diesel vs. electricity

[TheWalrus]

How much does diesel cost (say per mile) against the cost to power an electric carriage per mile?

Also I read electric trains require less maintenance than diesel trains, so how is this reflected in running costs?

And finally track access costs. How does the cost between a diesel and electric car differ?

Cheers,

Ryan

 

[gordonthemoron]

presumably electric trains save a bit on 'maintenance' by not having to be refuelled?

 

[TheWalrus]

presumably electric trains save a bit on 'maintenance' by not having to be refuelled?

Saves trips to the depot I suppose...

 

[route:oxford]

Also I read electric trains require less maintenance than diesel trains, so how is this reflected in running costs?
Ryan

If you think about it this way generally speaking (with the exception of Diesel-Hydraulic & Diesel-Mechanical) a Diesel train is an electric train with an onboard generator.

The Diesel Engine powers the alternator/generator which then powers the electric traction motors. So the maintenance cost of a Diesel train can be expected to be at the very least the cost of maintaining an electric train with the diesel maintenance costs on top.

Hope that makes sense.

 

[TheWalrus]

If you think about it this way generally speaking (with the exception of Diesel-Hydraulic & Diesel-Mechanical) a Diesel train is an electric train with an onboard generator.

The Diesel Engine powers the alternator/generator which then powers the electric traction motors. So the maintenance cost of a Diesel train can be expected to be at the very least the cost of maintaining an electric train with the diesel maintenance costs on top.

Hope that makes sense.

So basically an electric train is cheaper to maintain? Sorry but it did take a few reads!

 

[moonrakerz]

The Diesel Engine powers the alternator/generator which then powers the electric traction motors. So the maintenance cost of a Diesel train can be expected to be at the very least the cost of maintaining an electric train with the diesel maintenance costs on top.

On the other hand..............

Don't forget the maintenance costs of the "collecting" equipment on the electric train AND the costs of maintaining the OH Lines or the 3rd rail AND the costs of maintaining the sub stations required to feed the system.

Oh yes - and the enormous cost of installing the "electric" infrastructure (only OH I believe is allowed now) in the first place - including raising bridges/lowering track.

 

[Metroland]

Still works out cheaper in the long term, maintenance and fuel costs of electric traction are significantly less. OHL structures are designed for 100 years, and the contact wire for at least 25.

 

[Green Lane]

Still works out cheaper in the long term, maintenance and fuel costs of electric traction are significantly less. OHL structures are designed for 100 years, and the contact wire for at least 25.

I'd also imagine after the 100 years you've still got your raised bridge/lowered track in place, so it should be cheaper (in real terms) to fit the structures the second time around, I'd guess.

I'm all for electrification of routes where makes economic sense. Presumably this means busy "high-density" routes.

From a local perspective it's interesting what the future holds for Merseyrail, probably now complicated by the fact that future expansion of the electrified network (if it ever happens) will use OHLE, whilst underground sections no doubt will remain third rail.

There is one main adavantage to Diesel trains though - it seems to me they are less affected by external factors e.g. when a fire broke out at an electrical substation a few weeks ago, it affected the whole southern section of the WCML for a few hours, causing complete chaos. Wires can also go down. When these things happen, it can paralyse the entire route, it seems a bit of an achilles heel sometimes.

 

[Z12XE]

The other interesting thing is the quoted MPC rates for EMU and DMU.

EMU always seem signifantally higher than equivalent DMU stock

 

[222666]

I take it EMUs are lighter on the tracks?

 

[Train wasp]

Does anyone know how a TOC or loco operator is charged for using an electric loco/unit? Is it done on mileage or a daily charge excluding mileage?



Thanks

 

[Metroland]

Via track access charges

http://www.networkrail.co.uk/browse...Charges Reviews\CP4 Charges&pageid=2893&root=

http://www.networkrail.co.uk/browse...lectricity consumption rates list for cp4.pdf

 

[rail-britain]

Does anyone know how a TOC or loco operator is charged for using an electric loco/unit? Is it done on mileage or a daily charge excluding mileage?

You need to inspect the Network Rail Access Charges Schedule for that
http://www.networkrail.co.uk/browse... Charges Reviews\CP4 Charges&pageid=2893&root
Charges vary on train type, route, and so on

The TOC has to pay the RoSCo for lease to the rolling stock, but most agreements are not available under FOI requests (to the DfT)
However, what you can obtain is what the TOC is paying each year in total

In the short term electric trains are cheaper to operate, but they cost much more to purchase
In the long term diesel (mechanical) trains are expensive
The compromise is a diesel-electric train

Network Rail also charge separately for electricity
However, the track access for electric locos are typically discounted to a fixed rate of about £2 per KGTM

 

[captainbigun]

In the short term electric trains are cheaper to operate, but they cost much more to purchase
In the long term diesel (mechanical) trains are expensive
The compromise is a diesel-electric train

What? Where have you obtained your numbers? Since when have DMUs been cheaper than EMUs?

 

[222666]

Don't forget one major factor here - HOW we [plan to] provide electricity [in the future]. Nuclear or Hydroelectric. Nuclear would have to be a major factor, as much as I hate it.

 

[rail-britain]

What? Where have you obtained your numbers? Since when have DMUs been cheaper than EMUs?

That would be Angel Trains and Porterbrook
Costs are based on a 10 year lease
Units compared were :
Class 314, 322, 156, 158, and 170
These costings were then transferred to a cost per seat per mile

EMUs are the cheap option, however they have a major overhaul at roughly 10 year intervals which is INCREDIBLY expensive (complete switch gear and transformer overhaul)
In the Class 317 units these are also now due, which may affect reliability in due course
Many RoSCos have now put these off in favour of new rolling stock

Whereas a DMU has a more even maintenance regime

As previous, the EMU costs more in terms of capital compared to a DMU

edit :
I have rechecked
4 car EMU 100mph just over £5m
2 x 2 car DMU 100mph just over £6.5m

 

[TheWalrus]

Don't forget one major factor here - HOW we [plan to] provide electricity [in the future]. Nuclear or Hydroelectric. Nuclear would have to be a major factor, as much as I hate it.

Dont know if anyone knows, but you can get these things you step on and produce electricity!

 

[rail-britain]

Dont know if anyone knows, but you can get these things you step on and produce electricity!

Carpets, cow pats?

 

[moonrakerz]

OHL structures are designed for 100 years, and the contact wire for at least 25.

Ummmm ! I lived in Scotland when the WCML electrification was completed in 1974, very impressive - 100mph trains and all that.

What they didn't say at the time was it was done "on the cheap" and that 100mph was the max speed ANY train could travel (on large parts of that route) because of the way the OHL structures were installed. Though I believe the Class 87s were theoretically capable of 110mph.

Since then vast sums have been spent to bring it up to the present standard - where it should have been in the first place !
This was just the last lot of work.

" renewal of overhead lines along 2220 track-km, the erection of 6000 new or replacement structures, and the installation of 415 tunnel supports and 22 new electrical substations."

 

[The_Stig]

That would be Angel Trains and Porterbrook
Costs are based on a 10 year lease
Units compared were :
Class 314, 322, 156, 158, and 170
These costings were then transferred to a cost per seat per mile

EMUs are the cheap option, however they have a major overhaul at roughly 10 year intervals which is INCREDIBLY expensive (complete switch gear and transformer overhaul)
In the Class 317 units these are also now due, which may affect reliability in due course
Many RoSCos have now put these off in favour of new rolling stock

Whereas a DMU has a more even maintenance regime

As previous, the EMU costs more in terms of capital compared to a DMU

edit :
I have rechecked
4 car EMU 100mph just over £5m
2 x 2 car DMU 100mph just over £6.5m

The 334's are ten years old and not having this done yet.

Edit: I just checked, its due at 520,000 miles.

 

[rail-britain]

The 334's are ten years old and not having this done yet.

Edit: I just checked, its due at 520,000 miles.

EMUs can do anything up to 100,000 miles a year
I don't have figures specific to the Class 334 but a typical interurban EMU can cover about 80,000 miles a year
I could probably find out what typical mileage they are currently sitting on; I know the Class 318 units had this overhaul a few years ago

 

[Metroland]

Don't forget one major factor here - HOW we [plan to] provide electricity [in the future]. Nuclear or Hydroelectric. Nuclear would have to be a major factor, as much as I hate it.

Wind, Biomass, some Nuclear (although the current government won't subsidise it), clean coal (if the technology is ever perfected), some gas for the foreseeable future.

I have, however, always disputed in the future we could match the current generating capacity without some enormous technical breakthrough like Nuclear fussion, let alone add new capacity for transport fuels (bar public transport), then there is home heating which is very gas based in the UK.

round 1 and 2 offshore wind farms shown here

http://www.thecrownestate.co.uk/round_1_2_windfarm_sites.pdf


round three offshore here

http://www.thecrownestate.co.uk/our...wind_energy/round3/70-interactive-maps-r3.htm

 

[TGV]

Pound for pound, an EMU will out perform an equivalent DMU every time. Acceleration, braking, emissions (even taking into account the power generation) and maintenance. Plus the added bonus of being quieter for passengers and lineside residents too.

They are GENERALLY more reliable too. Don't start arguing specifics - you know what I mean. Not all reliabilty is based on figures you can get on the internet - walk into a depot and you'll see what I mean. Preventative maintenance to keep things running smoothly. In the back of my memory I read some time that the most reliable train ever ran on UK rails was one of the old 3rd rail slam-door things. I'm sure someone here will know what one.

It's the extra work involved in providing power to electric traction that complicates the situation.

3rd rail is a relic of the southern region. It's good because no loading gauge alterations were needed to bridges etc, but it's limited in terms of top speed, requires more feeder stations and suffers more in adverse weather than overheads. I only recently discovered that the UK is the world record speed holder for 3rd rail traction - again, some type of EMU that I don't know (I'm not a spotter... not so good with my class numbers!) managed over 110mph between Basingstoke and Farnborough.

Overheads in the UK are hit and miss. The ECML north of Newcastle (and in general) is well known for having issues. I doubt there's much of it that's seen 25 years' use! Then there's HS1 which is done to the highest standards and has so far proven very reliable. You get what you pay for.

 

[Ivo]

The Class 442 "Wessex Electric", achieving a speed of 108mph on April 11 1988 (the day my sister's ex was born ), is the one you refer to.

 

[Kingfisher200262]

Via track access charges

http://www.networkrail.co.uk/browse...Charges Reviews\CP4 Charges&pageid=2893&root=

http://www.networkrail.co.uk/browse...lectricity consumption rates list for cp4.pdf

I believe that under an EU diktat, all electric trains will have usage meters fitted at some point.

 

[swt_passenger]

I believe that under an EU diktat, all electric trains will have usage meters fitted at some point.

Interesting that a recent report about Virgin's plans for Pendolino metering suggest that only a few of the trains will have actual independent metering, what they hope to do is use them to provide the info necessary to calibrate the existing Train Management System sensors on the rest of the fleet, ie the normal TMS records of voltage and current drawn will be used to calculate the energy usage as well.

For anyone interested in the details this report is worth a read, includes a fair amount of technical stuff and various block diagrams of the 9 car Pendolino traction system I hadn't seen before...

http://www.networkrail.co.uk/browse... 2010/vt-ec4t-390 technical file issue 1b.pdf

 

[Drsatan]

3rd rail is a relic of the southern region. It's good because no loading gauge alterations were needed to bridges etc, but it's limited in terms of top speed, requires more feeder stations and suffers more in adverse weather than overheads. I only recently discovered that the UK is the world record speed holder for 3rd rail traction - again, some type of EMU that I don't know (I'm not a spotter... not so good with my class numbers!) managed over 110mph between Basingstoke and Farnborough.

I'm in favour of electrification. EMUs and electric locos accelerate more quickly, don't emit any CO2, and create less noise. Besides don't forget the 'Sparks effect'. When a route was electrified in Big Four and BR days and the train frequency was increased more passengers used the trains. This effect was documented after the electrification of the Brighton Main Line in 1933

The LBSCR did experiment with overhead electrification but in the end decided in favour of 3rd rail electrification as it was cheaper to install. The SR after the electrification of the BML decided that 3rd rail was the way forward.

In response to your question, the 4CIGs could achieve over 100,000 MPC , whereas the 142s from what I've read are stuck at 2,000 MPC (surprising given that the 142s/143s are only slightly more technologically advanced - namely automatic doors)

 

[mickey]

I'm in favour of electrification. EMUs and electric locos accelerate more quickly, don't emit any CO2, and create less noise.

I don't disagree with the sentiment of your post, but this is contentious, isn't it? After all, the electricity comes from somewhere, and coal/gas power stations are huge emitters of CO2 aren't they?

 

[Drsatan]

I don't disagree with the sentiment of your post, but this is contentious, isn't it? After all, the electricity comes from somewhere, and coal/gas power stations are huge emitters of CO2 aren't they?

But remember, nuclear power stations, hydroelectric power stations and wind turbines do not emit CO2.

 

[Trog]

The Class 442 "Wessex Electric", achieving a speed of 108mph on April 11 1988 (the day my sister's ex was born ), is the one you refer to.

I remember being told of 501 unit on test after an overhaul doing over 80MPH on the Euston - Watford DC line near Carpenders Park. I bet that was a lively ride.