion is always inconsistent, because no two situations are ever the same.

 

[Solent&Wessex]

As mentioned in another thread "discretion" seems to be expected increasingly by passengers when irregularities are discovered.

My concern though is that because discretion is exercised on an individual basis, the actions taken by staff can then be "inconsistent" i.e. the same circumstances are treated differently by different members of staff.

Does this then not create further issues which are more difficult to resolve?

In a basic sense, yes it does.

Virtually every time I come across a discrepancy or irregularity I am asked why I cannot use my discretion, as though the passenger was expecting it. Indeed more often now they directly tell me that they have been told I can use my discretion, it is up to me whether they can travel (especially where Advance tickets are concerned), and then recite various examples of where my colleagues have shown discretion before, and allowed them to get away with it.

When I don't show "discretion" I am then told my customer service is poor, I am accused of being rude, and if I am lucky this is followed up with a tweet or email to the company telling them how nasty and rude I am with poor customer service.

It can be anything from not selling a CDR or FNW on the train when the booking office was open, to making someone pay for sitting in first class, or pointing out that their tickets aren't valid for some reason or other.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Discretion is always inconsistent, because no two situations are ever the same.

True to some degree, but many situations are the same or nearly the same, and I think what the OP is referring to is the increasingly common sutuation where people are expecting to be shown discretion and then kick off when someone doesn't show it.

 

[tony6499]

Discretion is one of the Conductors biggest problem, 'he' allowed me to do that yesterday etc.

Remember anytime you refuse a customer something then you enter into 'jobs worth' territory no matter what and Conductors quickly learn to let it wash over them.

 

[Clip]

True to some degree, but many situations are the same or nearly the same, and I think what the OP is referring to is the increasingly common sutuation where people are expecting to be shown discretion and then kick off when someone doesn't show it.

This also happens asa we can see on this section of the forum when people 'expext' a penalty fare and feel hard done by when they get sent for prosecution.

One of the problems of the WWW is that theres so much information now in the ether(such as that Standard article which gets brought up from time to time) that people dont fullyunderstand what they read or read it incorrectly and get the hump when they get caught out.

Of course, the TM/RPI's are always rude, nasty and make people cry too, just for good measure.

 

[Flamingo]

I got so fed up with being told I needed to show discretion by a manager who did not want to have to deal with complaints that I now show discretion to just about everybody - the exceptions are first on a Std (especially if standing in vestibules), split tickets if the train didn't stop there , wrong route if going to board another TOC's train, and no ticket at all, especially if going to Reading.

Otherwise, if the start and finish point are correct I clip it and walk away.

I have told several managers this, and told them if they wanted me to stop using my discretion, put it in writing and I would be happy to enforce the NRCoC. None of them have.

 

[DaveNewcastle]

. . .

Of course, the TM/RPI's are always rude, nasty and make people cry too, just for good measure.

No!
They only behave like that when, by astonishing coincidence, the abused passenger was unable to produce a valid ticket for the journey they were taking.

Under all other circumstances, TM/RPI are a source of good humour, comraderie, and inspiration, or at the very worst, just another indifferent workday contact.

But this question is poorly framed - by definition, the term discretion (from discrete) specifically requires the outcome of the procedure to be freely determined by the particular facts of the matter. i.e. discretion is not consistent. So, just what is the question, please?

 

[Clip]

No!
They only behave like that when, by astonishing coincidence, the abused passenger was unable to produce a valid ticket for the journey they were taking.

Under all other circumstances, TM/RPI are a source of good humour, comraderie, and inspiration, or at the very worst, just another indifferent workday contact.

You're aware that I was being sarcastic...?

 

[455driver]

You're aware that I was being sarcastic...?

I would hazard a guess that yes he did.

 

[Solent&Wessex]

I got so fed up with being told I needed to show discretion by a manager who did not want to have to deal with complaints that I now show discretion to just about everybody - the exceptions are first on a Std (especially if standing in vestibules), split tickets if the train didn't stop there , wrong route if going to board another TOC's train, and no ticket at all, especially if going to Reading.

Otherwise, if the start and finish point are correct I clip it and walk away.

I have told several managers this, and told them if they wanted me to stop using my discretion, put it in writing and I would be happy to enforce the NRCoC. None of them have.

I know how you feel. I would read all the notices in the commercial notice case and sent via the company email stating that this condition should be enforced, anyone travelling at a different time must be charged again, do not except x ticket via y etc etc and go and do as it said. Then somebody would complain about the rude aggressive ticket man who was a bully and made them cry and they feel so scared to even travel by train again and I would have to explain myself to the manager. Who would then say it was my fault for enforcing the conditions and that I should show discretion. I said I did show discretion, but not all the time when it wasn't warranted. But I was basically told that they didn't want any complaints and should do whatever it takes to avoid complaints, and if that involved letting people off, then so be it.

I got the impression that my manager had a target for a maximum number of complaints at the depot, so he wasn't interested in ticket conditions or any of the other notices that came from the commercial departments, only meeting his complaints target.

 

[Clip]

Possibly. Ive got some rotten fever at the moment and cant make head nor tail of most things

 

[BestWestern]

Possibly. Ive got some rotten fever at the moment and cant make head nor tail of most things

Bet you caught it from one of those horrible ticket checking people - they do it on purpose you know... ;D

 

[Tetchytyke]

But I was basically told that they didn't want any complaints and should do whatever it takes to avoid complaints, and if that involved letting people off, then so be it.

And that's the real problem. People know that if they stamp their little feet for long enough then companies will cave in, because it costs more money to enforce the rules than it does to send them fifty quid of "goodwill" vouchers.

It's the same in any walk of life. I deal with complaints in a different setting, and part of my job is advising people how to complaint and whether they have a valid complaint or not. Needless to say it's my fault when I tell them they don't have a leg to stand on, they complain anyway and it gets rejected. There's a steady stream of complaints to my boss that I'm "incompetent" or "unsympathetic" or- my personal favourite- "in the pocket of corporate management". They're so used to their little tantrums working that they don't know how to cope when it doesn't.

There are enough chancers and whingers out there that it becomes really difficult to tell who's taking you for a ride and who's genuine. That's why we end up with so many situations where people who are genuine end up being stung for huge amounts of money; the RPIs have heard the excuses so many times before that they simply don't believe anyone.

 

[maniacmartin]

This thread reminds of a DLR ticket check I witnessed in London, in Zone 3, heading towards Zone 2.

A middle-aged businesswoman pleaded ignorant and was shown discretion when she only had a Z1-2 Travelcard, however when a youth in scruffy clothes presented a Z1-2 Travelcard he was written up for it. I can't help but feel it was because the woman was more likely to make a complaint, or that because of her age it was somehow more likely to be a genuine mistake. I believe she was well aware of what she was doing though.

Incidents like this really get my back up. I always have valid tickets, yet I'm constantly harrassed by staff who claim they aren't valid. However, if I was middle-aged and wearing formal clothes, I would get discretion and not even need to buy a valid ticket.

 

[Clip]

Bet you caught it from one of those horrible ticket checking people - they do it on purpose you know... ;D

Ha ha! Its been a while since I've been anywhere to have me ticket checked apart from LO the other day but that was by a MOBI device. Though as I find often on there they never ask to see my photocard.

 

[TheEdge]

Incidents like this really get my back up. I always have valid tickets, yet I'm constantly harrassed by staff who claim they aren't valid. However, if I was middle-aged and wearing formal clothes, I would get discretion and not even need to buy a valid ticket.

Which is why I make sure if I'm in a non discretionary mood then everyone gets no discretion. In fact I quite like getting the well dressed middle aged or the missing SNR card, as one of the awful young people its a nice karmic feeling!

 

[6Gman]

This thread reminds of a DLR ticket check I witnessed in London, in Zone 3, heading towards Zone 2.

A middle-aged businesswoman pleaded ignorant and was shown discretion when she only had a Z1-2 Travelcard, however when a youth in scruffy clothes presented a Z1-2 Travelcard he was written up for it. I can't help but feel it was because the woman was more likely to make a complaint, or that because of her age it was somehow more likely to be a genuine mistake. I believe she was well aware of what she was doing though.

Incidents like this really get my back up. I always have valid tickets, yet I'm constantly harrassed by staff who claim they aren't valid. However, if I was middle-aged and wearing formal clothes, I would get discretion and not even need to buy a valid ticket.

Doesn't this sometimes work the other way? The middle-aged female passenger gets done, the youth (especially if travelling with mates) is let off.

 

[maniacmartin]

Doesn't this sometimes work the other way? The middle-aged female passenger gets done, the youth (especially if travelling with mates) is let off.

Probably, however I have not personally witnessed it

 

[Starmill]

Incidents like this really get my back up. I always have valid tickets, yet I'm constantly harrassed by staff who claim they aren't valid. However, if I was middle-aged and wearing formal clothes, I would get discretion and not even need to buy a valid ticket.

I feel like this all the time. No ticket clerk will take anything on the word of someone who looks like me. I always got less cheek and more correct tickets when I was wearing a suit than I ever do now too. It's just wrong...

 

[LowLevel]

I let most people walk because my employer has made it quite clear they don't give a toss as long as NPS scores are up - they pay me to do the job how they tell me. Random ENCTS passes? Fine. Advances 8 hours away from booked train? No worries. If you're rude, threaten me or are stupid enough to refuse to give me even a false name and address when asked (get a life is my pet hate phrase) - error. I'll see the issue through to standing for 30 minutes to have you dragged off by a constable regardless of what control are squawking about. Being rude to the big, 6ft plus, generally quite jolly train guard is the stupidest thing you can imagine. Because I call your bluff every time regardless if you're a group of young lads or a business type. Done a few years on and not lost yet and other volatile jobs before that.

Don't hide in the bog either because that stops legit folk from using them. The door magically unlocking/air isolating/MCB tripping often offends.

 

[170401]

Discretion is becoming a major problem on the railways. Companies and managers are encouraging it on the qt in an effort to keep complaints down and appease the public. Gatelines are ensuring the vast majority of ticketless travel is countered so the companies can afford to pay lip service to fraud prevention. Here in Scotland the courts now largely refuse to prosecute fare evasion because of 'discretion' (When was the last time you heard of someone being taken to court by the railways in Scotland) seeing it now as a commercial issue and a civil matter.

In Scotland anyway the NRCoC is no longer worth the paper it was written on. So now we are starting to set precedent and send out the message that you can really do what you like on the railways no one will challenge it and even if they do nothing will happen or you may get £5 of goodwill vouchers.

Incidently a Scotrail guard was recently thrown through a cab door for failing to show 'discretion'* where others had done before.

*For discretion read - Let the a*she*le away with it!

 

[jon0844]

Doesn't this sometimes work the other way? The middle-aged female passenger gets done, the youth (especially if travelling with mates) is let off.

It certainly does. Group of kids in first class with NO tickets at all, let off and (lone) RPI says he'll just give a warning this time, but has no problem showing no discretion to older lady on the same train straight after. No doubt the conflict avoidance overriding any desire to do his job. Nobody should have been let off.

Sure the group could have met a group of RPIs or even BTP, but they didn't. Discretion will hardly make them rush to do the right thing next time.

 

[hassaanhc]

Discretion is becoming a major problem on the railways. Companies and managers are encouraging it on the qt in an effort to keep complaints down and appease the public. Gatelines are ensuring the vast majority of ticketless travel is countered so the companies can afford to pay lip service to fraud prevention. Here in Scotland the courts now largely refuse to prosecute fare evasion because of 'discretion' (When was the last time you heard of someone being taken to court by the railways in Scotland) seeing it now as a commercial issue and a civil matter.

In Scotland anyway the NRCoC is no longer worth the paper it was written on. So now we are starting to set precedent and send out the message that you can really do what you like on the railways no one will challenge it and even if they do nothing will happen or you may get £5 of goodwill vouchers.

Incidently a Scotrail guard was recently thrown through a cab door for failing to show 'discretion'* where others had done before.

*For discretion read - Let the a*she*le away with it!

And if a complaint doesn't work then they go to the media where the "nasty evil TOC" gets hung out and obviously loses in the court of public opinion for enforcing the rules

 

[170401]

Discretion will hardly make them rush to do the right thing next time.

This hits the nail on the head! Without negative consequences their is no capacity for people to learn form their mistakes. one argument put out is that people make mistakes (As if we've to say, ah well don't worry about it). I've made plenty of mistakes in my life and paid dearly for many of them but at least I've learnt from them and not made them again, same can't be said for the many repeat offenders I come across in the course of my duties!

 

[dcsprior]

As a passenger, I'd take "discretion" to mean bending the rules if a strict application of the rules would seem to be overly harsh to an outsider and/or to make up for less than perfect service from the railway.

I believe that in all the hypothetical circumstances below, a passenger is travelling without a valid ticket, but I'd bet that most laypeople would not consider that the passenger has done anything wrong:

1. Passenger with advance ticket for travel on a train leaving at 09:40 arrives at station at 09:15. They see the 09:40 is significantly delayed, but there is another train departing on time at 09:20. The passenger jumps on the 09:20
2. Same scenario as above, but passenger has an off-peak (/etc) ticket not valid until after 09:30
3. Same scenario as above, but passenger has a TOC-specific ticket which is not valid on the 09:20
4. Two friends are travelling to York on advance tickets with connections at Edinburgh, one is coming from Polmont and one from Dalgety Bay. The train from Polmont is delayed and the passenger from the on-time Dalgety Bay train waits for their friend and also gets on a later train to York.
5. Someone has bought a pair of tickets discounted with a Two Together Railcard but due to something coming up at the last minute only one of them is able to travel. The passenger reasons that they've paid 1.333 times the invidual ticket cost so must be OK to travel (holding both tickets), and gets on the train without checking.
6. Passenger has lost their print@home ticket, but has a laptop/tablet/phone with them which can display it so it can be scanned.
7. Passenger has a railcard-discounted advance ticket from Linlithgow to London, and when the conductor comes down the train they realise they don't have their railcard with them. They ask for a single from LIN-EDB and say they'll buy a replacement railcard at Edinburgh (which is difficult to doubt, as they've still got the long & expensive leg to come)

 

[Moonshot]

And that's the real problem. People know that if they stamp their little feet for long enough then companies will cave in, because it costs more money to enforce the rules than it does to send them fifty quid of "goodwill" vouchers.

It's the same in any walk of life. I deal with complaints in a different setting, and part of my job is advising people how to complaint and whether they have a valid complaint or not. Needless to say it's my fault when I tell them they don't have a leg to stand on, they complain anyway and it gets rejected. There's a steady stream of complaints to my boss that I'm "incompetent" or "unsympathetic" or- my personal favourite- "in the pocket of corporate management". They're so used to their little tantrums working that they don't know how to cope when it doesn't.

There are enough chancers and whingers out there that it becomes really difficult to tell who's taking you for a ride and who's genuine. That's why we end up with so many situations where people who are genuine end up being stung for huge amounts of money; the RPIs have heard the excuses so many times before that they simply don't believe anyone.

This is an excellent post, and in fact I came across a lad not so long back who had a free travel voucher from Northern. I couldnt help but listen to a conversation he was having by phone with what appeared to be his mobile phone supplier.....it was embarrassing to say the least but he appeared to get some sort of refund on his tariff.

 

[falcon]

As always the answer to a lot of this lies with a management and ATOC(a shambles) who have no understanding of revenue protection and the placing of proper procedures and rules to prevent situations of "discretion".

Discretion has appeared as a result of a bad ticketing structure and week management that attempt to abrogate their responsibilities onto the front line staff.

A proper system of work is where the employee carries out the instructions of the employer who has fair and proper ticketing policy and structure in place.

Discretion is just about eliminated from the ticket checking procedure in such a case.

The fare would be pursed to it's conclusion ultimately arrest by BTP for 3 fails.

Any appeals are then dealt with in another arena by different people.

That removes the employee from:

Effectively making the rules up to fit the occasion and or individuals being dealt with differently as result of:

Stronger or more articulate personalities and differing appearances and social standing:

Prejudices that the employee may hold.

The term discretion means "do what you want", you decide. That is not a proper structured system of applying a ticketing policy.

:roll:

 

[yorkie]

As a passenger, I'd take "discretion" to mean bending the rules if a strict application of the rules would seem to be overly harsh to an outsider and/or to make up for less than perfect service from the railway.

I believe that in all the hypothetical circumstances below, a passenger is travelling without a valid ticket, but I'd bet that most laypeople would not consider that the passenger has done anything wrong:

1. Passenger with advance ticket for travel on a train leaving at 09:40 arrives at station at 09:15. They see the 09:40 is significantly delayed, but there is another train departing on time at 09:20. The passenger jumps on the 09:20
2. Same scenario as above, but passenger has an off-peak (/etc) ticket not valid until after 09:30
3. Same scenario as above, but passenger has a TOC-specific ticket which is not valid on the 09:20
4. Two friends are travelling to York on advance tickets with connections at Edinburgh, one is coming from Polmont and one from Dalgety Bay. The train from Polmont is delayed and the passenger from the on-time Dalgety Bay train waits for their friend and also gets on a later train to York.
5. Someone has bought a pair of tickets discounted with a Two Together Railcard but due to something coming up at the last minute only one of them is able to travel. The passenger reasons that they've paid 1.333 times the invidual ticket cost so must be OK to travel (holding both tickets), and gets on the train without checking.
6. Passenger has lost their print@home ticket, but has a laptop/tablet/phone with them which can display it so it can be scanned.
7. Passenger has a railcard-discounted advance ticket from Linlithgow to London, and when the conductor comes down the train they realise they don't have their railcard with them. They ask for a single from LIN-EDB and say they'll buy a replacement railcard at Edinburgh (which is difficult to doubt, as they've still got the long & expensive leg to come)

The vast majority of Guards would apply common sense and not penalise the customer in those circumstances.

 

[Tracky]

On a route I work over we have the insane situation where there are three routes and three sets of fares. We have an any permitted fare valid on our services, a route specific fare for the longer direct route and a TOC specific fare for a third route which involves a change.

The setter of the route specific fares has chosen a routing point which will be unfamiliar to anybody who does not know the line. Having said that at least they can be excessed.

The setter of the TOC specific fare has been very clever. They operate ticket machines at one end of the route which list their fares at the top of the screen, they are the cheapest yet run less than 20% of the journey options with no direct services. In my view their practices bring the industry into disrepute, and other than profits all they achieve is to cause problems for the staff on the ground.