Disabled scooter user humiliated by Train Manager for using disabled space on GWR service.

[Darandio]

Well done! I wondered how long it would take to make the free speech statement, under two hours it seems.

Now if you'd like to go back and read what I actually posted, and why the thread should be locked because of almost pure speculation where a person's livelihood is at stake please?

And discussion on this corner of t'internet will make no difference to the outcome. What the thread has done is provide some excellent further analysis of the situation.

 

[Robertj21a]

Well done! I wondered how long it would take to make the free speech statement, under two hours it seems.

Now if you'd like to go back and read what I actually posted, and why the thread should be locked because of almost pure speculation where a person's livelihood is at stake please?

Thank you, I'd read that before I posted. I repeat, why should the thread be locked ?. What has happened to free speech ?

Which bit don't you understand ?

 

[Bantamzen]

And discussion on this corner of t'internet will make no difference to the outcome. What the thread has done is provide some excellent further analysis of the situation.

No it hasn't, it has been based on pure speculation with very little actual evidence on the full sequence of events. Furthermore the guard in question, his colleagues, family and indeed even the managers investigating the incident may at some point come across this thread. So it does have the potential to have at least some small effect on the outcome.

If the full facts where available then a meaningful debate could take place. As it is the debate so far is little more than gossip. Tell me, if you were in dispute or under an investigation with your employer, what would you make if a bunch of randoms dreaming up what might have happened?

Thank you, I'd read that before I posted. I repeat, why should the thread be locked ?. What has happened to free speech ?

Which bit don't you understand ?

See my response above, and ask yourself the same question I posed to the previous poster.

 

[maire23]

Okay.
From a disabled persons point of view.
Has anyone thought it may not actually be practical for her to sit in the scooter for a long period of time? Given the likely size and weight of the scooter and being on a moving train- it might have actually not been safe for her to sit in it. Also being disabled myself- I can only tolerate being in my wheelchair for short spaces of time as it is not comfortable however I need it to help me get around so for short spaces of time I can tolerate it but after a while it becomes painful. Has anyone thought this might perhaps be the case here?
Having been in the situation in a train where I have been told to fold my own wheelchair and store it (allegedly this is company policy and when I challenged it was told that the Passenger Assist staff should have done it for me but this was in between stations!) Given the nature of Tanyalee’s Disability and the fact her partner was injured and unable to do it himself meant that folding it just wasn’t possible so what was she supposed to do?
Sadly I have seen too much of the militant buggy brigade who think their giant baby vehicles mean that they have more rights than anyone else. I also understand that it’s not ideal for a new mum to be standing on a moving train with a tiny baby so she should not have been asked to stand and should have been found a seat.
As for her pram, it should have been folded and stored.
I am now beyond being shocked at how disabled people are treated on trains (I’ve had enough awful treatment myself) so im frankly not surprised at what the guard did. Doesn’t make it right of course and rightly some disabled people are fed up of being made to feel like second class citizens when travelling.
The Mumsnet brigade would be creating utter riots had the mum been called out like for wanting to use the disabled bay (oh yes I’ve had that too, booked the disabled bay for my wheelchair, got on the train and there’s a woman with shed loads of kids and a buggy in my space- and I’m the selfish one as I politely asked her to allow me in) so why on earth does this guard think it’s okay to demonise a disabled person?! Is he on some sort of power trip that he’s picking on someone he sees as an easy option?!
Kids are a lifestyle choice. No disabilities are lifestyle choices- my god I would absolutely love to have my Mobility back but it ain’t happening! This government seems dead set on making life as hard as possible for those with disabilities and everywhere we turn there’s some kind of obstacle.
I’m sorry but I’m with Tanyalee on this one. Emotive subject yes and I apologise for my outburst but this is happening too much and it’s always us disabled who get the blame whether we are at fault or not!

 

[Darandio]

No it hasn't, it has been based on pure speculation with very little actual evidence on the full sequence of events.

I disagree, the analysis of footage has been excellent in the second half of the thread.

 

[Darandio]

Has anyone thought it may not actually be practical for her to sit in the scooter for a long period of time?

Indeed, and she wasn't was she? She had been sat in an actual seat and had been asked for the scooter to be moved?

I think there needs to be a better round up of facts here following the subsequent discussion. Many replies seem to still be concentrating on the initial comments in the thread about a woman apparently sat on her scooter and being asked to vacate the area. Turns out it wasn't quite like this at all.

 

[matt_world2004]

Please for the love of God could people read the thread and watch the relevant videos first? Please.

Literally none of what you said was applicable in the case in point, whereby an ambulant, non-wheelchair bound disabled person sitting in a regular train seat had her mobility aid moved for a pram which was being pushed by someone who was not disabled or injured.

Why should a pram user have priority over the wheelchair space in any circumstances?

 

[Darandio]

Why should a pram user have priority over the wheelchair space in any circumstances?

Has anyone suggested it should?

 

[matt_world2004]

Has anyone suggested it should?

So austensibly.the person required the mobility scooter to complete their journey. Through no choice of their own. The pram user is in her situation through a choice.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Rightly so. Having a child or a pram so big it's unsuitable for public transport is a lifestyle choice. Disability isn't

But if the person has chosen to transfer to a seat, their mobility aid becomes simply luggage. Only a wheelchair or other mobility aid with a person in it deserves priority over the wheelchair space, provided due assistance is provided to relocate it.

 

[Darandio]

So austensibly.the person required the mobility scooter to complete their journey. Through no choice of their own. The pram user is in her situation through a choice.

Indeed, and given your handful of contributions to the thread so far, i'm still failing to understand your point?

 

[Ianno87]

So austensibly.the person required the mobility scooter to complete their journey. Through no choice of their own. The pram user is in her situation through a choice.

Is perpetuating the continued existence of the human race and achievement a "choice"?

 

[AlterEgo]

Why should a pram user have priority over the wheelchair space in any circumstances?

Jesus. Read the thread. Especially the bits where I repeatedly say that a pram user doesn’t have priority over a mobility aid placed in the wheelchair space.

This is really hard work.

 

[matt_world2004]

But if the person has chosen to transfer to a seat, their mobility aid becomes simply luggage. Only a wheelchair or other mobility aid with a person in it deserves priority over the wheelchair space, provided due assistance is provided to relocate it.

But the wheelchair was there first. Even if as you described it was luggage. Luggage and prams have equal priority over the wheelchair space.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Why should a pram user have priority over the wheelchair space in any circumstances?

An occupied pram should in my view have priority for the space over an unoccupied mobility aid, provided assistance is provided to fold or relocate said mobility aid. At that point it is simply luggage, requiring no more assistance (or no less assistance) than that person's bag.

 

[maire23]

Indeed, and she wasn't was she? She had been sat in an actual seat and had been asked for the scooter to be moved?

I think there needs to be a better round up of facts here following the subsequent discussion. Many replies seem to still be concentrating on the initial comments in the thread about a woman apparently sat on her scooter and being asked to vacate the area. Turns out it wasn't quite like this at all.

I was actually referring to those saying she should sit in her scooter if she wanted to retain the space.
Apologies- I should have clarified.

 

[Bantamzen]

I disagree, the analysis of footage has been excellent in the second half of the thread.

I would say the footage is incomplete, doesn't give a full picture of the sequence of events from the start of the dispute, and so in my humble opinion analysis of it cannot be considered excellent without the contributors being in possession of the full facts, regardless of their opinion on what appears to have happened. But worse still is some of the speculation still taking place, see a few posts above for an example!!

For what it is worth, and it is worth nothing, from what we see on the video footage the guard appears to have started to try to resolve the matter with the lady's companion seemingly determined to cause conflict. However I, nor anyone else knows what was said at the beginning of the dispute or at any time when footage was not taken or edited out. This is why I refuse to speculate on the circumstances & feel others should not do so too, or the mods temporarily lock the thread until more factual detail is available, or at least until the investigation by GWR is complete.

But that notwithstanding, my point remains. A guard's career is on the line whilst GWR investigate. People involved with this on both sides may have sight of this thread, and regardless of what people think it can potentially effect the result.

 

[Bletchleyite]

But the wheelchair was there first. Even if as you described it was luggage. Luggage and prams have equal priority over the wheelchair space.

I would say prams over luggage provided the other luggage space is not full. Moving away from this situation, if I had my bag in the multipurpose space and someone with a pram boarded I wouldn't be so self-entitled as to refuse to move it to accommodate the pram.

 

[matt_world2004]

Is perpetuating the continued existence of the human race and achievement a "choice"?

This is not the handmaids tale we do not force people to reproduce. 7.5 billion people means if people do not choose to reproduce is hardly a threat to the human race.

 

[bnm]

*If* the mother indeed had an arm injury, then she may not have been capable of holding her child as a result.

She appeared to be managing okay in one of the videos, when the pram was being lifted through the vestibule with the help of the TM.

 

[maire23]

Also what if the person needs to transfer back to their mobility aid at one point? How would they go to the toilet for example if they are unable to mobilise without it?
Or should they just have to wet themselves...
I often have to transfer between a seat and my wheelchair when I’m travelling long distances.

 

[Darandio]

I was actually referring to those saying she should sit in her scooter if she wanted to retain the space.
Apologies- I should have clarified.

No need to apologise to me.

As i've outlined earlier in the thread, it seemed to me that the member of staff just wanted to find a way for everyone to travel. Watching the footage it reinforces this for me, it was done in a kind manner but it all went downhill after that and resulted in a situation that I have already described as indefensible.

As someone with experience, what was your view of how her partner handled things?

 

[bnm]

The National Media seem to have given up on this story today- perhaps they smell a rat?

The BBC must have lost its rodent sniffing ability then.

Tanyalee Davis is on the Jeremy Vine Show this lunchtime on BBC Radio 2.

 

[mrcheek]

the managers investigating the incident may at some point come across this thread. So it does have the potential to have at least some small effect on the outcome.

this is one of the most ridiculous things I have ever read. do you really think somebody supervising a disciplinary hearing is going to be swayed by the views of people online?

 

[father_jack]

I've been reading this saga with interest as I've had the unreasonable and self indulgent passenger stick the camera in my face on numerous occasions.

How busy was the train I wonder ? Was the ding dong over the space causing delay or a lack of safety ?

If anything good is to come out of it it will hopefully that the "mobility scooter" fiasco that exists will be clearly formalised. Too often the obese (whose vehicles are normally are seen parked outside a certain chain of public houses !) turn up playing a disability card and expect to be accommodated. Who were the twits who loaded on the scooter ? (I agree I'm assuming it was driven on.) Would the so called issue have occurred if the scooter was folded as per the scooter and luggage conditions ?

A clear distinction must be made by the industry that a mobility scooter is not a wheelchair. The point that the industry doesn't make is that its not the getting on of the scooter but the getting it off in a hurry.

Finally, the social media team and their management should take care as there might be no trains to talk about next Sunday given their hasty and clearly unfair and uninvestigated judgements of the situation. Twitter operatives are way too quick to say sorry while only in possession of one side of a story and certainly no facts.

 

[AlterEgo]

An occupied pram should in my view have priority for the space over an unoccupied mobility aid, provided assistance is provided to fold or relocate said mobility aid. At that point it is simply luggage, requiring no more assistance (or no less assistance) than that person's bag.

But the pram should not be occupied, it should be folded and stowed. The woman was already carrying the baby, which wasn’t in the pram.

 

[Bantamzen]

this is one of the most ridiculous things I have ever read

Would you care to explain why? Its is generally well accepted that representatives of TOCs will doubtless view the various threads on here, either just in a personal context, or maybe in an official one. So what is to say that someone involved in the decision making process is reading this right now? Humans, all humans are susceptible to suggestion or common consensus and it is entirely possible that some of the "facts" speculated about here could find their way subconsciously into the decision making process. It can and does happen, in my past time as union rep I have come across similar situations in employee / employer disputes. So no, it is not ridiculous.

 

[Deafdoggie]

Would you care to explain why? Its is generally well accepted that representatives of TOCs will doubtless view the various threads on here, either just in a personal context, or maybe in an official one. So what is to say that someone involved in the decision making process is reading this right now? Humans, all humans are susceptible to suggestion or common consensus and it is entirely possible that some of the "facts" speculated about here could find their way subconsciously into the decision making process. It can and does happen, in my past time as union rep I have come across similar situations in employee / employer disputes. So no, it is not ridiculous.

Unless the person conducting the disciplinary hearing is in a sealed room, it is unavoidable they will hear/see/read comments. Are we to deny them internet, TV, newspapers and radio too? If they aren't going to base their views in facts, then it doesn't matter what we write anyway.

 

[Bletchleyite]

But the pram should not be occupied, it should be folded and stowed. The woman was already carrying the baby, which wasn’t in the pram.

There is no harm in it being occupied in preference to the space being used for a piece of unoccupied luggage, and prams often are on trains provided a wheelchair user *actually occupying their chair or needing the space to transfer from it* does not need the space.

 

[farleigh]

I am glad that this thread is a little more measured now. Unbelievable that yesterday people were calling for the guard to be sacked when they didn't know most of the facts. These people are hopefully now reflecting on those posts.