Difference for first class in various trains

[LiftFan]

I travel to London a fair amount by train and my sister occasionally decides she's buying me first class tickets so I ride in some units first class thinking "This is definitely worth it" and others thinking "All that money for THIS?".
What do you think the worst and best units and TOCs are for first class passengers?
So far, I think GWR's intercity trains are the best I've ridden first class with leather seats, free paper and refreshments and a nice quiet carriage with better internet; riding on a Southern 377 it honestly feels like a waste of money as it is often an open compartment with nothing more than headrest covers to say you've paid extra for comfort. Not a free digestive in sight!

 

[Master29]

Whilst I agree GWR first class is fantastic room and comfort wise as well as regular trolley freebies, I think Virgin East Coast just beats it with more complimentary offerings as well as a similar level of comfort. Southern and South Eastern are nothing special but usually not that much dearer anyway.

 

[Clansman]

Can't really say there was a worst since Scotrail declassified it's 158s, which had shocking first class - same seats and layouts as standard, but with smaller table space at the expense of having a lamp and 1 plug socket.
Also, the Scotrail 170s built between 1999-2001 with First Class, as well as AGA's refurbished 170s, actually have smaller seat bases than in standard if you have a sharp eye to notice.

Only experienced GWR first class when it was FGW as a kid, don't remember much of it. VTEC wins it for me as the seats are big, generous leg room, free wifi and frequent complimentary service.

 

[sk688]

London Midland 1st doesn't have too many additional benefits , and Is frequently declassified when trains are ( usually) short formed

Chiltern business zone is nice

Like the 2+1 VTWC

My favourite would have to be the premium selection on 373s. Loved those

 

[Failed Unit]

Great northern the seats on the 365 are much nicer. (The 317s and the 321s the same situation applies even if the 317 in first was the same seat as the Ic125 in standard)

If you know your service will be formed of a 387. Don't buy a first ticket. If seats are available you get nothing. If you are close to the end of the route you just get a better chance of a seat before they declassify the train.

 

[dk1]

AGA's refurbished 170s, actually have smaller seat bases than in standard if you have a sharp eye to notice.

I think you are confusing the 2 & 3 car sets there & nothing to do with the refurb. 170201-208 had & still have superior first class seating that rivals most anywhere. 170270-273 had the narrower, less comfortable & forever braking seat adjusters since they where built in 2002. The 2-car sets always had plugs in 1st too.

 

[jopsuk]

Greater Anglia are eliminating 1st Class from all but the London-Norwich express services when the new fleets are introduced.

Apparently GTR wanted to eliminate 1st Class on Thameslink but DfT stopped that. I predict now that'll change when the franchise comes up for renewal. Same for Southeastern, most of the Southern operation. I'm a little surprised the new South West franchise is keeping it on most routes- I'd have thought they would reduce it to just Class 444, Class 442 and Class 159 services. Similarly with GWR, I'd not be surprised if in the near future it goes from the "Thames Valley" routes. Chiltern don't have it*, neither do c2c

*well, apart from Business Zone on the Silver services.

 

[SpacePhoenix]

Does any TOC really need 1st class for any metro and/or suburban routes?

 

[Frontera2]

Does any TOC really need 1st class for any metro and/or suburban routes?

It generates a LOT of additional revenue in some cases. I believe, for example, that the Sevenoaks to London flow has one of the highest concentration of 1st class season ticket holders in the country.

 

[Mag_seven]

1st class really only works on Intercity stock where you have sufficient accommodation to provide significant extra space and provide catering etc. Its a dead duck on suburban stock.

 

[jimm]

Greater Anglia are eliminating 1st Class from all but the London-Norwich express services when the new fleets are introduced.

Apparently GTR wanted to eliminate 1st Class on Thameslink but DfT stopped that. I predict now that'll change when the franchise comes up for renewal. Same for Southeastern, most of the Southern operation. I'm a little surprised the new South West franchise is keeping it on most routes- I'd have thought they would reduce it to just Class 444, Class 442 and Class 159 services. Similarly with GWR, I'd not be surprised if in the near future it goes from the "Thames Valley" routes. Chiltern don't have it*, neither do c2c

*well, apart from Business Zone on the Silver services.

1st class really only works on Intercity stock where you have sufficient accommodation to provide significant extra space and provide catering etc. Its a dead duck on suburban stock.

In a number of cases, as Frontera2 says, it does generate extra income from people prepared to pay more to get a seat in the peaks, who aren't that fussed about whether there is a 'free' small cup of something.

Whether GWR installs first on 387s once they start working as far as Newbury and Didcot/Oxford (perhaps Swindon if the latest chatter about possible stabling sidings there is accurate) remains to be seen. Though if they do, I would expect it will be a rather better seat than seen in first on 387s up until now.

First class has been retained for now on the 166s as they work out to Newbury and up the Cotswold Line, where there are still decent flows, but the Cotswold Line is going over to 800/802 operation all the time by the end of next year (bar a two-car 165/1 on the peak stoppers serving the Oxfordshire halts) and the extra Berks & Hants semi-fasts on the Newbury route will mean there are a fair few trains with first class provision across the day, so the 387s may well stay standard-only. With the 166s Bristol-bound, first class will go on them once permanent transfers to St Philips Marsh start.

 

[Hadders]

1st class on GTRs Great Northern branded 387 trains is exactly the same as standard.

I've no objection to appropriate 1st class on outer suburban services. Some journeys are quite long, it brings in additional revenue for the TOCs and passengers might be using a local service to connect into a long distance 1st class journey and would feel short changed if they had to slum it for the connecting part.

 

[43096]

1st class on GTRs Great Northern branded 387 trains is exactly the same as standard.

Same on Gatwick Express 387s. Frankly, GTR are just ripping off their customers with the prices they charge for FC.

 

[dk1]

Surely we are always going to need some sort of superior accommodation otherwise where else are staff supposed to travel or crash out?

 

[Mikey C]

On commuter services, don't people pay the extra because they can more or less guarantee a seat, and the area won't be crammed with standees?

In terms of "inter city" services, I like the VTWC first class seats, as the standard class seats are so cramped and claustrophobic, so it's a good step up! You cam get some very good advance deals as well

 

[physics34]

Same on Gatwick Express 387s. Frankly, GTR are just ripping off their customers with the prices they charge for FC.

An american relative thought he'd treat himself to first class after he had just arrived at gatwick, but then commented to me how it was a rip off and the seats were hard! Such short sightedness, although it could well be calculated. Its clear the powers that be want first class to be scrapped.


..In the meantime though they couldve received nicer seats from new at only a few pounds more per seat.....really really shameful.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

On commuter services, don't people pay the extra because they can more or less guarantee a seat, and the area won't be crammed with standees?

In terms of "inter city" services, I like the VTWC first class seats, as the standard class seats are so cramped and claustrophobic, so it's a good step up! You cam get some very good advance deals as well

On L&SE commuter services first is essentially equivalent to "priority boarding" on low cost airlines. It probably should be advertised as such.

 

[43096]

An american relative thought he'd treat himself to first class after he had just arrived at gatwick, but then commented to me how it was a rip off and the seats were hard! Such short sightedness, although it could well be calculated. Its clear the powers that be want first class to be scrapped.


..In the meantime though they couldve received nicer seats from new at only a few pounds more per seat.....really really shameful.

I'd love to see someone put in a complaint to Trading Standards about it.

 

[Mordac]

First class on London Midland is kind of ****, especially because the seats seem to be worst than standard (certainly harder). But, it is worth it on certain longer flows when you can get really nice discounts. I did it from Northampton to Liverpool, changing at Birmingham, last month, on a really cheap advance that I was able to buy--cheaper than any standard class available at the time!!! Dunno if that was a glitch in the pricing engine, but was well appreciated.

First class on the VTWC Pendolinos with at seat meals is great. Did it a few months ago from Glasgow to Rugby. At seat dinner and free booze, what more could you ask for?

 

[Deepgreen]

Leaving aside the well-known joke GTR first class (the argument that people only pay for seats, not their comfort, doesn't wash as it it quite feasible to provide more comfortable seats in the same space as the ironing boards!), the GWR 166s have disgraceful first class - the window stickers have almost all gone (seemingly not by vandalism, judging by the clean removals), the anti-macassars too have all gone and virtually none of the vestibule doors work. I complained to GWR's MD Mark Hopwood and the response was that the 166 fleet was being reviewed, and that first class would stay on the North Downs line Gatwick workings. The anti-macassars issue was put down to a supply problem with the new corporate identity, which I don't buy for a moment (there are enough examples of FGW branding likely to be around for years yet!).

An utter mess and seemingly of little concern to GWR - so much for their corporate messages about passenger comfort and service details!

 

[Parallel]

The only first class I have ever used has been GWR HSTs and found it to be really good. Really comfortable seats, big tables and complimentary snacks. I have used the first class area on SWT's 158/159s, but it was ran by GWR and declassified. The standard seats are already really comfy, but the first class seats when reclined are even comfier IMO.

There were some good first class advances going so I'm booked myself onto a service diagrammed to be a GWR 180 in a couple of weeks. I do want to try out the premier offering with ATW in the future.

 

[Mag_seven]

the GWR 166s have disgraceful first class - the window stickers have almost all gone (seemingly not by vandalism, judging by the clean removals), the anti-macassars too have all gone

The 1st accommodation has been declassified at one end on the GWR 166's- are you sure it was not one of those compartments you are referring to?

 

[CosherB]

Does any TOC really need 1st class for any metro and/or suburban routes?

I'd say so, yes .....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DDTvLldOgZs

 

[SeanG]

The only 1st class I have recently used has been in a 185 and a mk4, and also a declassified Scotrail 158. I cannot say that the seats/accomodation was any better/comfier. In fact the view was obscured by the curtains in some cases. The perks of free food seems to be the only benefits to me over the standard accommodation on the same train.

 

[greaterwest]

The 1st accommodation has been declassified at one end on the GWR 166's- are you sure it was not one of those compartments you are referring to?

As somone who uses that line too, I can confirm everything Deepgreen has said is correct. Most compartment doors are locked open, there are no anti-macassars and no clear labelling of declassification/whether it's actually First Class or not.

One of the few good things about the 166s is the fact that the 1st class seats are at least comfortable.

This also isn't helped by so-called "Coupe Class" on 166 205 (the fully refurbished unit) where the seating design is somewhere between 1st and Standard class

 

[Mikey C]

First class on London Midland is kind of ****, especially because the seats seem to be worst than standard (certainly harder). But, it is worth it on certain longer flows when you can get really nice discounts. I did it from Northampton to Liverpool, changing at Birmingham, last month, on a really cheap advance that I was able to buy--cheaper than any standard class available at the time!!! Dunno if that was a glitch in the pricing engine, but was well appreciated.

First class on the VTWC Pendolinos with at seat meals is great. Did it a few months ago from Glasgow to Rugby. At seat dinner and free booze, what more could you ask for?

Off peak VTWC during the week is well worth it as well with a decent Advance ticket, the minimal extra cost is well worth the snacks/sandwich, booze and having seats with tables that line up properly with the windows, so that you see out of both sides!

 

[Deepgreen]

As somone who uses that line too, I can confirm everything Deepgreen has said is correct. Most compartment doors are locked open, there are no anti-macassars and no clear labelling of declassification/whether it's actually First Class or not.

One of the few good things about the 166s is the fact that the 1st class seats are at least comfortable.

This also isn't helped by so-called "Coupe Class" on 166 205 (the fully refurbished unit) where the seating design is somewhere between 1st and Standard class

Indeed - It has been confirmed by Mark Hopwood that the situation is not satisfactory, but nothing seems to be being done about it. 166205's seating is one thing, but it has been compounded by the fact that the external labelling is also wrong!

I think the NDL is a mini-scandal. The de-classification of first class has been shambolic, with poor or downright wrong signing, and an almost complete lack of information for passengers on whether first class actually applies. The only information I have seen anywhere about it since its introduction in October 2015 has been the timetable column headings where the '1' symbol disappeared from the stopping workings (and even some of those were shown wrongly as having first!). The de-classification was a sound idea and adjusted the accommodation provision more to match demand, but it has been executed staggeringly badly.

It is mystifying why the guard cannot announce the de-classification as a standard message, or even have it recorded to replace the verbose ones about having tickets and travel documents ready or reporting anything suspicious or anyone acting suspiciously (the same thing!), rather than them simply repeating the recorded messages!

GWR failing miserably to provide the 'customer service' it so loudly proclaimed at its re-launch!

 

[me123]

I personally think that First Class needs to offer something more than a bigger seat - certainly I'm not going to pay a premium just for a better seat away from the plebs.

I like what you get on Virgin (both coasts). You get your nice seat, but you also get a reasonable complimentary offer that is entirely appropriate for the length of journey you are getting. We could moan about portion sizes and nitpick about some minor points here and there, but on the whole it's worth paying for (at the right price). There is an argument for offering a paid service to increase quality, granted, but I think that

I would suggest that the minimum service offering for FC would be

• Better seat (1+2 arrangement at worst), with space to work
• Complimentary Wi-Fi (where available)
• Privacy in a clearly defined part of the train
• Complimentary refreshment offering proportional to length of journey (this could be as little as a cup of tea and a biscuit on short routes, more akin to Virgin on longer trips). A paid for option is perfectly fine as long as it's reasonably priced, and a complimentary element is retained.

For me, if it doesn't meet this standard I won't be paying. That very much is the case for the first class accommodation in suburban London, where it appears to entail paying a premium for a greater chance of a seat.

 

[PudseyBearHST]

I think for metro/surbaban routes, first class is just there so you can get a seat. Just realised this is the same thing Mikey said