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Disclosing spent convictions

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AlterEgo

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Following on from this post, which contains the advice:

That said, a conviction is a matter of public record and information about convictions can come to light in other ways and it is possible that details of it could be disclosed on Enhanced DBS checks. It is always best to be honest if you are asked if you have a conviction.

I think the forum ought to be better acquainted with people's civil rights under the Rehabilitation of Offenders Act.

Broadly, unless the job/role/etc is exempt from the provisions of the Act, once convictions become spent, they are nobody else's business.

Employers/insurers/etc who ask about spent convictions when not entitled may be breaking the law. If a role is covered by the act, it is unlawful for an employer to refuse to employ a person (or dismiss an existing employee) because the individual has a spent caution or conviction. It is also unlawful for an organisation to knowingly carry out (or enable someone else to obtain) a DBS check on a person for a role which is covered by the act. If a role is covered by the act, the employer is only legally entitled to carry out a basic criminal check known as a Basic Disclosure (provided by DBS) which will reveal only unspent convictions.

Ex-offenders are entitled to not disclose spent convictions when protected by the Act, and are legally protected even if they lie about their spent convictions; the Act gives people the right to do this.

It may be true that if a material fact comes to light - say, an employer reads an old news article - the employer might, in some cases, change their opinion and discriminate against an employee in an indirect way. But we still wouldn't advise people applying for jobs to out themselves as gay, bi, lesbian or trans. Nor would we say they should be open and honest about whether they are, say, an Irish Traveller, or Jewish, or divorced, or any other thing protected under the law but for which people might be discriminated against "just in case". Those things are for people to decide for themselves and there are protections for all those people, as there are for ex-offenders too.

People come to this part of the forum to understand their rights, and they should be very mindful that they have rights under the law which have existed for a long time. It isn't for us to advise they "out" themselves when they are protected for the express purpose of rehabilitating them back into society. There is no way we should tell anyone with a piffling Bylaw conviction that they should be going around telling people about it once it's spent.

As a matter of course I think posters should direct people to Unlock who are the principal charity in this area, giving impartial advice about one's rights and responsibilities as an ex-offender. (One thing they don't say is "you should tell everyone who asks about your spent convictions"!)
 
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plugwash

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IIRC US government policy is that they don't care about foreign law on spent convictions and if they discover you have lied to them about your convictions when applying to enter the US you can be permanently banned.
 

Pushpit

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Broadly, unless the job/role/etc is exempt from the provisions of the Act, once convictions become spent, they are nobody else's business.

[snip]
People come to this part of the forum to understand their rights, and they should be very mindful that they have rights under the law which have existed for a long time. It isn't for us to advise they "out" themselves when they are protected for the express purpose of rehabilitating them back into society. There is no way we should tell anyone with a piffling Bylaw conviction that they should be going around telling people about it once it's spent.

As a matter of course I think posters should direct people to Unlock who are the principal charity in this area, giving impartial advice about one's rights and responsibilities as an ex-offender. (One thing they don't say is "you should tell everyone who asks about your spent convictions"!)
People come on here to seek advice, typically quite urgently, often with anxiety, and then ask the simple question "will I get a criminal record?" or "will it show up on a DBS?". The first question can give a simple answer, if found guilty in court it's a yes, and that clearly comes as a surprise to some. The answer to second question is usually no, but there are complications.

The first complication relates your first quote above - the scope for disclosing spent convictions has in the wake of the Soham inquiry has grown to much of the NHS, education, social services, police, army, civil service - though not all roles. These, as you will appreciate, are among the largest employment sectors. Spent convictions are an issue in these areas, but as someone who works in the NHS I can definitely confirm that failing to disclose a conviction is massively worse than some piffling byelaw conviction for an out of date railcard. Or even industrial scale short faring, though that would be a problem in some sensitive roles.

HR law, and HR practice in real life, means that an employer of any size will not break the law and ask for spent convictions for the majority (but not great majority) of roles. Anyone discriminated against like that would risk the employer with all sorts of legal, professional and financial consequences, if you are asked about Spent convictions illegally. If a spent conviction was declared under the Act, it must still be handled within particular boundaries.

As a good general guide, certainly one we follow in the NHS, if spent convictions have to be disclosed, we say so clearly and almost always make direct reference to the Rehabilitation of Offenders Act 1974. NHS Jobs, the main recruitment machinery, has a whole section on this that has to be navigated before we can put a job online. I suspect all other legitimate employers will also link back to this legislation, which otherwise exists to protect those who are ready for rehabilitation. If someone asks for all convictions to be declared and did not reference this legislation, then spent convictions should not be mentioned, in my opinion.

Separately there is a unnecessary paranoia about this area, as I like to point out, nearly a third of men have a criminal record, usually spent, covering motoring offences, cannabis use, drunk and disorderly etc. We've had a recent Attorney General getting multiple speeding convictions, staying in office, ending up as Victims' Commissioner (so representing those who are damaged by crime), plus getting a DBE along the way. So the idea, often expressed, that a conviction will wreck someone's life is way, way off beam.

But it is not helped by universities giving broad brush statements and requiring DBS out of an excess of caution, just because there is some work experience aspect to a course, or because there is the potential (usually unfulfilled) for a vulnerable adult to be in a classroom.

In the context of the questions asked in this forum, it's a balance between giving a fair answer, an accurate answer, soothing anxiety. I don't think bouncing people to Unlock or NACRO is always the best idea, otherwise we would bounce all queries about being prosecuted, SJPN and HMCTS off to similar legal help organisations. There are people here who know the law, know legal processes, know how courts work and know how Disclosure and Barring works.

But otherwise your post is a useful reminder to try and put a few sentences of context into these queries whenever it is needed.
 

island

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IIRC US government policy is that they don't care about foreign law on spent convictions and if they discover you have lied to them about your convictions when applying to enter the US you can be permanently banned.
Whilst that is correct, it should also be noted that the question they ask is not "do you have any convictions".

There are two relevant questions, which are:
  1. Have you ever been arrested or convicted for a crime that resulted in serious damage to property, or serious harm to another person or government authority?
  2. Have you ever violated any law related to possessing, using, or distributing illegal drugs?
I have added emphasis to point 1. It seems most unlikely to me that any ticketing offence would come under it. Nor would an out-of-court settlement, which does not constitute an arrest or conviction.
 

Lockwood

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One of the things I do is software development. We have been told repeatedly about the importance of declaring interactions with the police.

But the company doesn't want the declaration, it needs to go to an external vetting agency who will then update the company as needed (I remember one tester who failed probation because their vetting failed due to a previous assault conviction)

We had been given examples of things to declare - *any* formal communication with police, including as a complainant or witness, getting flashed by a camera (even before a NIP appears)


However, I did manage to get a waiver from the vetting agency for that bit... One of the other things I do in ambulance work. Which involves getting flashed by cameras a lot, having formal conversations with police... So my vetting instruction is "Tell us if you are actually suspected of a crime"



Now, most of the people I see here are "I want to do medicine/law/finance", not "I want to do specific software". I don't think the application itself mentioned the Rehabilitation of Offenders Act, but the vetting did require everything shirt of inside leg measurement
 

jumble

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Whilst that is correct, it should also be noted that the question they ask is not "do you have any convictions".

There are two relevant questions, which are:
  1. Have you ever been arrested or convicted for a crime that resulted in serious damage to property, or serious harm to another person or government authority?
  2. Have you ever violated any law related to possessing, using, or distributing illegal drugs?
I have added emphasis to point 1. It seems most unlikely to me that any ticketing offence would come under it. Nor would an out-of-court settlement, which does not constitute an arrest or conviction.
I suspect that this only applies to Visa Waiver but not to visa applications?
If I am correct it makes sense in that
USA can be more lenient on temporary visitors
USA CBP have no realistic way of knowing about UK convictions unless they go looking via Interpol
( Unlike Canada and USA where the records are shared)


The US embassy here in UK have the following to say on the matter
If you have ever been arrested, cautioned and/or convicted of an offense anywhere in the world, you are required to declare it when applying for a visa.
 

AlterEgo

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One of the things I do is software development. We have been told repeatedly about the importance of declaring interactions with the police.

But the company doesn't want the declaration, it needs to go to an external vetting agency who will then update the company as needed (I remember one tester who failed probation because their vetting failed due to a previous assault conviction)

We had been given examples of things to declare - *any* formal communication with police, including as a complainant or witness, getting flashed by a camera (even before a NIP appears)


However, I did manage to get a waiver from the vetting agency for that bit... One of the other things I do in ambulance work. Which involves getting flashed by cameras a lot, having formal conversations with police... So my vetting instruction is "Tell us if you are actually suspected of a crime"



Now, most of the people I see here are "I want to do medicine/law/finance", not "I want to do specific software". I don't think the application itself mentioned the Rehabilitation of Offenders Act, but the vetting did require everything shirt of inside leg measurement
The application should have made clear the role was exempt from the provisions of the Act if it requires this level of vetting. I assume the company designs software for sensitive uses such as law enforcement, childcare, monitoring of vulnerable people etc.

If you don't know whether the role is actually exempt or not or whether the company is acting legally, this really just underscores how poorly the protections in the ROA Act are understood by people. Those are civil rights!
 

Pushpit

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Now, most of the people I see here are "I want to do medicine/law/finance", not "I want to do specific software". I don't think the application itself mentioned the Rehabilitation of Offenders Act, but the vetting did require everything shirt of inside leg measurement
If this was a UK company or working under one of the UK jurisdictions then the company has to be very careful here not to breach the relevant legislation, not just the Rehabilitation of Offenders legislation but also the broader protections such as Protected Characteristics. If they are doing something that is effectively discriminating in an unlawful way, I would not want to be the company's General Counsel. It is an issue with some IT and digital service company that do fast start-ups, put processes in place without much thought, then get an HR professional to come in (and have kittens). I suspect this is a unique scenario here, most people are protected by the legislation, even in sensitive roles.
 

jumble

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One, getting flashed by a camera (even before a NIP appears)


H
Does anyone actually declare this in the real world?
It seems to me to be an absurd requirement cooked up by someone with too much time on their hands.
How is a flash of some camera which might easily be flashing at someone coming in the opposite direction or on a motorway be someone else's car be considered to be a formal communication?
 

Ducatist4

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This is probably not relevant to this discussion but interesting non the less - I am a firearms certificate holder. As part of the application process i was asked to disclose any convictions including motoring offences. I had the old equivalent of an SP30 back in the mid 1980's and a failure to display a current excise licence a year or so after (i bought a moped that i was told was taxed but turned out not to be). I declared both but i had no idea of the dates or even the year really.
My application was approved.
A friend also applied but didn't mention a speeding ticket from around the same time - when the Police came round to do their interview they reminded him about his one traffic offence from years ago and refused his application.
 

Titfield

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This is probably not relevant to this discussion but interesting non the less - I am a firearms certificate holder. As part of the application process i was asked to disclose any convictions including motoring offences. I had the old equivalent of an SP30 back in the mid 1980's and a failure to display a current excise licence a year or so after (i bought a moped that i was told was taxed but turned out not to be). I declared both but i had no idea of the dates or even the year really.
My application was approved.
A friend also applied but didn't mention a speeding ticket from around the same time - when the Police came round to do their interview they reminded him about his one traffic offence from years ago and refused his application.

Because as has been said on countless occasions, in many many cases the failure to disclose (either when asked or having agreed in advance to disclose any convictions if and when received) is treated more seriously than the original offence.
 

AlterEgo

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A friend also applied but didn't mention a speeding ticket from around the same time - when the Police came round to do their interview they reminded him about his one traffic offence from years ago and refused his application.
I find it very hard to believe that a firearms licence was refused on the sole grounds that someone forgot they got caught for speeding once, 30+ years ago.
 

island

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I suspect that this only applies to Visa Waiver but not to visa applications?
The question is from the visa waiver program application, yes.

For full visas, the American authorities ask for the production of an ACRO police certificate. This has yet another set of rules, called "stepping-down", to determine when a conviction is removed from the certificate, which is between 5 and 35 years depending on the offence and punishment.
 

Ducatist4

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It absolutely was. They use it as a test of your honesty. If you’ve not fessed up to that then what else are not telling them. In todays risk adverse society the Police would rather play safe and not issue the ticket. It’s all down to the Chief Constables discretion. Some Police Forces take a very heavy handed approach to Firearms licensing. Derbyshire where I am are good but Notts where my friend lives are not so good.
I've had my certificate for over ten years now and I’ve heard of this happening to other people. And much worse treatment as well.
Oh and they will also go through all your social media history they can find and if there is anything that causes them concern you can expect a knock on the door. If a certificate holder get any kind of traffic ticket that gets reported back to the licensing department (my vehicle has a marker against it to show I’m an FAC holder) as do my medical notes with my GP.
 

Lockwood

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If this was a UK company or working under one of the UK jurisdictions then the company has to be very careful here not to breach the relevant legislation, not just the Rehabilitation of Offenders legislation but also the broader protections such as Protected Characteristics. If they are doing something that is effectively discriminating in an unlawful way, I would not want to be the company's General Counsel. It is an issue with some IT and digital service company that do fast start-ups, put processes in place without much thought, then get an HR professional to come in (and have kittens). I suspect this is a unique scenario here, most people are protected by the legislation, even in sensitive roles.
Large company, digested to another large company. Perhaps the advert did mention the Act. It was many years ago, and I am probably so used to seeing it mentioned in job descriptions that I paid no attention to it?
The application should have made clear the role was exempt from the provisions of the Act if it requires this level of vetting. I assume the company designs software for sensitive uses such as law enforcement, childcare, monitoring of vulnerable people etc.
Our software is used by UK and international fire, ambulance, and police services. We also had a military user until that work got moved into the civilian sector. Our adjacent software is used by police services and other critical agencies.
Our wider product portfolio also covers blue light users domestic and abroad, and some work for HMG.

I think the policy has been to vet everyone as high as possible to allow for ease of movement and to make it easier to keep track of (rather that some people getting X, others getting X+Y, just put everyone through X+Y)

Does anyone actually declare this in the real world?
It seems to me to be an absurd requirement cooked up by someone with too much time on their hands.
How is a flash of some camera which might easily be flashing at someone coming in the opposite direction or on a motorway be someone else's car be considered to be a formal communication?

I think there is some common sense. A camera flashed while I was near it but it wasn't me that set it off. A camera flashed me but it was flashing everyone doing any speed...

I got flashed because I was doing such speed that it was appropriate - I think that's what they wanted to know.


As for the tester? I don't know if he failed vetting for the assault conviction, or for not disclosing it.
 

AlterEgo

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Our software is used by UK and international fire, ambulance, and police services. We also had a military user until that work got moved into the civilian sector. Our adjacent software is used by police services and other critical agencies.
So this is exempt from the Act for fairly obvious reasons and yes, you will need vetting!
 

flashberry43

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I have a criminal conviction for drink driving when I was 18, some 13 years ago now. I've travelled to the US multiple times since (upwards 50), without issue.

To add to this, I recently applied for Global Entry which involves getting a police background check - including criminal records - and submitted it to the US authorities.

I was given a conditional approval a few months later, and on arrival to JFK airport had an interview with a CPB officer. He knew about the conviction (due to the background check) and approved my application for global entry, the USA's "most trusted traveller" I now was.

I asked what convictions would bar me through Global Entry, and he was very clear that anything involving drugs or violence to a person or property would.

Therefore, it is reasonable to conclude a mere ticketing matter for US entry isn't an issue and applicants can safely say 'no' to any box on the ESTA form.
 

flashberry43

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Just don't try to go into Canada.
Indeed and I've massively shot myself in the foot there, but I am content with me standing up for their frankly ridiculous approach to rehabilitation.

We do now digress, but for the interests in telling the full story, Canada deems you rehabilitated after five years from conviction if you're happy to pay a fee, or ten years after the end of the sentence with no fee.

I applied after the ten years from conviction took place, but didn't realise it the clock started after the end of the ban (which was 9 months after a course).

I was deemed inadmissible unless I paid a 'rehabilitation fee which immediately rehabilitates you and makes you admissible'.

Something about paying to be rehabilitated really irked me so I flippantly replied, "Well, can I pay twice the amount and do it again so I'm immediately rehabilitated". Suffice to say I was met with a no and further ban!

It has been no big loss at the end of the day; I've held residence visas in China, Australia, Qatar amongst others, am a teacher, and have obtained three degrees since (and no convictions!). One day I'd like to see Canada, but it'll be a case of letting everything simmer down (likely another then years) before I reapply.

Long story short; ticketing issue isn't a problem.
 

AlterEgo

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Spaceship323

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We digress further but that is not correct. British citizens with GBR passports do not need a visa to cross by land into Canada from the USA, nor do they need an eTA.

They must have changed the rules then. I was stopped at the US / Canadian border (at Buffalo) and was refused entry because we didn't have a visa (that's what we were told by border force officers) - in the days before eTA's even existed!
 
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