Digital fraud team

[kazzy]

Hi!
Recently, I was getting a train for which I believed I had purchased a ticket for and as my train station has broken barriers I walked through without checking my Trainline app, after I got on the train I checked my app and realised my purchase hadn’t gone through so I immediately brought the same ticket on the spot however the ticket inspectors didn’t like that and reported it to the fraud team.

I received an email from the fraud team and they carried out a through investigation where they realised that I had travelled with children’s tickets on multiple occasions, trust me I know this is wrong and don’t need to be lectured on it.

They’ve asked for proof of age and my address which I will provide them however I’m looking for some advice I know this will sound silly but I am very panicked about this situation and just need advice on what to respond, I take accountability and just want this sorted, I’m more than willing to just accept the fine.

Thank you

 

[High Dyke]

Welcome.

Firstly, don't panic. However, can you please post a copy of the email (with personal information redacted), so that helpful advice can be provided.

 

[kazzy]

Welcome.

Firstly, don't panic. However, can you please post a copy of the email (with personal information redacted), so that helpful advice can be provided.

thank you for your reply,
These are the two emails I’ve received as I responded to the first one explaining why I purchased the ticket after getting on the train.
After my first email they informed me on the investigation to the child tickets.

 

[John R]

If you cooperate (which includes admitting the use of child tickets - assuming you did) then you will probably be offered an out of court settlement.

However, if you deny that you actually travelled with the child tickets purchased, then they will have no evidence for those instances to prosecute you. But they may then choose, if they feel you are not being completely honest, to prosecute you for the ticket “purchase after boarding” incident, which is a slam dunk conviction, if they do it properly.

Personally, I’d be honest and cooperate with them. The ultimate costs may be similar, but you’ll avoid a conviction. It’s your choice though.

 

[kazzy]

If you cooperate (which includes admitting the use of child tickets - assuming you did) then you will probably be offered an out of court settlement.

However, if you deny that you actually travelled with the child tickets purchased, then they will have no evidence for those instances to prosecute you. But they may then choose, if they feel you are not being completely honest, to prosecute you for the ticket “purchase after boarding” incident, which is a slam dunk conviction, if they do it properly.

Personally, I’d be honest and cooperate with them. The ultimate costs may be similar, but you’ll avoid a conviction. It’s your choice though.

I definitely don’t want a conviction, should I just admit all the child tickets (I was planning on doing this) if I admit to it will they bring me to court or is it a straight forward fine

 

[John R]

Usually someone who is honest, apologetic and cooperative is offered an out of court settlement, which will probably be a few hundred pounds. That isn’t a fine though, only a court can issue a fine.

There’s no guarantee mind you, but I’d be surprised if you weren’t offered one.

 

[kazzy]

Usually someone who is honest, apologetic and cooperative is offered an out of court settlement, which will probably be a few hundred pounds. That isn’t a fine though, only a court can issue a fine.

There’s no guarantee mind you, but I’d be surprised if you weren’t offered one.

Thank you so much!! Honestly have brought down my panic by so much, I’ll respond to their email first thing tomorrow take accountability and see how it goes!

 

[John R]

If you want to post a draft here, people will be able to make sure you include the right things to say. One suggestion though, use your own words and don’t use AI tools, as they come across as incredibly insincere, and are spotted a mile off.

 

[kazzy]

I’ll draft it tomorrow and upload it! And that’s very understandable AI screams ‘I can’t be bothered’

 

[AlterEgo]

thank you for your reply,
These are the two emails I’ve received as I responded to the first one explaining why I purchased the ticket after getting on the train.
After my first email they informed me on the investigation to the child tickets.

What a profoundly amateur email they sent back to you. Barely literate and reckons that purchasing after departure is an offence under the Fraud Act 2006.

Still, if you follow @Brissle Girl's advice you should be able to settle this without court.

 

[kazzy]

May I ask what you think the problem is in their email?

 

[AlterEgo]

May I ask what you think the problem is in their email?

It’s terribly written and with multiple grammar mistakes.

On top of that, it says that purchasing after departure is fraud.

It isn’t; it’s a different and much less serious matter - they say fraud because they like to scare you, but as you can see they’re not very bright and not that scary. They really just want to settle out of court at the end of the day.

 

[Hadders]

To add to what others have said if you co-operate with the train company (I'm assuming it's West Midlands Trains) then I expect you will be offered an out of court settlement.

I suggest you mention the following points in your reply:

- That you are sorry for what has happened
- What you have learned from the incident
- That you are keen to settle the matter without the need for court action
- Offer to pay the outstanding fare and the train company's administrative costs in dealing with the matter

If you are offered a settlement expect to have to pay the fares avoided at the full Anytime rate (with no credit given for the tickets you did purchase), in addition you will need to pay the train company's admin costs in dealing with the case which is typically around £150. You will need to be in a position to pay the settlement in full within a few days of it being offered.

Note that paying settlement might feel like paying a fine, but technically it isn't and you won't have a criminal record as a result of paying one. Only a court can impose a fine as a punishment upon conviction - so you don't want to pay a fine, you want to pay a settlement!

If you post a copy of your draft reply in this thread forum members will be happy to proof read it for you.

 

[user2234]

Hi!
Recently, I was getting a train for which I believed I had purchased a ticket for and as my train station has broken barriers I walked through without checking my Trainline app, after I got on the train I checked my app and realised my purchase hadn’t gone through so I immediately brought the same ticket on the spot however the ticket inspectors didn’t like that and reported it to the fraud team.

I received an email from the fraud team and they carried out a through investigation where they realised that I had travelled with children’s tickets on multiple occasions, trust me I know this is wrong and don’t need to be lectured on it.

They’ve asked for proof of age and my address which I will provide them however I’m looking for some advice I know this will sound silly but I am very panicked about this situation and just need advice on what to respond, I take accountability and just want this sorted, I’m more than willing to just accept the fine.

Thank you

Hello mate, I was in the exact same situation as you. The Digital team sent me a few emails then asked me to provide my date of birth before they continued any further .I sent them it (I’m 17 btw). Since I sent my date of birth I haven’t had a reply in 5 weeks, so am presuming nothing is happening. However with mine they never asked for my adress

You might have the same outcome as me but I’m not sure. Maybe because of my age and I’m under 18 they didn’t pursue it?

 

[kazzy]

It’s terribly written and with multiple grammar mistakes.

On top of that, it says that purchasing after departure is fraud.

It isn’t; it’s a different and much less serious matter - they say fraud because they like to scare you, but as you can see they’re not very bright and not that scary. They really just want to settle out of court at the end of the day.

Oh I wasn’t aware it wasn’t fraud, to be fair when I was trying to search the actual legislation section that states purchase after departure is fraud I couldn’t find anything of the sort

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 3 Jun 2024 ==

To add to what others have said if you co-operate with the train company (I'm assuming it's West Midlands Trains) then I expect you will be offered an out of court settlement.

I suggest you mention the following points in your reply:

- That you are sorry for what has happened
- What you have learned from the incident
- That you are keen to settle the matter without the need for court action
- Offer to pay the outstanding fare and the train company's administrative costs in dealing with the matter

If you are offered a settlement expect to have to pay the fares avoided at the full Anytime rate (with no credit given for the tickets you did purchase), in addition you will need to pay the train company's admin costs in dealing with the case which is typically around £150. You will need to be in a position to pay the settlement in full within a few days of it being offered.

Note that paying settlement might feel like paying a fine, but technically it isn't and you won't have a criminal record as a result of paying one. Only a court can impose a fine as a punishment upon conviction - so you don't want to pay a fine, you want to pay a settlement!

If you post a copy of your draft reply in this thread forum members will be happy to proof read it for you.

Thank you for clarifying this is very helpful!

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 3 Jun 2024 ==

Hello mate, I was in the exact same situation as you. The Digital team sent me a few emails then asked me to provide my date of birth before they continued any further .I sent them it (I’m 17 btw). Since I sent my date of birth I haven’t had a reply in 5 weeks, so am presuming nothing is happening. However with mine they never asked for my adress

You might have the same outcome as me but I’m not sure. Maybe because of my age and I’m under 18 they didn’t pursue it?

That could be why, I don’t see them wanting to continue with stuff like this when someone is not legally an adult yet, but thank you for your response!

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 3 Jun 2024 ==

Hi everyone I’ve written a draft email to send back to them. Let me know if this is okay to send!

 

[30907]

Hi everyone I’ve written a draft email to send back to them. Let me know if this is okay to send!

Sorry, the automerge facility means that your post rather got lost

Two thoughts:

1. I would confine myself to your apology, and not bother with disputing details.
You might like to re-read post #13 which suggests points to cover.

2. You need to ask If they would consider settling out of court rather than making an offer to them.

 

[Adam1997]

What a profoundly amateur email they sent back to you. Barely literate and reckons that purchasing after departure is an offence under the Fraud Act 2006.

Still, if you follow @Brissle Girl's advice you should be able to settle this without court.

I think this is at least the second email I’ve seen like this on forum from WMT to be of this standard. Maybe they have outsourced their digital fraud team to an Agency abroad

 

[185]

It’s terribly written and with multiple grammar mistakes.

On top of that, it says that purchasing after departure is fraud.

It isn’t; it’s a different and much less serious matter - they say fraud because they like to scare you, but as you can see they’re not very bright and not that scary. They really just want to settle out of court at the end of the day.

I note someone on another thread within the last few days, is being prosecuted for purchasing after departure by Chiltern Railways.

Your post plays down the potential seriousness of the situation and consequences.

 

[AlterEgo]

I note someone on another thread within the last few days, is being prosecuted for purchasing after departure by Chiltern Railways.

Your post plays down the potential seriousness of the situation and consequences.

It is not fraud and never could be when they have paid the correct fare. That is the point I am making. It is a Bylaw offence; the distinction is very clear and the gulf between these offences is very wide.

The person writing the email is simply wrong to say what they said, and they are scaremongering, and you are contributing to this.

 

[SCDR_WMR]

I think this is at least the second email I’ve seen like this on forum from WMT to be of this standard. Maybe they have outsourced their digital fraud team to an Agency abroad

They have not, it's a 3 person team in the UK. Former RPIs. Clearly rushing when writing emails, it really doesn't need to be heavily discussed unlike the actions the OP should take to resolve.

 

[furlong]

Clearly rushing when writing emails

That's no excuse unfortunately: false statements may constitute a serious procedural irregularity in the conduct of a criminal investigation - if it was a genuine mistake it ought to be corrected at the first opportunity and any response to the original communication that might have been influenced by it disregarded. (Behaviour like that - falsely implying that there was a realistic prospect of conviction for a more serious offence thereby encouraging admission of a lesser offence - apparently forms one part of the investigation into malpractice at the Post Office.) They ought to update their procedures so that they either use text from a pre-approved template or get a qualified person to check messages before they send them out.

 

[AlterEgo]

They have not, it's a 3 person team in the UK. Former RPIs. Clearly rushing when writing emails, it really doesn't need to be heavily discussed unlike the actions the OP should take to resolve.

Saying they are "committing purchase after departure fraud under the Fraud Act 2006" is nonsense though. There is no such thing. I defer to what @furlong says.

 

[SCDR_WMR]

Saying they are "committing purchase after departure fraud under the Fraud Act 2006" is nonsense though. There is no such thing. I defer to what @furlong says.

I was responding in the need to discuss the grammatical errors in an email not whether suggesting it is fraud or merely fraudulent behaviour that is being questioned.

Personally I have no issue in scaremongering as a tactic, too many people deliberately evade fares or conduct fraudulent behaviour without realising there are potentially large consequences for their actions.

Clearly stating that it comes under the Fraud Act is being creative to say the least when it comes to more simple ticketing irregularities, however there are times where on the forum we have seen passengers commit large scale ticketing scams which could, but ultimately weren't, see them convicted of fraud.

 

[390123]

I find it absurd that because there is child tickets on his account they want proof...

You are under no obligation to explain or provide them evidence of the child tickets?

For all they know you could of purchased them for a younger sibling who doesn't have an account or money in the bank at the time ?

And then this buying a ticket after departure nonsense is absurd? So what happens at unstaffed stations? You board the train and buy a ticket from the conductor on board ?

The whole presumption of people a. owning a smart phone , b. having data, c.being able to use an app, and d. Being able to pay online is absurd.

You got on the train and realised you haven't got a ticket to bought one ? Is that a crime ?

I would liase with them as previous posters have advised but be very careful what you say, as the onus is on you to provide them with the evidence it seems .

 

[furlong]

I find it absurd that because there is child tickets on his account they want proof...

What's absurd? The OP has admitted here using them when they shouldn't have so their hunches (that they did wrong and will incriminate themselves) seem to have been correct!

You got on the train and realised you haven't got a ticket to bought one ? Is that a crime ?

Today, the lower courts regularly answer "yes". (I'd be interested in the outcome if the higher courts got to examine that question with more rigour.)

 

[Cowley]

We need to be a bit careful not to stray too far away from what’s useful to the OP here.

If there’s a separate debate to be had about some the issues above then let us know and we can look at moving some posts if needs be.

Thanks

 

[aviationgeek]

May I be permitted to ask how old you are and how many child tickets you have previously purchased past the age of 15 please?

 

[AlbertBeale]

I find it absurd that because there is child tickets on his account they want proof...

You are under no obligation to explain or provide them evidence of the child tickets?

For all they know you could of purchased them for a younger sibling who doesn't have an account or money in the bank at the time ?

And then this buying a ticket after departure nonsense is absurd? So what happens at unstaffed stations? You board the train and buy a ticket from the conductor on board ?

The whole presumption of people a. owning a smart phone , b. having data, c.being able to use an app, and d. Being able to pay online is absurd.

You got on the train and realised you haven't got a ticket to bought one ? Is that a crime ?

I would liase with them as previous posters have advised but be very careful what you say, as the onus is on you to provide them with the evidence it seems .

It's a criminal offence to start a journey without already having the appropriate ticket unless there was no way to get one because the stations was unstaffed, no ticket machine to sell you the ticket you wanted, etc. No-one has to have a phone in order to buy a ticket; and you have a choice of paying by cash or card. But if you did have the possibility of getting the right ticket before starting (which most people will have on most occasions), then it's an offence not to do so.

 

[gray1404]

They have not, it's a 3 person team in the UK. Former RPIs. Clearly rushing when writing emails, it really doesn't need to be heavily discussed unlike the actions the OP should take to resolve.

I am glad this has been clarified as my understanding was that it was a small team based in Birmingham. However I had begun to wonder if it was being done abroad looking at some of the recent emails.

 

[jumble]

May I ask what you think the problem is in their email?

It appears to be written by someone who did not go to school in this country