Differing compensation policies by TOC

[orpine]

I can't help but notice different companies seem to have different things they'll refund.

A few weeks ago I tried to get a Refund for a cancelled chiltern train; a bird had struck the windscreen. I got a reply saying No Refund, and then giving a huge list of things they refuse to refund including animal related.

Conversely, several years ago I did get a refund from Cross Country for a delayed train because a Swan was on the line.
Looking atht XC refund policy:

If your journey with us was delayed by a long time, irrespective of what caused the delay you may be entitled to compensation

(My bold).

Why is this? Are XC being uncharacteristically generous? Are Chiltern just Scrooges? Chiltern are doing the minimum necessary (surprise!) why aren't XC, or do they have different rules forcing them to do stuff?

 

[yorkie]

I see you have many questions relating to fares. The good news is: you're in the right place! The even better news is that at the start of this year we launched our RailUK Fares & Ticketing Guide which has the answers to many of your questions, and questions you've probably not yet thought of!

I recommend you take a read of it, and if there is anything not covered, or anything that doesn't make sense, or you spot is out of date, we'd very much like your feedback.

I can't help but notice different companies seem to have different things they'll refund.

A few weeks ago I tried to get a Refund for a cancelled chiltern train; a bird had struck the windscreen. I got a reply saying No Refund, and then giving a huge list of things they refuse to refund including animal related.

Did you request a refund for an unused ticket or compensation for a journey you made?

Conversely, several years ago I did get a refund from Cross Country for a delayed train because a Swan was on the line.
Looking atht XC refund policy:

(My bold).

Why is this? Are XC being uncharacteristically generous? Are Chiltern just Scrooges? Chiltern are doing the minimum necessary (surprise!) why aren't XC, or do they have different rules forcing them to do stuff?

See Compensation: Delay Repay Schemes vs Compensation: Passenger's Charter Schemes

Perhaps one day the DfT will require Chiltern to operate a Delay Repay scheme, and if that happens there would be consistency between these operators.

 

[Muzer]

CrossCountry are in the newer Delay Repay scheme which is a lot more generous. Chiltern, being an older franchise, aren't, they instead use the much less passenger-favourable Passenger Charter scheme - though I must say, at least some Passenger Charter TOCs do seem to go above and beyond the requirements of the scheme to make it more favourable to the passenger. It surprises me a little that Chiltern haven't done this.

 

[dtaylor84]

Also, while I have no idea whether it had any bearing on your experiences, I did recently discover that the Delay Attribution Guide distinguishes between incidents involving birds depending on whether the average weight of the species involved is greater or lesser than that of a pheasant...

 

[orpine]

I filled in the refund form or whatever that Chiltern Have. I think it's the "customer feedback" form that just happens to have a checkbox for compensation/refund.

@Yorkie - Looking at the given links doesn't clarify I'm afraid. It does confirm that XC is on a "Delay Repay Schemes" and Chiltern "Passenger's Charter Schemes"

Also, while I have no idea whether it had any bearing on your experiences, I did recently discover that the Delay Attribution Guide distinguishes between incidents involving birds depending on whether the average weight of the species involved is greater or lesser than that of a pheasant...

The reply I got from Chiltern explicitly says "a large bird". No weights given.



=========================

One other difference I noticed - Chiltern have a box where you can ask for a cheque if the refund value is greater than £35. No such box for XC. Will XC always refund in vouchers irrespective of the value? http://www.railforums.co.uk/showpost.php?p=1197389&postcount=8 is unclear using the word "usually".

 

[bb21]

No such box for XC. Will XC always refund in vouchers irrespective of the value? http://www.railforums.co.uk/showpost.php?p=1197389&postcount=8 is unclear using the word "usually".

If it is a refund, it should be via the original payment method.

If it is for compensation (such as Delay Repay) then it will always be RTVs with XC AFAIK.

 

[TEW]

Also, while I have no idea whether it had any bearing on your experiences, I did recently discover that the Delay Attribution Guide distinguishes between incidents involving birds depending on whether the average weight of the species involved is greater or lesser than that of a pheasant...

That could almost be relevant. For delay attribution a big bird striking the train is attributed to Network Rail, they shouldn't have let it on the line but a small bird striking the train is attributed to the TOC, your trains shouldn't break down just because of a small bird. Since compensation under passenger charters is generally limited to things within the rail industry's control, should compensation be payable for a small bird strike, since the attitude within the industry seems to be a small bird shouldn't be delaying the train too much.

 

[Llanigraham]

And Swans in the the 4ft are a "stop the job" in the Rule Book,

 

[DownSouth]

That could almost be relevant. For delay attribution a big bird striking the train is attributed to Network Rail, they shouldn't have let it on the line but a small bird striking the train is attributed to the TOC, your trains shouldn't break down just because of a small bird. Since compensation under passenger charters is generally limited to things within the rail industry's control, should compensation be payable for a small bird strike, since the attitude within the industry seems to be a small bird shouldn't be delaying the train too much.

Just curiously, do the delay attribution rules distinguish between flightless big birds that NR shouldn't let on the line and flying big birds, or are flying big birds also attributed to NR because they should have put the whole railway in hermetically sealed tunnels?

Locomotives leading trains on the transcontinental routes in Australia must be able to hit a bloated eagle (i.e. an eagle that has just had a big lunch and is too heavy to fly quickly) at full speed without damage to the loco. No anti-eagle/roo armour on the front means that type cannot only work the East-West and Adelaide-Darwin corridors when in a non-leading position on a multi-headed train.

 

[yorkie]

The reply I got from Chiltern explicitly says "a large bird". No weights given.

Reading between the lines, it's a compensation claim. I have edited the thread title to reflect this.

 

[orpine]

your trains shouldn't break down just because of a small bird.

That's what I was thinking - Aeroplanes have windscreens rated to hundreds of miles an hour. High speed trains go several times faster than any Chiltern ever will - they get hit by birds and while they may get cancelled, the windscreen is still intact. After all, energy increases I think to the cube of speed (or maybe just the square), so twice the speed is a hell of a lot more energy. Thus, why did the Chiltern take enough damage that someone decided to cancel it for "safety" reasons?

Reading between the lines, it's a compensation claim. I have edited the thread title to reflect this.

Thanks.

 

[Fare-Cop]

That's what I was thinking - Aeroplanes have windscreens rated to hundreds of miles an hour. High speed trains go several times faster than any Chiltern ever will - they get hit by birds and while they may get cancelled, the windscreen is still intact. After all, energy increases I think to the cube of speed (or maybe just the square), so twice the speed is a hell of a lot more energy. Thus, why did the Chiltern take enough damage that someone decided to cancel it for "safety" reasons?

The angle of a windscreen will have a bearing on how it absorbs or deflects any impact.

 

[tsr]

High speed trains go several times faster than any Chiltern ever will - they get hit by birds and while they may get cancelled, the windscreen is still intact.

Find me a HST which a) goes "several times faster" than a Chiltern Mainline set would between London & Birmingham at mean linespeed and b) will not suffer significant windscreen damage if hit by a large bird at that speed.

Plus... windscreens aren't the only things damaged by bird strikes. For a train, consider the coupling areas, lights, horn (depends on position) and windscreen wipers. Serious damage to any of these things may result in disruption to the service. Maybe the explanation given concerned the windscreen, but the train couldn't continue because part of the bird had damaged the lights.

As usual, with the railways... it's complicated! But I agree that the variation in compensation schemes can seem odd on the face of it. If only Delay Repay had been implemented for all franchises - but it's a nice bonus only when you do use others, for now. And I don't know what likelihood there is of the current Chiltern franchise putting in place any such thing, but I guess it's fairly low for the foreseeable future!

 

[orpine]

Find me a HST which a) goes "several times faster" than a Chiltern Mainline set would between London & Birmingham at mean linespeed and b) will not suffer significant windscreen damage if hit by a large bird at that speed.

My physics is weak, but just doubling the speed multiplies the energy involved by four. So yes, a high speed train will take damage, but there is 4 times the energy involved; and that's assuming just 160mph to Chilterns ~80 or so.
Maybe it was just a particularly unlucky strike. Oh well.

 

[tsr]

My physics is weak, but just doubling the speed multiplies the energy involved by four. So yes, a high speed train will take damage, but there is 4 times the energy involved; and that's assuming just 160mph to Chilterns ~80 or so.
Maybe it was just a particularly unlucky strike. Oh well.

At risk of going off-topic...

I'm pretty sure HSTs shouldn't be exceeding 125mph on any lines, and are not officially recorded as ever having travelled at speeds higher than 148mph under their own power...

High Speed 1 is a limited example of higher linespeeds being available, but I should imagine windscreen impact protection is somewhat more efficient for newer trains used on these routes.

You are, however, correct that there is a considerable increase in the effect of the impact - depending on windshield angle, direction of travel of the unfortunate bird, speed of the train, point at which the bird impacts (to some extent, I think)... etc.

 

[Flamingo]

Also going off topic, and an unverified story, I was told once that when testing train windscreens for birdstrikes, one of the aircraft manufacturers was asked what they used to test, and they said they fired frozen chickens at the windscreens out of an air-cannon at the appropriate speed.

After testing, the train manufacturer got back on to the aircraft manufacturer, and said "How do you manage it? Our windscreens are breaking at very low speeds".

An engineer from the aircraft company came out, looked at a test, and sure enough, the windscreen disintegrated at only 30 mph. However, he did see what the problem was.

"You need to defrost the chickens first!".

 

[orpine]

I've heard that one before; probably apocryphl rather than genuine.
However mythbusters made the same mistake when they tested aircraft windows! They had to do it again with a non-frozen bird; the window then did much better.