Disabled adult penalty fare.

[HST274]

If the conversation went thus:

"Can I see your ticket please?"
"The assistance bloke put it in the back of my chair"

I think most reasonable people would interpret that as an invitation to grab it from there, if there was an obvious pocket. Until it came up on here in the past I wasn't aware wheelchair users felt their chair was part of their body rather than e.g. analogous to a rucksack, and so I suspect a lot of others don't understand that either.

If they did interpret it that way, as I think most would, then there's a training omission there.

However, I don't see that once you've got there there would be much option but to give consent. Showing your ticket when requested is legally mandatory. If the OP's father wanted control of that process, then he'd need to insist it was returned to his hand. If it then wasn't, then that's a problem as a direct instruction was needed, and some people do have a habit of ignoring wheelchair users' instructions as if they didn't matter, so I'd not rule that out either.

But to rifle around I think is out of order. Personally I would still have asked do you know where it is so I can access it? I'm not saying that the OP's father should or would have refused to give his ticket. Likely the officer would have ended up with it either way but assuming consent is always dangerous in any circumstances even if the assumption were correct.

 

[Haywain]

Quite possibly not. But that needs to be seen as a railway internal problem, really.

I agree, I was just suggesting that they may not have realised the ticket wasn’t valid on a Northern service. Therefore they would not have given a thought to endorsing it or giving permission.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I agree, I was just suggesting that they may not have realised the ticket wasn’t valid on a Northern service. Therefore they would not have given a thought to endorsing it or giving permission.

Probably not, but I think loading them on, if the ticket was requested and shown, constitutes permission. The passenger doesn't have to establish the staff's role - obviously asking the cleaner would be wrong, but if someone acts in railway uniform, sees a ticket and loads someone onto a train, I don't think there is any scope they could be reasonably considered to interpret that as anything other than permission.

 

[gray1404]

I have had a read of northern disabled persons protection policy over my lunch. They have simply fail to follow it on this occasion. They also allow the purchase of a ticket onboard to a person unable to use station facilities.

 

[Haywain]

Probably not, but I think loading them on, if the ticket was requested and shown, constitutes permission. The passenger doesn't have to establish the staff's role - obviously asking the cleaner would be wrong, but if someone acts in railway uniform, sees a ticket and loads someone onto a train, I don't think there is any scope they could be reasonably considered to interpret that as anything other than permission.

Again, I fully agree.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 24 Feb 2022 ==

They also allow the purchase of a ticket onboard to a person unable to use station facilities.

Not relevant in this case as a ticket was already held.

 

[gray1404]

Again, I fully agree.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 24 Feb 2022 ==


Not relevant in this case as a ticket was already held.

Think I think you will find it is relevant because if the person checking tickets felt that the ticket held was invalid they could also determine that the passenger was unable to use the facilities at Liverpool Lime Street and that supply the disabled persons protection policy and sell them a ticket on board that was correct.

 

[Haywain]

Think I think you will find it is relevant because if the person checking tickets felt that the ticket held was invalid they could also determine that the passenger was unable to use the facilities at Liverpool Lime Street and that supply the disabled persons protection policy and sell them a ticket on board that was correct.

No. How would they determine that the person was unable to use the facilities at Lime Street when they had a ticket bought at those very same facilities? Anyway, this is of no help to the OP.

 

[gray1404]

No. How would they determine that the person was unable to use the facilities at Lime Street when they had a ticket bought at those very same facilities? Anyway, this is of no help to the OP.

I am going to respectfully agree to differ with you on this rather than simply dismissing your arguments. I would ask for the same from you. I understand where you are coming from to some extent.

The passenger was indeed unable to use the tickets selling facilities at the station. However a member of staff assisted them in purchasing tickets and subsequently an operator restricted ticket was sold.

It seems to me that the penalty fare was issued on the basis that the passenger was not travelling in accordance with that operator restriction. It is therefore valid question whether the customer would have been able to use the facilities at Liverpool Lime Street of their own accord to purchase the correct ticket for their journey. If the answer to that is no than a disabled persons protection policy should have been applied and then be allowed to purchase it to his on the train and not issue a penalty fare.

There is the added consideration and question whether they received authorisation to travel from a member of staff on the Northern service. If the answer to this is yes, which it appears to be, than the ticket should have been passed for travel under the circumstances and a penalty fare not issued.

These are both valid considerations and demonstrate that on multiple levels Northern did not follow their own policy both in terms of issuance of penalty fares and their own disabled persons protection policy.

 

[Unjustcarer]

I'm helping to write the appeal and complaint tonight. Do you guys think i should submit two complaints. One for the way he was treated to Northern and a second to TPE? My father said the young lad who put him on the train was lovely and made him feel at ease was cracking jokes to cheer him up the entire time and i know my father would hate to see someone paid presumably close to minimum wage disciplined/sacked for putting him onto the wrong train.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 24 Feb 2022 ==

Also how would i go about requesting cctv/bodycam footage (if avaliable) or is this a waste of time

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 24 Feb 2022 ==

Probably not, but I think loading them on, if the ticket was requested and shown, constitutes permission. The passenger doesn't have to establish the staff's role - obviously asking the cleaner would be wrong, but if someone acts in railway uniform, sees a ticket and loads someone onto a train, I don't think there is any scope they could be reasonably considered to interpret that as anything other than permission.

Just to clarify here: the TPE gentleman physically purchased the ticket with my dad .. he rook him to the ticket booth and helped him to pay due to poor mobility as the passenger assistance did not turn up

 

[gray1404]

I did not think you need to submit a complaint to TPE. Are you sure it was definitely TPE though because they do not have a staff presence at Liverpool Lime Street just their board train crews would be there but on the actual train and if say that guard wanted to sell a ticket they would do that from their own ticket machine and also they would depart with the train and not escort you to a later train.

Are you sure it was not a member of staff from Northern or Network Rail? I think it is Network Rail who provide any mobility assistance at Liverpool Lime Street. Once you have established which company that the said person worked for though it would be worth writing a very polite letter thanking them for their help but asking if they would be willing to confirm that they authorised him to travel on the Northern service as a disabled person because they were unable to get the wheelchair onto the TPE service. You can explain that despite them very kind of authorising travel and putting your family member onto the train a member of Northern revenue protection staff that he later encountered failed to accept this explanation and would they please confirm the authority that was given.

I would definitely request CCTV footage from Network Rail of the passenger at Liverpool Lime Street bands from Northern Rail of them on board the northern service and any body camera footage and audio that was captured by the revenue protection seen. Until you see it you do not know how useful it might be and it might in fact be very useful.

So yes double check who definitely provides the assistance at Liverpool Lime Street and send a polite letter to them, a formal complaint to Northern Customer Service about the appalling staff conduct, a stage one appeal against the penalty fare and finally a request for the above footage from Northern at this point.

Also depending on the length of the delay to the journey due to being unable to board the TPE service, a delay repay claim could also be sent to them.

You may wish to write to your MP enclosing a copy of the penalty fare appeal and the formal complaint to Northern and ask for their backing on this matter. I expect they will write to the CEO of Northern Rail and possibly the Minister for Transport given Northern is under the operator of last resort at the moment.

 

[Haywain]

Do you guys think i should submit two complaints. One for the way he was treated to Northern and a second to TPE? My father said the young lad who put him on the train was lovely and made him feel at ease was cracking jokes to cheer him up the entire time and i know my father would hate to see someone paid presumably close to minimum wage disciplined/sacked for putting him onto the wrong train.

Try 3 complaints - add one to Network Rail, who provide assistance at Lime Street (according to their own website). The fact that the young lad was lovely is not overly relevant; he got things wrong and will benefit from understanding how to do better and the complaint can cover the fact that he was good at the 'people skills' aspect of his job. Also, your complaint to NR will help in understanding why the assistance was late, and what messaging was passed on.

Also how would i go about requesting cctv/bodycam footage (if avaliable) or is this a waste of time

Raise a subject access request.

Just to clarify here: the TPE gentleman physically purchased the ticket with my dad .. he rook him to the ticket booth and helped him to pay due to poor mobility as the passenger assistance did not turn up

If you mean the person who provided assistance, this is almost certainly a Network Rail employee.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 24 Feb 2022 ==

I did not think you need to submit a complaint to TPE.

The father was not accommodated on a TPE train, when booked on it. That is cause for complaint.

 

[northwichcat]

If I’d have seen an elderly man in a wheelchair being issued a PF I would have taken the RPI’s penalty fare pad and ripped it up and taken whatever consequences followed.

The Northern ones are crafty. They say things like "Come over here and we'll sort it out" to people alighting without tickets. Then move far enough away so they aren't in earshot of the other passengers who might back up a story that there wasn't a working machine at the station they boarded at. They also don't ever seem to sell tickets, they just take details on their smart devices.

 

[Unjustcarer]

Try 3 complaints - add one to Network Rail, who provide assistance at Lime Street (according to their own website). The fact that the young lad was lovely is not overly relevant; he got things wrong and will benefit from understanding how to do better and the complaint can cover the fact that he was good at the 'people skills' aspect of his job. Also, your complaint to NR will help in understanding why the assistance was late, and what messaging was passed on.

Raise a subject access request.

If you mean the person who provided assistance, this is almost certainly a Network Rail employee.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 24 Feb 2022 ==


The father was not accommodated on a TPE train, when booked on it. That is cause for complaint.

I spoke to my Father and he seems convinced it was a TPE staff member as they had a blue TPE overcoat on, is it possible an off duty member of staff felt bad and decided to help him? Also they took him to the ticket office to buy the ticket, they didn't sell it to him themselves.

The Northern ones are crafty. They say things like "Come over here and we'll sort it out" to people alighting without tickets. Then move far enough away so they aren't in earshot of the other passengers who might back up a story that there wasn't a working machine at the station they boarded at. They also don't ever seem to sell tickets, they just take details on their smart devices.

I wouldn't mind if he was trying to evade the fare but he clearly was not. A little common sense would go a long way in my humble opinion. Out of interest are these PF inspectors commission based/monthly target based jobs (if I am allowed to ask that). The whole thing seems to crazy to me.

 

[northwichcat]

I did not think you need to submit a complaint to TPE. Are you sure it was definitely TPE though because they do not have a staff presence at Liverpool Lime Street just their board train crews would be there but on the actual train and if say that guard wanted to sell a ticket they would do that from their own ticket machine and also they would depart with the train and not escort you to a later train.

At Piccadilly station TPE crews seem to frequently get recognised as members of rail staff by the public and always seem happy to help.

 

[gray1404]

My understanding is that TPE do have their own staff on duty at the station in Manchester but not Liverpool.

The Network Rail staff also wear a blue uniform. If the member of staff had initially try to help the passenger onto the train within their wheelchair then they would certainly have been on duty.

I think it would be fair to say that revenue protection staff are monitored on their performance. I'm not sure if they have targets to meet but I think questions would be asked if they are not performing. Now how they measure performance they are never to open about, but I suspect this is on number of penalty fares issued rather than number of tickets checked.

 

[thedbdiboy]

I'm not sure if an appeal would be successful on this occasion due to

1. A penalty fare can be charged when using a TOC specific ticket on the wrong TOC.

2. Whilst I understand that the passenger was put on a Northern service by a staff member they should have got the ticket endorsed by said staff member to show that they had arranged this. Without an endorsement there is no way to know what happened so in view of the lack of evidence the appeals team will assume that no authority was given.

3. If the staff would not endorse the ticket the passenger should insist on buying a new ticket or refuse to be placed on the train. By doing neither they accepted the possibility of a penalty fare being charged.

4. The passenger must produce a valid ticket on demand. If the ticket was in a place that the passenger did not have access to then they failed to do this and a penalty fare is applicable.

Whilst this may appear harsh and I am sorry but on this occasion I can see an appeal being rejected.

The OP may have more luck raising a civil case under the equality act to show that the penalty fare system is discriminatory and seek compensation through this method.

The issuing of a Penalty Fares and the grounds for appeal are covered in the relevant Regulations. In this case based on the circumstances presented, the ground for appeal would be 16 (3) (d) 'there are compelling reasons why, in the particular circumstances of the case, the appellant should not be liable to pay the penalty fare.'

This was the bit that got inserted in 2018 to strengthen the right to cite specific circumstances outside the list quoted above.

 

[Kite159]

..

Try 3 complaints - add one to Network Rail, who provide assistance at Lime Street (according to their own website). The fact that the young lad was lovely is not overly relevant; he got things wrong and will benefit from understanding how to do better and the complaint can cover the fact that he was good at the 'people skills' aspect of his job. Also, your complaint to NR will help in understanding why the assistance was late, and what messaging was passed on.

Did the member of staff who loaded the gentleman onto the Northern train speak with the guard of the Northern service telling him what had happened (tried to board on the TPE but was unable due to overcrowding, and wouldn't they mind taking this passenger to Manchester even though he holds a TPE only fare), with the guard giving permission for the passenger to travel.

Unless the guard was playing hide & seek in the back cab and was unaware that the contractor RPIs boarded during the journey so was unable to speak with them to confirm that he had given that passenger permission to travel to Manchester.

 

[Lemmy99uk]

There is the added consideration and question whether they received authorisation to travel from a member of staff on the Northern service. If the answer to this is yes, which it appears to be, than the ticket should have been passed for travel under the circumstances and a penalty fare not issued.

I’m not sure whether this has been brought up in other threads, but can an employee of one company, (in this case Network Rail), give permission for someone to travel with another company, (Northern), without authority from the TOC concerned?

If they can then it’s a recipe for chaos.

 

[Haywain]

I’m not sure whether this has been brought up in other threads, but can an employee of one company, (in this case Network Rail), give permission for someone to travel with another company, (Northern), without authority from the TOC concerned?

Yes, they can. And in this case actually putting them on the train can’t really be seen any in other way.

 

[Lemmy99uk]

Yes, they can. And in this case actually putting them on the train can’t really be seen any in other way.

So what is to stop a West Midland Railway Conductor on a busy service at Birmingham New Street directing his excess passengers to an adjacent Avanti train?

 

[skyhigh]

Unless the guard was playing hide & seek in the back cab and was unaware that the contractor RPIs boarded during the journey so was unable to speak with them to confirm that he had given that passenger permission to travel to Manchester.

Not that it makes much difference but all onboard revenue inspectors on Northern are directly employed by the TOC. They should always inform the guard they are working onboard (partly to avoid incidents where the guard has given permission to travel but the inspector doesn't know this).

 

[Bletchleyite]

So what is to stop a West Midland Railway Conductor on a busy service at Birmingham New Street directing his excess passengers to an adjacent Avanti train?

You must surely see that there is a rather large difference between a guard saying "if you have an Any Permitted ticket you might want to use that train instead" and an assistance person placing a disabled person on board a train, after which they have no ability to leave it?

What is happening here is that a passenger was penalised for an internal staff disciplinary matter.

 

[py_megapixel]

Hang on a minute... according to https://www.brfares.com/!fares?orig=LIV&dest=MAN, there are no TPE-only walk-up standard class fares from Liverpool to Manchester. There are first class ones, but a wheelchair user presumably should not have been sold one, as TPE has the only wheelchair spaces in first class anyway.

So what ticket was OP's father actually sold? There are Advance Singles, but it sounds like they did not buy their ticket in advance, and in any case they should have been fully advised of the booked-train-only restriction, which I assume OP would have mentioned in their post. If OP could clarify this it would be much appreciated.

Of course it's possible, though hopefully unlikely, that the ticket didn't actually have an operator restriction and the Northern revenue inspector was making it up, though I can't see why they would do this other than some ridiculous prejudice against disabled people (and anyone who is prejudiced against disabled people has no place working on the railway in the first place, let alone in a customer-facing role)

 

[Bletchleyite]

Northern and TPE both offer APOD (Advance Purchase on the Day).

 

[Unjustcarer]

Hello. I have asked my father and he isn't too sure as the ticket was taken. He said
He received change from a ten note if that helps

 

[Bletchleyite]

Hello. I have asked my father and he isn't too sure as the ticket was taken. He said
He received change from a ten note if that helps

That is another grounds for complaint, then. If a member of staff withdraws a ticket for investigation, a receipt must be issued to the passenger confirming the withdrawal and stating what was withdrawn.

Is this perhaps on the Penalty Fares Notice? Could you perhaps upload a copy of that notice with all personal details redacted?

 

[robbeech]

If anyone is contacting press, please consider drumming up support for a ban on PFs to disabled people

This would be abused from the outset. All it needs is for reasonable measures to be taken like they already should be. No changes to rules are needed here, just staff following them.

Cock ups happen but surely Northern could arrange for the PF to be cancelled today. They will be crucified in the press when this gets out - as it will!

Let us wait and see, it's entirely possible that the appeal will be upheld and the matter dismissed, then the passenger can focus on a complaint which may be handled appropriately. I think we (certainly myself included) can be quick to jump in and assume that the operator will do the wrong thing so we should wait and see the results of the appeal.

I agree, I was just suggesting that they may not have realised the ticket wasn’t valid on a Northern service. Therefore they would not have given a thought to endorsing it or giving permission.

This is a crucial point. A passenger who is told which train to get by the person who helped them buy a ticket would almost always assume that their ticket MUST be valid on that train else why on earth would the member of staff recommend it. Add to that the fact they physically helped them board and there is no way any regular passenger would have any doubt as to the validity of the ticket they've bought.

Out of interest are these PF inspectors commission based/monthly target based jobs (if I am allowed to ask that). The whole thing seems to crazy to me.

NO. Well, this is what they always claim. If they frequently issue less than everyone else they'll be questioned on it though. And there have been known to be internal competitions between them to see who can do the most in a day etc, so its not beyond comprehension that there can be incentives to issue them.

Hello. I have asked my father and he isn't too sure as the ticket was taken. He said
He received change from a ten note if that helps

The Northern only fares with Disabled Railcard are under a tenner. and there are advance singles from TPE and Northern for under a tenner, only Northern services stop at Huyton (i think) so it's unlikely to be the other way around.
Is the penalty fare amount £20?

On board the train a penalty fare should be issued for the station you boarded to the next station the train calls at and then a full price undiscounted single ticket issued to the destination if further travel is required. I get the feeling this isn't what has happened here, so its possible the inspector has got that wrong too.

 

[Unjustcarer]

That is another grounds for complaint, then. If a member of staff withdraws a ticket for investigation, a receipt must be issued to the passenger confirming the withdrawal and stating what was withdrawn.

Is this perhaps on the Penalty Fares Notice? Could you perhaps upload a copy of that notice with all personal details redacted?

Hello i will upload this all over the weekend as i don't live with my father and will be seeing him then.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 24 Feb 2022 ==

This would be abused from the outset. All it needs is for reasonable measures to be taken like they already should be. No changes to rules are needed here, just staff following them.

Let us wait and see, it's entirely possible that the appeal will be upheld and the matter dismissed, then the passenger can focus on a complaint which may be handled appropriately. I think we (certainly myself included) can be quick to jump in and assume that the operator will do the wrong thing so we should wait and see the results of the appeal.

This is a crucial point. A passenger who is told which train to get by the person who helped them buy a ticket would almost always assume that their ticket MUST be valid on that train else why on earth would the member of staff recommend it. Add to that the fact they physically helped them board and there is no way any regular passenger would have any doubt as to the validity of the ticket they've bought.

NO. Well, this is what they always claim. If they frequently issue less than everyone else they'll be questioned on it though. And there have been known to be internal competitions between them to see who can do the most in a day etc, so its not beyond comprehension that there can be incentives to issue them.


The Northern only fares with Disabled Railcard are under a tenner. and there are advance singles from TPE and Northern for under a tenner, only Northern services stop at Huyton (i think) so it's unlikely to be the other way around.
Is the penalty fare amount £20?

On board the train a penalty fare should be issued for the station you boarded to the next station the train calls at and then a full price undiscounted single ticket issued to the destination if further travel is required. I get the feeling this isn't what has happened here, so its possible the inspector has got that wrong too.

I believe the penalty fare amount was 26 pounds exactly but I will have to double check tommorow. Although not a horrendous amount of money for me it is more the principle of the matter

 

[HST274]

I believe the penalty fare amount was 26 pounds exactly but I will have to double check tommorow. Although not a horrendous amount of money for me it is more the principle of the

Absolutely. The manner in which the officer acted was terrible- seemingly prejudiced and against TOC rules. At the very least they should be severely disciplined. I wish you success and hope your father is OK

 

[robbeech]

I believe the penalty fare amount was 26 pounds exactly but I will have to double check tommorow. Although not a horrendous amount of money for me it is more the principle of the matter

£26 or 26p the attitude of the staff member was unacceptable and that needs to be addressed AFTER the penalty fare has been dealt with using the methods and advice given in this thread.

You can rest assured that a LOT of people will be watching this thread very closely and you have the support of many people on here, including some working for the operator in question so there is nothing for you or your father to worry about whatsoever provided you follow the necessary steps.