Direct services to Liverpool

[stockport1]

when chat moss is electrified what are
the chances of seeing a
london-macc-stockport-manchester-liverpool route?

ie extend a manchester service to liverpool via chat moss.

an hourly express pendo service between liverpool and manchester would be great.

How long would that take? 20 mins?

thoughts anyone?

 

[MidnightFlyer]

Unless it was timetabled to avoid any stopping service (which I doubt you could after Huyton) and improved speed limits, I'd put it at closer to 30-35 mins.

Old Yard Dog - Bradford Exchange in a sense still survives; Interchange covers some of the old station site which never closed.

 

[D1009]

No - the trains which went via Harrogate and Ripon to Newcastle were the diesel-hauled [40s, 46s and then 47s] "Trans-Pennine" services from Liverpool Lime St, Manchester [Exchange firstly, then Victoria],then over the Standedge route to Huddersfield and Leeds City. Interestingly, they then went via Wetherby to Harrogate to avoid reversal at City station.

These services, introduced in 1961, were part of the rejuvenated "Trans-Pennine" route, which also saw the introduction of the 6-car Swindon-built "Trans-Pennine" dmus on the Liverpool Lime St-Hull workings.

The Liverpool Exchange-Harrogate via the Calder Valley dmus were introduced a year later in 1962, and originally used Leeds Central station. They were, in fact, an extension of the exisiting Bradford Exchange-Leeds Central-Harrogate service. When Central was closed in 1967 and services diverted to Leeds City, through running to Harrogate ceased.

Interestingly, though, there was one through service from Liverpool Exchange to Newcastle, but that went via the old L & Y through the Calder Valley to Sowerby Bridge, then Brighouse, Mirfield, Wakefield Kirkgate, Normanton and Castleford to York, but it was terminated at York when the dmus took over in 1962.

I was actually thinking of prior to 1961, didn't the Newcastle trains run from Liverpool Exchange ?

 

[AlanFry1]

What NR need to do is launch services from Liverpool to Scotland

 

[Nym]

What NR need to do is launch services from Liverpool to Scotland

Why??

 

[AlanFry1]

Why??

Because that is a service that was once around is a large gap in the services to and from Liverpool

 

[Nym]

Because that is a service that was once around is a large gap in the services to and from Liverpool

But is there a market, are there a lot of pax from Liverpool to Scotland?
Are there unrealised pax that currently fly that would transfer to rail?

The only unserved by direct services stations that would gain would likely be St Helens Jcn / Central and Liverpool L St 1tp2h, are these stations going to generate enough pax for a scotland flow on their own, or will the service simply abstract pax from existing services on the route and provide no real benifit over an additional 1tph/1tp2h to Lancaster or Blackpool?

 

[AlanFry1]

But is there a market, are there a lot of pax from Liverpool to Scotland?
Are there unrealised pax that currently fly that would transfer to rail?

The only unserved by direct services stations that would gain would likely be St Helens Jcn / Central and Liverpool L St 1tp2h, are these stations going to generate enough pax for a scotland flow on their own, or will the service simply abstract pax from existing services on the route and provide no real benifit over an additional 1tph/1tp2h to Lancaster or Blackpool?

Well what new services do you want to/from Liverpool?

 

[ainsworth74]

What NR need to do is launch services from Liverpool to Scotland

Out of curiosity do you mean Northern Rail (who don't really do services like this) or Network Rail (who don't run trains at all!)?

 

[AlanFry1]

Out of curiosity do you mean Northern Rail (who don't really do services like this) or Network Rail (who don't run trains at all!)?

National Rail, I was talking about the UK rail network in general (i.e. TOCs)

 

[Nym]

For the Liverpool Area:

Move to a standard half hourly clockface 2tph pattern of services out of Lime St through St Helens Central, St Helens Junction (to Manchester Victoria), 2tph Semi Fast to Preston, extending to either Blackpool North or Lancaster (to provide local journies), 2tph SF over CLC & 2tph Slow, Inc to 2tph WBQ - MAN/MCV, 2tph MCV/MAN WGN drop to 2tph WGW via BON and potentially up to 3tph via Atherton.

Post Electrification (Confirmed & Ordsall Cord) (Manchester = Vic or Pic)

2tph Liverpool Lime Street to Wigan North Western via St Helens Central
2tph Liverpool Lime Street to Manchester Victoria via Chat Moss Slow
2tph Liverpool Lime Street to Manchester Victoria via Chat Moss Fast
2tph Liverpool Lime Street to Preston Semi Fast
2tph Manchester - Warrington Bank Quay - (Chester)
2tph Manchester - Wigan NW via Paitcroft (Slow)

1tph Manchester Airport - Wigan NW - Scotland
1tph Crewe - Preston / Blackpool North via Newton-le-Willows

2tph (Manchester Victoria) - Bolton - Wigan Wallgate
2tph Manchester Victoria - Atherton - Wigan Wallgate
1tph Manchester Airport - Salford Crescent - Atherton - Wigan Wallgate - (Southport)

Not included the CLC here as it's a matter for discussion and would need significant changes in Manchester to get much past 2tph Semi-Fast 2tph Slow.

 

[AlanFry1]

For the Liverpool Area:

Move to a standard half hourly clockface 2tph pattern of services out of Lime St through St Helens Central, St Helens Junction (to Manchester Victoria), 2tph Semi Fast to Preston, extending to either Blackpool North or Lancaster (to provide local journies), 2tph SF over CLC & 2tph Slow, Inc to 2tph WBQ - MAN/MCV, 2tph MCV/MAN WGN drop to 2tph WGW via BON and potentially up to 3tph via Atherton.

Post Electrification (Confirmed & Ordsall Cord) (Manchester = Vic or Pic)

2tph Liverpool Lime Street to Wigan North Western via St Helens Central
2tph Liverpool Lime Street to Manchester Victoria via Chat Moss Slow
2tph Liverpool Lime Street to Manchester Victoria via Chat Moss Fast
2tph Liverpool Lime Street to Preston Semi Fast
2tph Manchester - Warrington Bank Quay - (Chester)
2tph Manchester - Wigan NW via Paitcroft (Slow)

1tph Manchester Airport - Wigan NW - Scotland
1tph Crewe - Preston / Blackpool North via Newton-le-Willows

2tph (Manchester Victoria) - Bolton - Wigan Wallgate
2tph Manchester Victoria - Atherton - Wigan Wallgate
1tph Manchester Airport - Salford Crescent - Atherton - Wigan Wallgate - (Southport)

Would that require new stock?

 

[Nym]

Would that require new stock?

Yes, Class 319 Units most likely. Look carefully and you'll realise I have minimised Diesel Under Wires working.

(There would also be another 1tph extending to Kirkby and 1tph to Southport from Wallgate, all Manchester Pax encouraged to use services via Paitcroft, hence why Wigan - Bolton may become a shuttle between Wallgate and Bolton, services into Manchester from Bolton being dominated by Class 323 units in double formation, or 319 units in single formation, 2x323 being the longest that will fit in MCO and Salford Crescent, with only BIF and Clitheroe services running through as Diesel)

 

[AlanFry1]

Yes, Class 319 Units most likely. Look carefully and you'll realise I have minimised Diesel Under Wires working.

(There would also be another 1tph extending to Kirkby and 1tph to Southport from Wallgate, all Manchester Pax encouraged to use services via Paitcroft)

I think Class 377/5 would be better

 

[Nym]

Actually, no, the best stock to work services through Manchester Oxford Road is Class 380/0 or 323 units, think platform lengths...

 

[AlanFry1]

Actually, no, the best stock to work services through Manchester Oxford Road is Class 380/0 or 323 units, think platform lengths...

Would 23 Class 323 be enough or would you need all of the 43 sets?

 

[ainsworth74]

National Rail, I was talking about the UK rail network in general (i.e. TOCs)

I would be careful abbreviating National Rail to NR as that is generally used for Network Rail. Just trying to avoid confusion

 

[AlanFry1]

I would be careful abbreviating National Rail to NR as that is generally used for Network Rail. Just trying to avoid confusion

If I had my way, all you would need to refer to all of the UK rail operations is BR

 

[Welshman]

I was actually thinking of prior to 1961, didn't the Newcastle trains run from Liverpool Exchange ?

With the exception of the service I mentioned from Exchange to Newcastle via the Calder Valley and Wakefield Kirkgate to York and Newcastle, then I don't think they did.

Prior to dieselisation in 1961, the regular service from Exchange was every two hours to Bradford Exchange/Leeds Central, dividing and joining at Low Moor. Although it would have been possible to transfer from the ex L&Y line from Liverpool Exchange to the ex LNWR lines from Lime St to Huddersfield and Leeds City at Manchester Victoria, and then gain access to Newcastle from Leeds City, I don't remember they did. Service patterns just after nationalisation very much resembled those of the old companies.

 

[Class377/5]

I think Class 377/5 would be better

What is it with you and the 377/5's? You wanted them for Crossrail too.

They never will make it up north, ever. They're a dual voltage unit that are built to provide a service in the south that is unique to the southeast. Moving them north will never happen. As for new build, not going to happen. The Electrostar for new orders is dead. The 377/6 were ordered for backwards compatablility with Southern's 377.

Now the choice from Bombardier is Adventra only for an EMU.

 

[AlanFry1]

What is it with you and the 377/5's? You wanted them for Crossrail too.

They never will make it up north, ever. They're a dual voltage unit that are built to provide a service in the south that is unique to the southeast. Moving them north will never happen. As for new build, not going to happen. The Electrostar for new orders is dead. The 377/6 were ordered for backwards compatablility with Southern's 377.

Now the choice from Bombardier is Adventra only for an EMU.

The Electrostar 337/5 is a dual voltage train and is ggod for long distance servcies. Surely you can agree it is a good train?

As for the Adventra, well that is a long way off

 

[D1009]

With the exception of the service I mentioned from Exchange to Newcastle via the Calder Valley and Wakefield Kirkgate to York and Newcastle, then I don't think they did.

Prior to dieselisation in 1961, the regular service from Exchange was every two hours to Bradford Exchange/Leeds Central, dividing and joining at Low Moor. Although it would have been possible to transfer from the ex L&Y line from Liverpool Exchange to the ex LNWR lines from Lime St to Huddersfield and Leeds City at Manchester Victoria, and then gain access to Newcastle from Leeds City, I don't remember they did. Service patterns just after nationalisation very much resembled those of the old companies.

Thanks for that, memory plays tricks. I remember as late as 1967 there was a Fridays only steam hauled service from Liverpool Exchange which we used to bash as far as Wakefield Kirkgate, I think it went to York. I can't remember whether it called at Wigan Wallgate or went via the avoiding line.

 

[Old Yard Dog]

Unless it was timetabled to avoid any stopping service (which I doubt you could after Huyton) and improved speed limits, I'd put it at closer to 30-35 mins.

Old Yard Dog - Bradford Exchange in a sense still survives; Interchange covers some of the old station site which never closed.

You are are partially right.

The original Bradford Exchange station was the other side of Bridge Street but was relocated when the new transport interchange was built in the 1970's. The new station was called Bradford Exchange for a short while before being renamed Bradford Interchange.

Wrexham Exchange survives on its present site but the platforms have been "merged" with those of Wrexham General which is of course right next door.

 

[Class185]

It is such a shame, reading all the servies that used to serve Liverpool that have since been changed.

I do hope, in the future, Liverpool gets more support from TPE, Virgin and maybe ever XC along with the current EMT and Northern services.

 

[AlanFry1]

It will be nice if some of these services were restarted

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liverpool_Lime_Street_railway_station#Withdrawn_services

Maybe XC can restart servcies to Cambridge, Edinburgh, Poole, Weymouth, London Paddington, Portsmouth, Plymouth and Brighton and Stansted Airport via Birmingham

Also ATW could launch a Cardiff to Liverpool service (like it does to Manchester)

 

[MidnightFlyer]

It will be nice if some of these services were restarted

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liverpool_Lime_Street_railway_station#Withdrawn_services

Maybe XC can restart servcies to Cambridge, Edinburgh, Poole, Weymouth, London Paddington, Portsmouth, Plymouth and Brighton and Stansted Airport via Birmingham

I cannot see Poole, Weymouth, Portsmouth, Brighton or Paddington ever returning to the XC network, let alone Liverpool. The whole reason for the downfall of Operation Princess was the fact that the network was way too complex; I think the current streamlined network is so much better.

I doubt CBG and SSD trains will ever run through to Liverpool again - in essence they swapped that for a Norwich service, and Liverpool-Birmingham does now enjoy a dedicated EMU service half-hourly.

Plymouth XC trains chiefly run up the eastern half of their network via Yorkshire to Edinburgh, not to the North West. Further, what would you sacrifice to accommodate Liverpool rejoining the XC network? A Manchester service? Stock doesn't exist to run a replacement.

Edinburgh is a future possibility under the WC / TP franchise once NW electrification is complete, running via St Helens Central to Wigan, then up the WCML (possibly joining with a portion ex-Manchester on-route).