Disabled Railcard Question

[oldfield]

Can anyone help me with the following?

I bought tickets to travel to London for 2 people using a Disabled Railcard, which means both tickets received the discount of 33%.

Due to illness the Railcard holder is unable to travel, is it possible to upgrade the ticket for the non Railcard holder as they still need to travel?

 

[Neilandrewhall]

Contact the Rail Operator, Yorkie will be able to tell you more

 

[Solent&Wessex]

Can anyone help me with the following?

I bought tickets to travel to London for 2 people using a Disabled Railcard, which means both tickets received the discount of 33%.

Due to illness the Railcard holder is unable to travel, is it possible to upgrade the ticket for the non Railcard holder as they still need to travel?

It is possible to upgrade the tickets, yes, but how much will depend on the original tickets purchased. If it is a flexible ticket such as Off Peak or Anytime then the Excess to pay is simply the amount of discount you have been given. If it is an Advance ticket then it will be more, and will depend on what Advance tickets - if any - are still available. There is also an admin fee of £10 to alter an advance ticket.

In both cases the alterations should be done at a ticket office prior to boarding, as once on board if starting at a station with a ticket office, you will not be able to excess, only buy a brand new ticket again.

 

[yorkie]

Contact the Rail Operator, Yorkie will be able to tell you more

I don't think the operator needs to be contacted. I agree with kwvr45, it can be done (and should be) and I've done it (with a FAM discount). However I do recall someone posting here that a station fobbed them off saying it could not be done.

Unfortunately, while we can say what can/should be done, we cannot guarantee that station staff will adhere to that. Some of them really do not like doing excesses and may refuse. If I was refused by a ticket office, I would seek the guard (before boarding preferably) and explain the situation and ask to excess on board. I have in the past asked guards to excess on board where station staff have refused or been unable to excess correctly. In general guards are better at excessing than station staff, in my experience. But in this case you must, as kwvr45 says, ask at the station first (if it is staffed).

 

[janb]

Unfortunately, while we can say what can/should be done, we cannot guarantee that station staff will adhere to that. Some of them really do not like doing excesses and may refuse. If I was refused by a ticket office, I would seek the guard (before boarding preferably) and explain the situation and ask to excess on board. I have in the past asked guards to excess on board where station staff have refused or been unable to excess correctly. In general guards are better at excessing than station staff, in my experience. But in this case you must, as kwvr45 says, ask at the station first (if it is staffed).

In slight defence of station staff,

a) this particular situation is not dealt with explicitly in The Manual and thus relies on initiative rather that set routines both for decision making and I suspect actually issuing on a TIS, which is not a healthy situation

b) guards have the advantage of usually being final arbiter, ie they know what they will accept on their train whereas station staff have to guess what the likely response will be (including from other TOCs that might have a reputation for stinging customers for new tickets at the slightest opportunity)

oh, and whilst I've been typing I'm reminded that I know of someone who works at the same TOC kwvr45 does that stated non-railcard to railcard excess isn't allowed because the ticket could be transferred so once again with the railways there isn't even clarity internally let alone externally.

 

[First class]

Eh? This is just a very simple (and well documented) excess.

Advance tickets - Effectively tough luck. £10 admin PER TICKET and additional cost of new advance ticket (if any available).

SOR/SDR/SOS etc - Simple X/S up to full fare so in this case add 34% on.

Have I missed something?

 

[yorkie]

This has nothing to do with whether it is Advance or not. It is simple regardless.

The ticket I excessed at KGX was an Advance.

 

[janb]

Eh? This is just a very simple (and well documented) excess.

Advance tickets - Effectively tough luck. £10 admin PER TICKET and additional cost of new advance ticket (if any available).

SOR/SDR/SOS etc - Simple X/S up to full fare so in this case add 34% on.

Have I missed something?

Perhaps I have. Where is it (well) documented?

 

[First class]

Perhaps I have. Where is it (well) documented?

You shouldn't be able to excess a discounted AP ticket to an undiscounted one. The retailer would have to manually set (create) the fare which could see that person dismissed as it is highly irregular. The automated process should always be used and covers all tickets that can be excessed. Some AP tickets give more generous discounts then the 34% (e.g. TPE Students 50%), some are discounted in promotions.

Railcard holders travelling on a discounted ticket must carry their Railcard when they travel. If a Railcard holder fails to produce a valid Railcard with their ticket, a new ticket must be purchased as if no Railcard and/or no ticket were held.

Even if it was allowed, a £10 admin fee is always applied, so you'd have the excess+£10, but it isn't allowed anyway.

The FRPP 'Excesses' or 'Railcards' section is fairly well up on this last time I checked. Retail training should also cover this extremely basic function.

I don't understand why you wouldn't simply excess (the non-Advance ticket) to the full fare in the first place? If a passenger has a railcard discounted ticket, and doesn't hold the railcard and arrives BEFORE BOARDING, you would always charge the excess.

Similarly, if a child turns out not to be a child, you have to excess it up to an adult (before boarding).

 

[janb]

You shouldn't be able to excess a discounted AP ticket to an undiscounted one. The retailer would have to manually set (create) the fare which could see that person dismissed as it is highly irregular. The automated process should always be used and covers all tickets that can be excessed. Some AP tickets give more generous discounts then the 34% (e.g. TPE Students 50%), some are discounted in promotions.

Even if it was allowed, a £10 admin fee is always applied, so you'd have the excess+£10, but it isn't allowed anyway.

Its not my primary question so I'm not that bothered, but this does appear to contradict your previous post.

The FRPP 'Excesses' or 'Railcards' section is fairly well up on this last time I checked.

I can't find any mention of excessing railcard discounted tickets to non discounted tickets in these sections. That was why asked the question of where could I find the documentation you refer to.

I don't understand why you wouldn't simply excess (the non-Advance ticket) to the full fare in the first place? If a passenger has a railcard discounted ticket, and doesn't hold the railcard and arrives BEFORE BOARDING, you would always charge the excess.

I would, yes. I believe it to be the logical course of action, I am not disputing that. I was merely asking where the explicit documentation was because it would be nice to have (as I've never seen it), especially if dealing with colleagues who don't share your brio.

 

[Solent&Wessex]

The fares manual states the following:

The contract with the customer

National Rail Conditions of Carriage specifies conditions under which tickets are issued. Conditions form part of legally binding contracts between customers and Train Companies.

Contract terms include:

* Originating and destination stations (or, in some cases, fares zone);
* Permitted routes;
* Class of accommodation;
* Break of journey;
* Day, time or specific train restrictions.

Evidence of this contract is provided by the issue of tickets.
Back to top

Changing the contract by paying excess fares

Excess fares may be purchased by customers, already in possession of tickets, only in one of three circumstances:
Before the journey starts - at a station

To allow customers holding tickets to change the terms on which their tickets were issued, before travel.

.......

I would suggest that having a discount etc applied is part of the terms. If you want to alter the terms in which the ticket is issued - i.e. remove the railcard discount - I cannot see why not.

It happens all the time and you do it by selecting the "Change of ticket type" option on the TIS.

Now this only applies to flexible tickets - i.e. not Advance. Separate conditions apply to Advance tickets, but they can be altered to another fare for the journey as per the instructions for Advance tickets thus:

...The difference between the price paid and cost of the next suitable fare for the journey is payable, plus a £10 administration fee per person, per single ticket for each change to a journey. If customers change to a train on which a cheaper fare is available, the difference will not be refunded.

 

[janb]

I would suggest that having a discount etc applied is part of the terms. If you want to alter the terms in which the ticket is issued - i.e. remove the railcard discount - I cannot see why not.

It happens all the time and you do it by selecting the "Change of ticket type" option on the TIS.

Yeah, I thought it might come back to that section. My point is though its very vague and this issue isn't explicitly mentioned anywhere, and thus far too open to interpretation which is why customers will experience inconsistencies. The railcard section specifies what will happen if someone is "caught" on board without railcard, surely something similar can be there for those who approach booking office/guard at unstaffed station beforehand - ie "If a customer has purchased a railcard discounted ticket but lacks the railcard, an excess of the difference to the undiscounted fare can be paid at a booking office (or guard if boarding at an unstaffed station)."

FWIW STAR doesn't have "change of ticket type" option for excess. The four options are Peak Period, Superior Class, Alternative Route, and Overdistance. So I can't find a way to get the automated process to work for this scenario, so AFAICS you have to construct a manual fare (using a false reason, Peak Period probably closest).

 

[First class]

I use 'peak period' and override the fare because it is the only option that prints simply as 'X/S Anytime Sgl' or 'X/S Off Peak Day Rtn' etc...

 

[Solent&Wessex]

I use 'peak period' and override the fare because it is the only option that prints simply as 'X/S Anytime Sgl' or 'X/S Off Peak Day Rtn' etc...

That sounds very similar to "Change of Ticket Type" in Avantix, which then prints "X/S Anytime Sgl" or whatever.

For info, the other options in Avantix are:

Change of Route - which prints "X/S Alt Rte Sgl"

STD to 1st - which prints "X/S STD to 1st" (I think!)

Over-Distance - which prints "X/S Over Dist Sgl" (I think!)

The latter two, I can't just remember what they print - I'm sure someone will correct me if needs be.

 

[yorkie]

My, correctly issued, excess was as follows:

STD X/S GNE STDADVANCE 4 EXCESS VALID WITH TXT 34965
From WEST DRAYTON
To YORK
Route AP GNER & CONNECTIONS Adult ONE Child NIL
LOCAL ISSUE
Issued at 6121 41 16004506 82953 01APR07 1401 CASH £11.40

The original ticket was for a FAM discounted ticket costing £22.10.

I was told that it was possible to excess it to a non-discounted fare (it is not possible to change the discount, although this can be done if a manager authorises it, as I am aware that someone changed a 16-25 discount to a disabled discount last Summer, on an Advance ticket, with no admin fee, but this did require authorisation by a manager to do that. A straightforward excess can be done by competent ticket office staff)

It can be done and my advice to the OP is to ask for it, state it can be done and that you have spoken to someone who got one! If they refuse, keep shopping around until you find a co-operative and knowledgeable ticket clerk.

I refuse to accept First Class's claim that it is either 'not allowed' or an admin fee is applicable, and even GNER agreed. And you know what GNER were like for sticking to the rules!

 

[hairyhandedfool]

My, correctly issued, excess was as follows:....

To say it is 'correct' implies you have documented proof that it is, despite staff on this forum not being aware of it. The excess fares section of 'the manual' does not allow for this type of 'excess', therefore, IMO, your ticket was incorrectly issued.

The conditions of the railcard itself state that if you travel on a discounted ticket without the railcard you will need to buy a new ticket, and never once says you can change it beforehand for anything else. The NCoC simply says that a railcard discounted ticket must be accompanied by the railcard.

....I was told that it was possible to excess it to a non-discounted fare (it is not possible to change the discount, although this can be done if a manager authorises it, as I am aware that someone changed a 16-25 discount to a disabled discount last Summer, on an Advance ticket, with no admin fee, but this did require authorisation by a manager to do that. A straightforward excess can be done by competent ticket office staff)....

Out of interest, who told you it could be done?

I have never seen a manager authorise an excess outside of the rules, atleast not in an official capacity. I personally believe that if the discount is the same, there is no real need to excess the fare (discretion should be used).

....It can be done and my advice to the OP is to ask for it, state it can be done and that you have spoken to someone who got one! If they refuse, keep shopping around until you find a co-operative and knowledgeable ticket clerk....

A competent clerk that doesn't know the rules? Tricky. Do you actually mean "shop around until you get what you want"?

...I refuse to accept First Class's claim that it is either 'not allowed' or an admin fee is applicable, and even GNER agreed. And you know what GNER were like for sticking to the rules!

Well that makes a change (sarcasm). Previous threads show that what CAN happen and what SHOULD happen are not the same thing. Nowhere in Excess fares does it say it CAN happen, but nothing is actually stopping staff from doing it.

When you say "GNER agreed", do you actually mean "a member of GNER ticket office staff agreed"? There is a difference.

 

[RJ]

oh, and whilst I've been typing I'm reminded that I know of someone who works at the same TOC kwvr45 does that stated non-railcard to railcard excess isn't allowed because the ticket could be transferred so once again with the railways there isn't even clarity internally let alone externally.

An Excess ticket is *only* valid if the original ticket is also held. I do excesses on a daily basis and ensure I staple the tickets together.

 

[janb]

An Excess ticket is *only* valid if the original ticket is also held. I do excesses on a daily basis and ensure I staple the tickets together.

No, it was meant in the sense that a discounted ticket could be used by someone other than the original traveller through the addition of an excess (ie ticket transferred from original traveller to a different new one), not that the excess would be used independently.