Different options for MPs leaving their existing parties

[northwichcat]

I imagine both the Conservative and Labour parties could see some MPs leaving their parties, depending on who is leader of both parties come the autumn.

When two Conservatives left the party for UKIP during the last term there were by-elections. Is it mandatory for a by-election to occur under such circumstances or just a good idea?

If there was a party split with numerous MPs forming a break away party does that change anything with regards to by-elections?

 

[gordonthemoron]

there is no compulsion for a byelection. Voters elect a candidate, not a party

 

[crehld]

there is no compulsion for a byelection. Voters elect a candidate, not a party

Indeed. Defections to other parties, or resigning the party whip to become an independent MP regularly happen and there are rarely by-elections in such circumstances.

In the case of Carswell and Reckless they sought re-election as a way to legitimize their defection, but it was their choice to make.

 

[me123]

^That is true Gordon. In theory, the electorate select an MP and is not selecting a party (at least, that's true in the Westminster system).

However, in reality, voters do tend to support political parties over individual candidates. The candidates tend to stand on the manifestos of their sponsoring political party, and changing party may alter how they vote. So it is often considered reasonable that an MP holds a by-election in this situation (and rightly so IMO).

Let's take a hypothetical MP who was a member of the (hopefully fictional) National Union for the Abolition of Gravity, and was elected under their banner to the constituency of Cityville. Half way through his term, he realises the benefits that gravity brings to our day to day lives, and moves to join the Gravity Preservation Party. He is still the MP for Cityville, but a lot of its citizens will not be happy as they supported him largely because he was going to abolish the shackles of gravity. So many would therefore suggest that he should stand again to demonstrate his mandate.

Becoming an independent MP is a very different scenario - you're not signing on to a different set of values (likely to have been rejected by the electorate at your election), rather you're standing up for your own values which will almost certainly be similar to the platform you stood on for the election.

Whilst it's not the way the system is supposed to work, it is the reality of the current situation that a large number of voters support political parties over individual candidates.

 

[Tetchytyke]

However, in reality, voters do tend to support political parties over individual candidates. The candidates tend to stand on the manifestos of their sponsoring political party, and changing party may alter how they vote. So it is often considered reasonable that an MP holds a by-election in this situation (and rightly so IMO).

There is no compulsion to hold a by-election though, regardless of why a MP leaves the seat. The people of Witney know this when their MP Shaun Woodward defected to Labour after being sacked from the opposition front benches by William Hague for daring to support the repeal of Section 28; he didn't stand down and so they had a Labour MP for two years, even though most of them had probably voted for Woodward simply because he was the Conservative candidate.

Carswell and Reckless chose to resign, triggering a by-election, but that was entirely their choice to make. It was the honourable thing to do (even if the motivation was scoring points for UKIP and legitimising their decision) but there was no obligation for them to do it. Most MPs who change parties do not resign and do not trigger a by-election.

 

[me123]

Yes, as I said there's no legal compulsion. But there would be a legitimate democratic expectation by many. I'd argue that it would be the right option in those circumstances to trigger a by-election, even though it would not be mandatory (I can't believe I'm seemingly in agreement with UKIP on this!).

 

[northwichcat]

I was aware of people leaving parties to become independents but wasn't aware of a Conservative switching to Labour without a by-election.

As Cameron said the Conservative's position was to remain in a reformed EU, I imagine some pro-remain Conservative MPs could leave the party and argue being independent/in another party means they are standing on the principles their constituents originally elected them for more than they would be in the Conservative party.

 

[Tetchytyke]

I'd argue that it would be the right option in those circumstances to trigger a by-election, even though it would not be mandatory

If someone resigns the whip then they probably should resign as an MP and trigger a by-election. I don't think it should be mandatory though. What about MPs who have the whip removed from them because they don't do as they are told? I don't think forcing these MPs out would be good for democracy, as it would put more and more power into a small number of party hands.

The Corbyn Coup is a great example. If MPs who are forced out of the party are forced out of Westminster, then it places more power than is deserved in the hands of the likes of Momentum.

 

[me123]

You seem to be pigeon holing me into a position which I do not hold.

I do not agree that it should be mandatory, I think it is the right thing for the MP to seek legitimacy when they change to another political party. I think we're actually in agreement!

 

[Tetchytyke]

I think we're actually in agreement!

I think we are too

 

[Busaholic]

I was aware of people leaving parties to become independents but wasn't aware of a Conservative switching to Labour without a by-election.

As Cameron said the Conservative's position was to remain in a reformed EU, I imagine some pro-remain Conservative MPs could leave the party and argue being independent/in another party means they are standing on the principles their constituents originally elected them for more than they would be in the Conservative party.

I'm going on memory here, but as it's so phenomenal () I recollect a rather 'wet' Tory who represented Stamford switching to Labour without his electorate being given a say in the matter - don't rec ollect the name, though it'll probably come to me about 4 a.m

 

[Butts]

I was aware of people leaving parties to become independents but wasn't aware of a Conservative switching to Labour without a by-election.

As Cameron said the Conservative's position was to remain in a reformed EU, I imagine some pro-remain Conservative MPs could leave the party and argue being independent/in another party means they are standing on the principles their constituents originally elected them for more than they would be in the Conservative party.

You must have a short memory then, John Davies elected as a Conservative MP for Stamford in 2005 defected to Labour in 2007. He did not stand in 2010.

 

[Busaholic]

You must have a short memory then, John Davies elected as a Conservative MP for Stamford in 2005 defected to Labour in 2007. He did not stand in 2010.

The name has come back to me - QUENTIN Davies was the name he was certainly known by, may have had a knighthood too - in appearance he rather resembled Sir Nicholas Soames, and had just about as much influence in his party/parties!

 

[backontrack]

I think we're actually in agreement!

I don't agree with that statement, sorry.

 

[me123]

^Well, the two parties who are in agreement state that they are in agreement, so... huh?

 

[W-on-Sea]

Robert Jackson in Wantage defected from the Tories to Labour in 2005.

There was also Bob Spink, in Castle Point, Essex, who left the Tories to join UKIP, and then, a few months later, became an independent, all while still remaining an MP (and then failed to be elected at the next general election as an independent)

 

[Busaholic]

John Horam takes some beating for his chutzpah - a Labour MP who defected to the SDP without giving the voters a chance to re-commit, or not. When he failed at the following General Election to convince the voters, after a period in the wilderness he became a Tory and got elected for Orpington, ironic given that had been a famous Liberal by-election victory in the early 1960s.

 

[northwichcat]

You must have a short memory then, John Davies elected as a Conservative MP for Stamford in 2005 defected to Labour in 2007. He did not stand in 2010.

I don't have a short memory - I never knew that happened in the first place as I don't follow what all of the 650 MPs do.

 

[AM9]

John Horam takes some beating for his chutzpah - a Labour MP who defected to the SDP without giving the voters a chance to re-commit, or not. When he failed at the following General Election to convince the voters, after a period in the wilderness he became a Tory and got elected for Orpington, ironic given that had been a famous Liberal by-election victory in the early 1960s.

That was Eric Lubbock, later to become Lord Avebury, and even later died in 2006 as the longest serving Lib Dem peer.

 

[Butts]

I don't have a short memory - I never knew that happened in the first place as I don't follow what all of the 650 MPs do.

You are lucky then , wait till you get a little older

 

[Busaholic]

That was Eric Lubbock, later to become Lord Avebury, and even later died in 2006 as the longest serving Lib Dem peer.

Probably just a typo on your part, but he died earlier this year. Orpington was a place where a number of old-style Liberals refused to acknowledge the LibDems and tried to carry on with their old party. North Devon and North Cornwall, both with long Liberal traditions, also kept a few diehards.As an aside, Nigel Farage grew up with Lubbock as his MP, which might explain a lot.

 

[317 forever]

there is no compulsion for a byelection. Voters elect a candidate, not a party

This means that, in theory at least, 50 MPs could defect from the Conservatives to Labour, and we would have a Labour minority government by the back door.

I was aware of people leaving parties to become independents but wasn't aware of a Conservative switching to Labour without a by-election.

As Cameron said the Conservative's position was to remain in a reformed EU, I imagine some pro-remain Conservative MPs could leave the party and argue being independent/in another party means they are standing on the principles their constituents originally elected them for more than they would be in the Conservative party.

As well as Quentin Davies mentioned, there was also Shaun Woodward, whose defection and "parachuting" from Witney to St Helens South created a vacancy at Witney for David Cameron to become their MP. Peter Temple-Morris also defected similarly, but he was already standing down as an MP by then.

John Horam takes some beating for his chutzpah - a Labour MP who defected to the SDP without giving the voters a chance to re-commit, or not. When he failed at the following General Election to convince the voters, after a period in the wilderness he became a Tory and got elected for Orpington, ironic given that had been a famous Liberal by-election victory in the early 1960s.

He also pledged in 1997 to stay out of the Euro despite the Conservatives' then official policy to "negotiate and decide" otherwise known as "wait and see". Jeremy Paxman remarked to John Horam that he was drfting ever further to the right.