Discretion about not leaving passenger stranded?

[bb21]

I'm currently on the last northbound EMT service 1F83 from London St Pancras just leaving Kettering. At Bedford, two guys got on wishing to go to Nuneaton and was promptly informed that there no more trains tonight and that the furtherst they could go was Leicester. As it turned out, they had London Midland Only tickets and were therefore asked to buy a new ticket. Being over £25 each, they had no money to pay, and as a result were asked to get off at Wellingborough. I'm just wondering that with Wellingborough being in the middle of nowhere, wouldn't it have been better to allow them to go to Leicester while issuing an UPFN? I mean that way the passenger would presumably have more options, as i think one of the guys can get a lift sorted out for them both from there, while also presumably bring in extra revenue for the TOC? I'm not criticising what the guard did as she was very nice actually. I just want to know what people's opinions are on this. Guards, if you had similar situations before, what did you do?

 

[Anvil1984]

All depends on the attitude of the passenger, if they seem willing to accept a UPFN and have ID then I'll take them further but if they dont to either then its off at next stop

 

[bb21]

I was wondering because they weren't offered that option. No one was being gobby and all that

 

[yorkie]

I think more information would be needed. Where were their tickets from and to? and what was the reason for changing their plans to use a different route?

If they had no money whatsoever and realised that their tickets obviously were not going to be valid, then that's a possible MG11.

On the other hand, if they thought they may be able to excess (a reasonable assumption as route specific tickets can be, and some guards/RPIs do issue excesses for TOC-specific tickets) and had some money but not quite the £25 required, then a UPFN would seem sensible.

As for the issue of duty of care, it would depend on the age and vulnerability, e.g. if they did that to a child, disabled or elderly customer then the guard would be in hot water.

 

[bb21]

I suppose I just felt a bit sorry for them. They did seem genuinely stuck and maybe missed their last BDM - BLY/MKC train. They claimed that they were told by a member of staff to use this train. As to whether that 'member of staff' was aware of the ticket they held, I doubt it very much. Maybe he/she assumed that they didn't already have a ticket and would use whichever train to get near Nuneaton and buy their tickets accordingly.

The ticket held? Not sure, but definitely a London Midland Only fare. Nuneaton - Bedford Stations seems to have such a fare, so I strongly suspect that was the ticket they held.

What happened to them after getting off at Wellingborough? They were advised to speak to the station manager but I doubt they would have got very far unless it was a missed connection at Bedford.

 

[BestWestern]

Hey All,

Fresh new poster here, be gentle lol I was wondering, was that station manned? I'm assuming not if it was late and in the middle of nowhere? FGW Guards have been instructed (well some of us, anyway) not to detrain people at any unstaffed station over a fares or ticketing issue - it's OK if they are posing a danger/threat but otherwise apparently it's a 'no no'. According to a pretty well informed manager, this can put the Guard in a legal muddle if said ejected passenger then does something stupid, such as walking down the track and getting hit, as it is OUR fault because we left them somewhere that they had no intention of being. If there are no staff and thus nobody to continue the 'Duty of Care' then we have failed in that duty. Sounds a bit crazy but allegedly this type of unfortunate situation has actually happened, somewhere. Makes you think... :-?

 

[bb21]

I guess Wellingborough would have been staffed as they were told to speak to the station manager so I suppose that he would have been there, maybe locking up the station after the last passenger service, ie. us, leaves.

 

[Wyvern]

On Saturdays Wellingborough is staffed until 2335

 

[Flamingo]

1. From an FGW point of view, we're not supposed to eject passengers at an unmanned station, as Bestwestern (welcome, BTW) has said there is the risk of them walking down the tracks or doing something else stupid. However, if passengers wish to leave at the next station, I'm not able to stop them.

2. We're also not supposed to take the last penny from someone in case they need it for bus, etc. I don't really like to publicise this, as it is an obvious get-out clause for scrotes, but I interpret it that if I am offered a card to pay first and the card is unacceptable, if their destination has a bank machine, then I will take cash if card declined.

3. I've never been able to get to the bottom of if we are supposed to offer an UPFN or not. The strict interpretation of UPFN is that it is supposed to be charged to the next manned station and then the passenger has to leave the train except in exceptional circumstances, so my interpretation of it is that they are not obliged to be offered, as the passenger should be kicked off in the usual run of the thing. The purpose of them is to get revenue for the railway, not provide a source of potentially free travel. Again, depends on how vulnerable I deem the individual to be, and what the story is. To be honest, if I am doing a UPFN, I always do it to destination, ason the lines I work, if I feel a UPFN is appropriate as opposed to kicking them off for revenue to deal with, then it is an exceptional circumstance!

4. If a minor (or claiming to be), then we are not supposed to put them off, ticket or no. Again, if handing them over to the care of BTP, this is acceptable, in my book


Just to add, without the book in front of me I can't quote it exactly, but if it is a genuine case, then a ticket office can issue a ticket if someone at the end of the phone can pay for it, or an equivalent, if ID can be provided. I can't find the exact thing, but it can be done.
As a general rule however, if someone has missed their last train or connection outside of reasons that are the railways fault, then tough. Time to ring Mum or Dad and say "Come and get me"

 

[BestWestern]

Hi Flamingo, thanks for the welcome

Always entertaining to hear another's comments on the dreaded UPFN, a minefield indeed! And most certainly an invitation to the local lowlife to travel for free, it may as well be called a Concessionary Travel Pass lol :-x When people board a train and their first move is to request to be issued with one, that's when we can safely say that system is not quite right in my view. Do you have any knowledge on the popular rumour that UPFN's below a certain value aren't processed due to costs outweighing revenue?!

 

[Flamingo]

No idea, but don't forget they are a useful tool in other ways. I've used them before now to identify scrotes who then had their commuppence in other ways, as it gives something that can be handed on to BTP, who are sometimes interested that individuals who might be under restrictions such as ASBO's or bail are out and about at certain times...

 

[BestWestern]

That is indeed a very good point, assuming that said lowlife is dim enough to provide any real-life details, or has sufficient details, like somewhere to live, to give I suppose :roll: I have to say I'm not a big fan of UFPN's and do tend to prefer the option of making sure they keep to their inevitable assurance that they're only going to the next stop, which in my experience is more often than not the case. Though not always, of course. It's heartening to find an increased revenue effort around Brizzle recently, all this paperwork is meaningless without an occasional bit of muscle for them to contend with

 

[ChrisCooper]

Particularly in this day and age, leaving anyone stranded is a bit of a minefield. If anything happens (whether from the persons actions or something out of their control) then the staff responsible and the TOC are likely to be in very hot water, not just legally but also from the media. Whilst vulnerability is something often brought up, it's not easy to tell who is potentially vulnerable and who is not.

From a media point of view you would need their full background and life story. Do they have children or worse grandchildren (regardless of age)? Are they a current member of the armed forces or a veteran? Do they have any kind of reasonably dramatic sounding medical condition? Have they survived any potentially life threatening event (particularly something well known that sounds good)? Plus the most important one, are they in any way involved in journalism or politics?

The Daily Mail/Sun is going to love it when that drunk bloke without a ticket you throw off turns out to be a Diabetic Grandad (in his 40s) Iraq War veteran train crash survivor who's a local counciller and a writer for the Daily Mail/Sun.

 

[Flamingo]

That's just the risk we take every time we say "Can I see your ticket please?"
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

That is indeed a very good point, assuming that said lowlife is dim enough to provide any real-life details, or has sufficient details, like somewhere to live, to give I suppose :roll: I have to say I'm not a big fan of UFPN's and do tend to prefer the option of making sure they keep to their inevitable assurance that they're only going to the next stop, which in my experience is more often than not the case. Though not always, of course. It's heartening to find an increased revenue effort around Brizzle recently, all this paperwork is meaningless without an occasional bit of muscle for them to contend with

Don't forget, it's do them a UPFN to the next manned station, THEN kick them off. You are disrupting them AND getting the money from them (eventually).

No commission on UPFN's though.

 

[Mojo]

Everyone in this thread has made some very good points, but I do worry about the situation where the staff are actually in the wrong and the ticket is valid. Probably not applicable in the clear cut case in the OP, nor in instances where no ticket is held so probably quite uncommon.

I have been accused of travelling off-route, only once (the route was valid in the routeing guide (RG) and I wouldn't say what I was doing was particularly unreasonable (going by the old pre-RG rules), either) but I stood my ground and refused to pay and requested he either contact his control office or issued me an UPFN because I knew I was in the right. After completing his ticket check the conductor did check and at least he had the courtesy to return to me and apologise for the trouble he'd caused, so the situation was resolved amicably, but it does beg the question what would happen with the more stubborn staff who refuse to check or where the control office get it wrong (posts by kwvr45 passim).

 

[BestWestern]

Don't forget, it's do them a UPFN to the next manned station, THEN kick them off. You are disrupting them AND getting the money from them (eventually).

No commission on UPFN's though.

I'd have to be completely honest here and admit that, unless the next stop is a long way off, I leave the UPFN pad in the bag and just settle for them getting off. By the time they've reeled off the imaginary addresses of all seven dwarves, Snow White and her uncle's vet's sister, the brakes are in step 2 and you're rushing to key in! Time is something they know how to waste very easily, the ba$tard$! :-x

 

[Flamingo]

Usually the upfn is saved for the longer runs, I never bother with them on the Bri-Bth stretch, for example.

 

[BestWestern]

...indeed, or particularly TRO - WSB/WMN. I've often pondered why it isn't just advertised as a free community shuttle service WMN - TRO tbh

 

[Flamingo]

I know what you mean. Locking the toilets all out of use can help

 

[BestWestern]

Sometimes more enjoyable to wait and then Iso the disabled loo door with a group of not-so-smug scroats inside though How it amuses me that they always choose the disabled to hide in when it's so much easier to fish them out of, they just don't learn!!

- Assuming of course that one has the comparative luxury of a '58. My most recent bog-hoggers were on a 150/1 with their marvellous worn-to-buggery plastic lock effort, couldn't have opened it up if I'd wanted to I didn't want, it was a late nighter from WSM and they're very welcome to a stinking bog between three of them for a couple of stops, the morons. :roll:

 

[185]

UPFN, or at that time of night, "you naughty passenger. Very bad. Goodbye; ie. the end."

Having seen some of the ex-MML guards, one or two are brilliant, most are awful. A while ago one had a go at my friend using a staff ticket as it was routed wrongly, due to a derailment. She excessed him £46. A few rows further up the train, she managed to upset someone else, who grabbed / assaulted her. She ran to my friend for help, who despite being one to always help other staff out, got up and walked away.

Some people look for trouble, and what goes around usually comes around.

 

[barrykas]

Just to add, without the book in front of me I can't quote it exactly, but if it is a genuine case, then a ticket office can issue a ticket if someone at the end of the phone can pay for it, or an equivalent, if ID can be provided. I can't find the exact thing, but it can be done.

That'd be a SILK (Stranded Individual/s Location Known), and most TOCs require the person paying for the ticket to do so at a station.

According to The Manual, Scotrail, Island Line and Southern will accept card payments over the phone at stations, and FGW will accept them through Customer Services/Telesales.

The only tickets available are an Anytime or Anytime Day Single (with Child or Railcard discount if applicable) for immediate travel, and there's a £10 admin charge on top. This was instituted due to people abusing the procedure to book Apex style tickets a week in advance(!)

So if, for example, the passenger was stranded in London and needed to get to Birmingham, their options would be a £42.00 Single on London Midland, £51.00 on Chiltern or £74.50 Any Permitted.

Cheers,

Barry

 

[DarloRich]

That'd be a SILK (Stranded Individual/s Location Known), and most TOCs require the person paying for the ticket to do so at a station.

According to The Manual, Scotrail, Island Line and Southern will accept card payments over the phone at stations, and FGW will accept them through Customer Services/Telesales.

The only tickets available are an Anytime or Anytime Day Single (with Child or Railcard discount if applicable) for immediate travel, and there's a £10 admin charge on top. This was instituted due to people abusing the procedure to book Apex style tickets a week in advance(!)

So if, for example, the passenger was stranded in London and needed to get to Birmingham, their options would be a £42.00 Single on London Midland, £51.00 on Chiltern or £74.50 Any Permitted.

Cheers,

Barry

I have seen that recently at Darlington. A lad was stranded at leeds without the ability to get home, sounded like he had been beaten up/robbed. He got hold of his mother via BTP, who he had the good sense to hunt down, and they suggested she went to Darlignton and offer to pay his ticket. The duty manager spoke to her, called leeds, who issued a ticket on his say so and he then took the money via the card machine.

 

[Flamingo]

That'd be a SILK (Stranded Individual/s Location Known), and most TOCs require the person paying for the ticket to do so at a station.

According to The Manual, Scotrail, Island Line and Southern will accept card payments over the phone at stations, and FGW will accept them through Customer Services/Telesales.

The only tickets available are an Anytime or Anytime Day Single (with Child or Railcard discount if applicable) for immediate travel, and there's a £10 admin charge on top. This was instituted due to people abusing the procedure to book Apex style tickets a week in advance(!)

So if, for example, the passenger was stranded in London and needed to get to Birmingham, their options would be a £42.00 Single on London Midland, £51.00 on Chiltern or £74.50 Any Permitted.

Cheers,

Barry

That's the thing!

 

[yorkie]

The only tickets available are an Anytime or Anytime Day Single (with Child or Railcard discount if applicable) for immediate travel, and there's a £10 admin charge on top. This was instituted due to people abusing the procedure to book Apex style tickets a week in advance(!)

Is that a £10 admin fee per transaction or per ticket? I ask because Anytime tickets are often more expensive when you go further (the railways are like the opposite of shops) e.g. York to Chesterfield is £20 more than York to Dronfield (infact that one is so ridiculous it's cheaper to pay the admin fee twice, or get a taxi for the last 5 miles!)

 

[Flamingo]

It's a "get you home" thing for stranded individuals, if they are that stuck they will be considering their options I guess, and if a taxi or jumping in a car to collect them is a better option then I guess that's a decision mum and dad will have to make.

 

[Greenback]

That'd be a SILK (Stranded Individual/s Location Known)

Well, I've learnt something else now! Despite all the SILK's I was involved in at Reading a decade ago, I never knew what it sttod for! Thanks Barry!

 

[rmt-driver]

So what .. at that time of night who even cares. They are obviously not fare dodgers as they have A ticket ! just let them get on with it... gee

 

[Eric]

So what .. at that time of night who even cares. They are obviously not fare dodgers as they have A ticket ! just let them get on with it... gee

Amen to that mate.

 

[barrykas]

Is that a £10 admin fee per transaction or per ticket? I ask because Anytime tickets are often more expensive when you go further (the railways are like the opposite of shops) e.g. York to Chesterfield is £20 more than York to Dronfield (infact that one is so ridiculous it's cheaper to pay the admin fee twice, or get a taxi for the last 5 miles!)

Doesn't say in The Manual, as that assumes you'll just sell one ticket for the entire journey, but I'd assume it's per transaction, on the grounds that the difference between issuing one ticket and two is negligible.

Cheers,

Barry