Difference between London Thameslink origin and "Thameslink Only" route

[AlbertBeale]

Sorry if this info is already buried here somewhere...

I understand that a ticket from "London Thameslink" to Brighton is supposed to be used only from the London stations which Thameslink serves, and the Cheap Day Return ticket on that route is cheaper (at weekends, even more cheaper) than a CDR ticket you can use from any relevant south London terminal.

But there are tickets printed as valid from London Terminals to Brighton with a route printed on them as "Thameslink Only". Does that mean they can officially be used at the London end to link to the Thameslink trains from another terminal? I have seen that, for instance, this ticket will open ticket gates at Waterloo East to enable a connection with Thameslink at London Bridge without paying to get from Waterloo to London Bridge.

A slightly different anomaly is that on the National Rail Enquiries website [for what that's worth!], if you search for London-Brighton return tickets and choose one of the cheaper ones shown (ie one from a Thameslink station), in some cases the option given has a change of train en route, using a Thameslink train from London and changing onto a non-Thameslink-branded train at East Croydon - though presumably the cheaper tickets aren't supposed to be used for those trains to Brighton?

[I remember, from discussion here ages ago, that there is a case that these restrictions aren't - ultimately - legally enforceable anyway, given that there is no legal basis for tickets distinguishing between brands of the same company. However, this query relates to what's likely to be feasible, or recognised by staff, in actual practice (without giving up chunks of one's life to fighting a court case).]

Thanks for any clarity that can be offered - if such is possible.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Note: this reply ignores the issue of whether all tickets routed via one GTR brand are valid on all their brands or not.

Just because it opens gates doesn't mean they are valid. London Terminals would be valid from London Bridge or Blackfriars edit: or City Thameslink. London Thameslink is valid from anywhere in the core (St Pancras southwards in this case). It takes account of the fact that Thameslink's core is ticketing-wise sort of a Tube line.

 

[717001]

There is a useful diagram half way down page below, which explains the “London Terminals” stations and “London Thameslink” stations - when travelling from the south (or north): https://www.national-rail.co.uk/times_fares/ticket_types/46587.aspx
(Sorry can’t see how to add screenshot from iPad)
That relates to where you travel to or from, whereas the “Thameslink only” applies to what trains can be used.
Wish they had come up with a different name for the central London station grouping!

 

[JB_B]

Route 00789 Thameslink Only is a route restriction - it limits you to using Thameslink trains only. (But for route Thameslink Only travelcards you can use any operator within the zones - that's why you might see a route offered changing operator at East Croydon. )

London Thameslink is a (set of) destination(s)/origins(s).

See this link https://www.nationalrail.co.uk/times_fares/ticket_types/46587.aspx ( couple of pages down .)


[ Edit: as per @717001 above and I'm also following @Bletchleyite in not exploring the enforceability of restrictions by TOC brand.]

 

[AlbertBeale]

Thanks all for that. So the fact that a ticket opens a gate proves nothing!

If a London Thameslink ticket is origin/destination, not route, then a London Thameslink origin ticket - unless it also specified Thameslink as the route - would be valid to change from Thameslink to Southern trains part way, suggesting it would be less restrictive than one marked London Terminals but with Thameslink as the route.

Assuming that what I saw on the NRE website - with one of the cheaper CDR tickets [note, nothing to do with a travelcard ticket] being routed from a Thameslink station to Brighton via a change of train onto Southern at East Croydon - would have given me a ticket marked as Thameslink route only (if all the cheaper tickets say that), then how does the NRE offer square with that? Is such an offer there evidence that using other trains is valid providing part of the journey is on Thameslink? I'd understood that an itinerary given by something like NRE was proof of validity?

 

[Kite159]

If you have a ticket from London Thameslink and travelling between St Pancras to say Brighton, the route might suggest something like a Thameslink from St Pancras to East Croydon, changing onto a Southern service if that Southern service overtakes the Thameslink [i.e. it goes via Redhill] or the Thameslink is a Gatwick/Horsham service and changing at East Croydon.

 

[JB_B]

Thanks all for that. So the fact that a ticket opens a gate proves nothing!

If a London Thameslink ticket is origin/destination, not route, then a London Thameslink origin ticket - unless it also specified Thameslink as the route - would be valid to change from Thameslink to Southern trains part way, suggesting it would be less restrictive than one marked London Terminals but with Thameslink as the route.

Assuming that what I saw on the NRE website - with one of the cheaper CDR tickets [note, nothing to do with a travelcard ticket] being routed from a Thameslink station to Brighton via a change of train onto Southern at East Croydon - would have given me a ticket marked as Thameslink route only (if all the cheaper tickets say that), then how does the NRE offer square with that? Is such an offer there evidence that using other trains is valid providing part of the journey is on Thameslink? I'd understood that an itinerary given by something like NRE was proof of validity?

Can you say what specific journey you were looking at and what specific itinerary and ticket NRE is suggesting?

 

[Haywain]

So the fact that a ticket opens a gate proves nothing!

Absolutely correct.

 

[AlbertBeale]

Can you say what specific journey you were looking at and what specific itinerary and ticket NRE is suggesting?

As an example, searching for a Blackfriars-Brighton CDR for tomorrow, it offers me only the cheaper T/L-only tickets (fair enough, if I specify Blackfriars rather than London in general).
http://ojp.nationalrail.co.uk/service/timesandfares/BFR/BTN/tomorrow/1000/dep/tomorrow/1530/dep

The results include a 10.14am departure as being available at that price ticket (£18.70 CDR), with the details showing it doesn't go to Brighton so to change at East Croydon for the 10.41 Southern train.

So that's an example of a lower-priced CDR (which presumably would be printed with perhaps a T/L origin rather than London Terminals, and certainly a T/L-only routing) as being - according to NRE - valid to make part of the journey by Southern...

I actually follow these things a bit more than the average punter (though nothing like the way some of you experts do!), and I get befuddled. So what's it like for "regular folk"?

 

[AlbertBeale]

Absolutely correct.

I have to say that it never occurred to me that such could be the case. I'd always assumed that the gates were like a ticket checker on the gate line. If you can get through, I'd say - from an amateur perspective - that's prima facie evidence that you're not travelling invalidly. I'd certainly kick up a fuss if either a person or a machine looked at my ticket and let me through, and I was then hauled up on the train as having done something wrong. Given the complexities of all this, I'd argue that trying to use a ticket is a reasonable way of checking whether you can. If either a human or a machine lets you through, then...

 

[Haywain]

I have to say that it never occurred to me that such could be the case. I'd always assumed that the gates were like a ticket checker on the gate line. If you can get through, I'd say - from an amateur perspective - that's prima facie evidence that you're not travelling invalidly. I'd certainly kick up a fuss if either a person or a machine looked at my ticket and let me through, and I was then hauled up on the train as having done something wrong. Given the complexities of all this, I'd argue that trying to use a ticket is a reasonable way of checking whether you can. If either a human or a machine lets you through, then...

The case of the barrier failing to prove that you have a ticket valid at that station is relatively unusual, but barriers cannot verify that you have a ticket that is valid for the train you then choose to board, or at the time you choose to board the train. For example, a ticket from East Croydon to Brighton will allow access to the platforms at East Croydon but this does not give implied permission to then board a train heading towards Bedford. Similarly, holding an Advance ticket gains you access to the platforms but does nothing to prevent you boarding a train on which the ticket is not valid, either before or after your booked time of travel.

 

[Surreytraveller]

Gates are dumb. A ticket with 'London Terminals' is likey to open a gate at any station within the 'London Terminals' range. It would open the gates at Paddington, even though it isn't valid there. Gates cannot work out whether a ticket is valid or not.

 

[JB_B]

As an example, searching for a Blackfriars-Brighton CDR for tomorrow, it offers me only the cheaper T/L-only tickets (fair enough, if I specify Blackfriars rather than London in general).
http://ojp.nationalrail.co.uk/service/timesandfares/BFR/BTN/tomorrow/1000/dep/tomorrow/1530/dep

The results include a 10.14am departure as being available at that price ticket (£18.70 CDR), with the details showing it doesn't go to Brighton so to change at East Croydon for the 10.41 Southern train.

The price is the same but the ticket NRE offers for the 10:14 departure ( changing onto Southern at East Croydon ) isn't a Thameslink-only ticket - it's route: Not Underground off peak day return from London Thameslink.

If you hover over the word 'off-peak' in the results you can see the difference.

There are actually 3 different London - Brighton off-peak day returns listed in the results that are priced at £18.70 - all with timing restriction B1.

From London [Edit: Blackfriars ] route:Any Permitted
From London Terminals route:Thameslink only
From London Thameslink route:Not Underground

 

[Paul Kelly]

Gates are dumb. A ticket with 'London Terminals' is likey to open a gate at any station within the 'London Terminals' range. It would open the gates at Paddington, even though it isn't valid there. Gates cannot work out whether a ticket is valid or not.

I would expect a barrier at Paddington to open for neither a ticket routed "Thameslink Only" nor for one with a destination of Brighton. Are you suggesting it should?

 

[Surreytraveller]

I would expect a barrier at Paddington to open for neither a ticket routed "Thameslink Only" nor for one with a destination of Brighton. Are you suggesting it should?

How would it know that the ticket is not valid from that station? All it is looking for is a ticket with 'Paddington' or 'London Terminals' on it. There is not enough memory on these machines to programme them with every possible valid ticket from that station, and the computer would take so long checking each ticket, that the flow of people through the barrier would be impeded. It would also be a major task to keep the database up to date.
EDIT: The gates obviously also check the date on the ticket as well

 

[swt_passenger]

I would expect a barrier at Paddington to open for neither a ticket routed "Thameslink Only" nor for one with a destination of Brighton. Are you suggesting it should?

They don’t check the destination at the origin as far as I know, unless newer cleverer gates can do it. “London Terminals” tickets are fairly well known to work at any member of that station group...

 

[Paul Kelly]

There is not enough memory on these machines to programme them with every possible valid ticket from that station

I'm not suggesting they be programmed with every possible valid ticket. But surely it's not that hard to program them to reject "Thameslink Only " tickets. There are approx 1,000 different route codes that can be encoded on a ticket. We're talking ONE KILOBYTE of memory. I really can't see how that could possibly be beyond the memory capacity of the barriers, unless they were deployed before approx. 1980.

 

[sheff1]

I'd always assumed that the gates were like a ticket checker on the gate line. If you can get through, I'd say - from an amateur perspective - that's prima facie evidence that you're not travelling invalidly. I'd certainly kick up a fuss if either a person or a machine looked at my ticket and let me through, and I was then hauled up on the train as having done something wrong. Given the complexities of all this, I'd argue that trying to use a ticket is a reasonable way of checking whether you can. If either a human or a machine lets you through, then...

Gates are like a human checker on the gateline. Both will sometimes let you through with an invalid ticket (and sometimes prevent access with a valid ticket).
There have been plenty of threads where people have been let through with invalid tickets and then encountered problems on board.

Given the complexities of all this, I'd argue that trying to use a ticket is a reasonable way of checking whether you can.

In a sane world that would indeed be reasonable but, again, there have been threads where people have been given Penalty Fares or threatened with prosecution when presenting an invalid ticket in a naive attempt to check whether it was valid.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I would expect a barrier at Paddington to open for neither a ticket routed "Thameslink Only" nor for one with a destination of Brighton. Are you suggesting it should?

It will do. They are dumb. They don't make any attempt to check things like routes in that much detail, it's too complicated to do quickly enough. It's just based on origins and destinations so far as I know.

Though I'd be interested to know how the New St ones are programmed with the hugely complex situation there. I've never had one rejected that I can recall, but I did try some silly examples in the barriers to see if they'd open for anything at all[1], and they don't.

[1] I can't recall if I actually bought a single from Forsinard to Altnabreac to do it or not, though.

 

[Wallsendmag]

I feel like I'm repeating myself but I saw someone else fail to pay by card on the machine, and the same issue happened with my father. Were all three cards already damaged?

It will do. They are dumb. They don't make any attempt to check things like routes in that much detail, it's too complicated to do quickly enough. It's just based on origins and destinations so far as I know.

Though I'd be interested to know how the New St ones are programmed with the hugely complex situation there. I've never had one rejected that I can recall, but I did try some silly examples in the barriers to see if they'd open for anything at all[1], and they don't.

[1] I can't recall if I actually bought a single from Forsinard to Altnabreac to do it or not, though.

Who told you that? I'm not 100% with Cubic gates but S&B check date origin, destination, ticket type and route as well as status.

 

[Haywain]

They don’t check the destination at the origin as far as I know, unless newer cleverer gates can do it. “London Terminals” tickets are fairly well known to work at any member of that station group...

They do, unless the gating logic is particularly poor. The particular difficulty at Thameslink core stations is that it isn't possible to define which origin and destination combinations are not valid, only which destinations are valid for (one of) a group of origin station codes. The logic doesn't have the ability to define different groups of destinations for each London 'origin'.

 

[AlbertBeale]

The price is the same but the ticket NRE offers for the 10:14 departure ( changing onto Southern at East Croydon ) isn't a Thameslink-only ticket - it's route: Not Underground off peak day return from London Thameslink.

If you hover over the word 'off-peak' in the results you can see the difference.

There are actually 3 different London - Brighton off-peak day returns listed in the results that are priced at £18.70 - all with timing restriction B1.

From London Terminals route:Any Permitted
From London Terminals route:Thameslink only
From London Thameslink route:Not Underground

Hi - thanks for this. Looking at what it shows when hovering over the "off-peak" does indeed give "Not Underground" or "T/L Only" for the off-peak ones - but I can only find "Any Permitted" shown for the Anytime ones. "Not Underground" on an off-peak is fine in terms of giving flexibility ... except that I can't see from hovering on anything where it says the origin. Given that I was specifying Blackfriars - and all these tickets are in that context - what's the evidence that any less restrictive ticket (ie anything that isn't T/L route only) would have London Terminals as the origin. Indeed, the only ticket you mention here which is both from London Terminals and has no route restrictions is (as far as I can see) an anytime ticket, not an off-peak.

So it does seem that the cheaper type of off-peak ticket (as opposed to the less cheap off-peak) is either restricted to using a T/L terminal, or restricted to using T/L trains (which - irrespective of ticket gates, I'm now told - effectively means using a T/L terminal anyway). The one thing which seems better than I thought in the first place is that there really are valid cheaper off-peak tickets [ie ones from T/L terminals] which you can use to switch to Southern trains en route - because they say Not Underground rather than Thameslink Only. (Though how - at a machine or ticket office - do you get a cheaper type of off-peak that doesn't specify T/L route?)

 

[JB_B]

... I can't see from hovering on anything where it says the origin...

I think that's correct - I don't think NRE makes the origin explicit. I used brfares.com to find all fares from Blackfriars to Brighton -

http://www.brfares.com/#!fares?orig=BFR&dest=BTN

- and then matched on price, ticket-type and route to work out what must be the origin for the different routes shown by NRE.

It's possible that a retail site that NRE hands over to might make the origin clear but given this is so often broken - 'Oh No! We are having trouble processing your request' - I haven't checked.

...So it does seem that the cheaper type of off-peak ticket (as opposed to the less cheap off-peak) is either restricted to using a T/L terminal, or restricted to using T/L trains (which - irrespective of ticket gates, I'm now told - effectively means using a T/L terminal anyway)...

Yes - I think that's right - there was an error in my earlier post - the other £18.70 off peak return fare with route:Any Permitted has origin London Blackfriars.

 

[AlbertBeale]

Many thanks for everyone's patience and info (especially JB_B) - though I won't pretend that I'm not still a bit confused.

One last question... given that there are the lower price CDR with origin restriction (ie T/L) but no route restriction (except Not Underground), allowing journeys from Blackfriars or London Bridge that involve a mix of operators, how flexible is the routing allowed at the London end.

For example, returning from Brighton to London on a ticket "to T/L", but not tied to T/L trains, is it possible, eg, to use Southern to Clapham Junction, then go to Waterloo to connect from Waterloo East to London Bridge? Is it still the case the you can wiggle around in South London on any convenient connection to reach the terminal you want?