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Diesel vs Electric

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brad465

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Out of the two types of trains, electric trains in my opinion are much better, because:

they make less noise
less pollutive
accelerate faster
not as heavy
cheaper to run
more reliable

The only advantage i can think of that a diesel has, is the ability to travel on non-electrified routes.
 
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mumrar

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Out of the two types of trains, electric trains in my opinion are much better, because:

they make less noise
less pollutive
accelerate faster
not as heavy
cheaper to run
more reliable

The only advantage i can think of that a diesel has, is the ability to travel on non-electrified routes.

I agree with what you say, which seems like a statement more than a question. Were you expecting any feedback/discussion? Also, this should be in Traction & Rolling Stock, not infrastructure I think.
 

CarterUSM

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Out of the two types of trains, electric trains in my opinion are much better, because:

they make less noise
less pollutive
accelerate faster
not as heavy
cheaper to run
more reliable

The only advantage i can think of that a diesel has, is the ability to travel on non-electrified routes.

6-1 to electric!!!:D
 

DaveNewcastle

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One of the greatest benefits in electric traction is the independance from any particular fuel source. World supply and prices for differing fuels can swing up and down but as long as the country has power generating plants using a variety of fuels/sources, then the electric grid can keep running on the most economically viable fuel, and the trains will take advantage of that.
Other benefits include the removal of the need to re-fuel a loco or train set, the need to store fuel in depots, to transport fuel to depots and to carry tanks of the stuff around all day long.
Also, this should be in Traction & Rolling Stock, not infrastructure I think.
You're quite right, and its been discussed many times before in other threads, but that very infrastructure may be the biggest down side to electric traction.
Massive investment is required to construct and instal that infrastructure: its very, very expensive to build, and once built, is expensive to maintain. In some exposed areas it suffers badly from severe weather, particularly high wind and extremes of temperature (there's even the need to run ghost trains just to minimise ice on the wires in some sub-zero conditions!). There are corrosive locations such as near sea water.
There are hazardous locations such as level crossings, freight and maintenance depots, stations and bridges, and injuries arising from incidents are generally extreme or fatal.

Then there are massive power losses which leak away through that infrastructure to account for, especially in wet conditions. Some estimates have argued that this alone negates any economic benefits on mainlines through rural areas.

And could it ever become effective to do away with all diesel traction? Would the benefit to the national network justify the cost in wiring all the way to Wick?

As I've posted before on this subject, the reduction in polution may be an mistake. The pollutants are just being produced somewhere else, in the power generating plants, and these are never going to be too far away from centres of population. Just because the pollutants aren't being emited by the train doesn't mean they're not being emitted.

Then there's the cost of transporting fuels to power generating stations, and the fuel burned in transporting it there with all the pollutants that produces. This all just adds back some of the environmental impact of electric trains. The overall benefits are rarely as great as they first seem, there's actually a very big economic and environmental impact in electricity production and distribution.

Finally, some people would consider the visual impact of OHLE in many rural settings to be a downside - even the proportion of additional electric power distribution to get the power to the railway would have to be included.

Some more to think about.
 

jopsuk

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The shining example as far as electrification, especially in picturesque landscape, has to be the Swiss railways: 3641 out of 3,652 km (2,262 out of 2,269 mi) of the standard gauge and 1,353 out of 1,383 km (841 out of 859 mi) of the narrow gauge network is electrified.
 

At_traction

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Out of the two types of trains, electric trains in my opinion are much better, because:

they make less noise
less pollutive
accelerate faster
not as heavy
cheaper to run
more reliable

The only advantage i can think of that a diesel has, is the ability to travel on non-electrified routes.

Along with the ability of a diesel locomotive or MU to operate when the electric supply is down due to whatever reason. A (rather) recent and widely publicized example being the recovery of the Chunnel train with diesel locomotion.

I agree with all the points above, but when the going gets tough, an occasional diesel engine can solve many troubles. ;)

The shining example as far as electrification, especially in picturesque landscape, has to be the Swiss railways: 3641 out of 3,652 km (2,262 out of 2,269 mi) of the standard gauge and 1,353 out of 1,383 km (841 out of 859 mi) of the narrow gauge network is electrified.

A distinct advantage - along with such small matters as relative peace for the last century, compared to almost all other major European countries/regions, with Sweden, another major early electrifier, being another exception - is Switzerland's hydro-electric resources harnessable in the mountaineous country. With cheap electricity available, the question of railway electrification is much easier to tackle both economically and politically. The amount of international cargo through-traffic also adds to the utilization rate and thus the profitability of the original infrastructure commitment.
 

Teaboy1

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Anyone who thinks electricity is clean and friendly have obviously never visited a thermal power station !!!
Take a look at Gale Common or Barlow tips in Yorkshire, I'll give you clean energy matey!! Then I shall take you for a walk through the mill bay and coal bunkers at Drax.
Dont get me wrong, we still need big power plant but just because you dont see any emissions does not mean they dont exist elsewhere. Nukes are just as clean but that waste is much smaller but just as toxic/highly concentrated.
Me I advocate LNG powered locos with big spark-ignition engine, could be done if there was a demand, big bunker towed behind would do it no problems.
 

GB

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What makes you say electric stock is more reliable?

While its true that diesel trains are heavier than electric trains, the extra weight can add traction during poor railhead conditions.

Both have their pros and cons...
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
If there were more diesel advantages I knew of, I would have added them :idea:


Not constrained by wires
Not affected by ice on the OHLE
Not affected by minor OHL defects
Not affected by high winds or high heat (speed orders are usually inposed for AC stock during high winds and high heat to prevent damage to the overheads)
Works during OHL power supply problems
Does not overload the power supply if more than a handfull are in a single section
I'd say they could probably haul more aswell
 

jopsuk

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Talk of the pollution from electricity generation versus use on diesel trains is rather more complex than has been discussed so far.

With fossil fuels, you've got various different pollutants to consider.
From a diesel engine, due to the limitations of what can be done in the exhaust system, you will get even with a modern engine a fair amount of particulate matter- mainly unburnt fuel, residual sulphur compounds etc. This is a local pollutant, affecting only places nearby and is much more of a problem from road vehicles. Particulate pollution causing respiritory problems (astham etc) and can be carcinogenic.
Coal power stations (plus the rare oil and the modern biomass!) do produce particulate during burning, but with all the stations in the UK these days this is almost entirely scrubbed out of the exhaust using various methods, including electrostatic scrubbers in the flue. This does need disposed of however to landfill/reclamation (along with the furnace ash- Lognannet was built partly on reclaimed land made using the waste from Kincardine).

You've also got oxides of nitrogen from all combustive fuel burning (including gas) that are unavoidable due to the high combustion temperatures. Again, these are more readily removed at static power stations.

The one that gets headlines of course is CO2. From a diesel engine, this will be mixed with much more harmful (both locally and as greenhouse gas) CO as well due to incomplete combustion. From a combustion power station, they are able again to deal with the CO in the flue.

Now, whether one or the other sourse produces more CO2 per passenger km is more difficult, and I'll keep out of that area as I don't know enough.

But, of course, electric trains aren't tied to combustion. The Swiss, as said, use their plentiful Hyrdro power- not that hydro is 100% emission free- though emissions are very much "front loaded" for a new scheme. France generates nearly 80% of its electricity from nuclear. Wind, whilst having certain issues (no wind/too much wind), is growing very rapidly as the poster on the wall behind me shows. Tidal/wave will have a part to play. Spain now has some massive Solar power stations- these work well in very sunny locations, and are similar in the generation phase to a coal/gas/biomass/nuclear power station, except using mirrors to focus sunlight on to the boiler.

In fact, with a lot of these, the mention of other countires is perhaps key- really, power is something that needs considered more at European (and perhaps further) levels. There is a need for an intenrational, high efficiany "super grid" to balance out supply and demand, especially with talk of building vast solar farms in the north african desert.

yes, electric trains fail when the wires come down/there's a supply problem. But the motors on electric trains are much, much more reliable (witness the old Southern region practice of using old motors on new classes). They accelerate faster, produce less track wear and are generally more pleasent (if we're talking MUs, which realistically we are) for passengers.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
I'd say they could probably haul more aswell

Class 59 produces 2,460 kW (about the same as Deltic, as it happens). Class 92 is 5,040kW, Class 91 4,540kW.

OK, so then factor in gearing, but electric locos are able to be much more powerful. You notice it in MUs too- modern DMUs have all carriages powered, whilst EMUs have trailer cars (the class 317/320/321/322 have one motor car to three trailers), which contributes to the train being light.
 

90019

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The one that gets headlines of course is CO2. From a diesel engine, this will be mixed with much more harmful (both locally and as greenhouse gas) CO as well due to incomplete combustion. From a combustion power station, they are able again to deal with the CO in the flue.

I find it interesting how, depite being a much worse greenhouse gas than CO2, CH4 is largely ignored as a pollutant, because it's not really publicised as being one.
 

GB

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Class 59 produces 2,460 kW (about the same as Deltic, as it happens). Class 92 is 5,040kW, Class 91 4,540kW.

How does that equate to tractive effort or power at rail?
 

Drsatan

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Excellent post Jopsuk, but I think the 'sparks effect' is important in understanding the appeal for electric traction.

If a route is electrified, it also makes sense to increase the service frequency, refurbish or rebuild a couple of busy stations, and carry out some infrastructure improvements such as resignalling or enhancing the track layout. Doing this prevents a more attractive product to the passenger who is more likely to travel by train as a result.

When the Southern Railway electrified the Brighton Main Line in 1933, the timetable was recast so trains would depart Brighton and London Victoria at the same times past the hour. Along with this, faster electric trains that were easier to keep clean boosted passenger numbers.

Likewise, when the SWML was electrified as far as Bournemouth in 1967, passenger numbers increased.
 

brad465

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Not constrained by wires
Not affected by ice on the OHLE
Not affected by minor OHL defects
Not affected by high winds or high heat (speed orders are usually inposed for AC stock during high winds and high heat to prevent damage to the overheads)
Works during OHL power supply problems
Does not overload the power supply if more than a handfull are in a single section
I'd say they could probably haul more aswell

All true ones looking at it ;)
 

mumrar

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How does that equate to tractive effort or power at rail?

Simple answer, it doesn't. And Class 59s produce 2238kW, being 300HP less than a Deltic. In terms of tractive effort a Class 59 is 573kN, a Class 91's are strangely hard to find a figure for, and for a Class 92 it's 360-400kN. Power output is all about potential top speed (subject to gearing), torque/tractive effort is all about pulling force to get a load moving. If you've ever seen an intermodal start off at Rugby you'll know that Class 92s are an exceptional blend of load hauling and acceleration too.
 
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GB

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...and it is that pulling force that allows a train to haul longer/heavier loads. Once up to speed relative little force/power is needed to maintain it as momentum does most of the work there on.

Class 92's do seem to have an excellent mix of pulling power and acceleration.
 

142094

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I find it interesting how, depite being a much worse greenhouse gas than CO2, CH4 is largely ignored as a pollutant, because it's not really publicised as being one.

One of the most potent greenhouse gases. But again, so is water vapour!
 

jopsuk

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I find it interesting how, depite being a much worse greenhouse gas than CO2, CH4 is largely ignored as a pollutant, because it's not really publicised as being one.

Aye, but the volume of methane released due to human action (rotting vegetation, waste dumps and from animal farming- mainly farting cows!), is miniscule compared the volume of carbon dioxide- so whilst molecule for molecule CH4 is worse than CO2, CO2 is a bigger problem- but also one that is easier to deal with. One of the biggest problems with mega-dams (such as the Three Gorges) is methane released from anaerobic decomposition of vegetable matter in the flooded areas.
 

DaveNewcastle

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Coal power stations (plus the rare oil and the modern biomass!) do produce particulate during burning, but with all the stations in the UK these days this is almost entirely scrubbed out of the exhaust using various methods, including electrostatic scrubbers in the flue. This does need disposed of however to landfill/reclamation (along with the furnace ash- Lognannet was built partly on reclaimed land made using the waste from Kincardine).

You've also got oxides of nitrogen from all combustive fuel burning (including gas) that are unavoidable due to the high combustion temperatures. Again, these are more readily removed at static power stations.
Without wanting to prolong this debate by delving into the arcane world of how many ways the one question can be analysed, I did just want to add the qualifier on "clean" coal-powered generating plants, which is in respect of the source-to-supply chain of coal.
Most of our coal is imported, and it is produced in less environmentally concerned nations than ours, is transported to docks using dirty diesel, is shipped across seas using dirty diesel, is unloaded in the UK and carried by rail using slightly cleaner diesel, and then, and only then, do the claims of "cleanliness" in burning the coal begin. Shouldn't we have been concerned about the pollution arising from the fuel's production and distribution?

However we analyse it, its a complex area. I've seen analysts try to include factors that we wouldn't even dream of (such as the pollution resulting from the admin staff's daily commute to their foreign office where that office is concerned with supplying fuel to the UK!)

One of the biggest problems with mega-dams (such as the Three Gorges) is methane released from anaerobic decomposition of vegetable matter in the flooded areas.
Now I've leaned something new. Thanks!
 

mumrar

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The maximum power at rail is 4700kW, if that helps your calculation
Not really, as mentioned before this is the power output, and things such as adhesion, gearing etc all have a bearing on the tractive effort. As an example A Class 55 has power of 3300HP versus the 3100HP of a Class 60. Tractive effort for the Class 55 is 50,000lb and the Class 60 is 106,500lb, over double.
 

142094

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Aye, but the volume of methane released due to human action (rotting vegetation, waste dumps and from animal farming- mainly farting cows!), is miniscule compared the volume of carbon dioxide- so whilst molecule for molecule CH4 is worse than CO2, CO2 is a bigger problem- but also one that is easier to deal with. One of the biggest problems with mega-dams (such as the Three Gorges) is methane released from anaerobic decomposition of vegetable matter in the flooded areas.

However, in the lifetime of the dam, the emissions negated by the use of HEP should greatly outweigh the emissions created due to construction etc. That is one of the main problems with sustainable sources, the fact that construction still produces a great deal of emissions and a long timeframe before it actually counts against CO2 and other gases.
 

LE Greys

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I find it interesting how, depite being a much worse greenhouse gas than CO2, CH4 is largely ignored as a pollutant, because it's not really publicised as being one.

The methane problem is fairly easy to avoid. Landfill sites are a major source of it, but it is possible to tap them and either burn it off (possibly in a mini power station) or feed it into the local gas supply. Even sewage works can contribute (interesting thought). It does not do much, but I suppose every little helps.

However, in the lifetime of the dam, the emissions negated by the use of HEP should greatly outweigh the emissions created due to construction etc. That is one of the main problems with sustainable sources, the fact that construction still produces a great deal of emissions and a long timeframe before it actually counts against CO2 and other gases.

As I understand it, a lot of dams pump water uphill during times of low power demand, increasing the potential energy stored behind it. I have to wonder where the energy for that comes from.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Finally, on diesel vs electric, it's horses for courses. Electric haulage is much more effective in high traffic areas, especially suburban or express passenger services. Diesel suits low traffic areas, rural branch lines and freight.
 

90019

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As I understand it, a lot of dams pump water uphill during times of low power demand, increasing the potential energy stored behind it. I have to wonder where the energy for that comes from.

I'm not aware of that many doing that, but I know that Cruachan Power Station pumps water into a reservoir above from Loch Awe at night.
IIRC, they always have one of the 4 turbines pumping water into Cruachan Reservoir when the others are being used as generators. Haven't been there for years so not completely certain about that.
 

captainbigun

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TE for a 91 is low, but it's geared for 140mph operation. There's vastly more power available in an AC loco over a diesel. A 92 will outhaul any diesel on any load in this country.

66s are reliable but their performance is awful, they crawl over the northern hills with any decent load on. Lots of TE but no power beyond that. A 92 however has both.
 

jopsuk

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As I understand it, a lot of dams pump water uphill during times of low power demand, increasing the potential energy stored behind it. I have to wonder where the energy for that comes from.
Simple. You can't completely shut off coal and nuclear plants- not without very lengthy restart procedures. They have to keep running. So it's actually possible for excess power to be produced, especially when almost everyone is in bed. If just the thermal isn't enough, then wind and non pumped-storage stations can top up the grid to allow the pump storage ones to top up, using electricity that is pretty much free. Think of pump-storage as being like big, wet, batteries- they smooth out imbalance between generation and demand. They can be especially useful (there's some in Wales, and a couple more beside Cruachan in Scotland I'm pretty sure) at times such as the end of Eastenders (when lots of kettles go on- no joke) as they spin up very quickly, whilst the thermal stations take longer to respond.
 
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