Diesel Under The Wires?

[imagination]

Let's make all trains on the GWML be hauled by an electric for the first little stretch of their journey because it has wires!

Oh wait...

 

[DarloRich]

IEP won’t happen - at least not in the form suggested at outset.

I had a radical proposal for IEP which got me into trouble at work. I suggested we go to Derby, break out the HST plans, tart them up for 21st century and build some more on the basis that a) they have been going for 30 plus years so the original design must have some good points, b) people like them, c) we know how to build and maintain them d) it will be cheaper than building from scratch e) we could make an electric version to!.

Stony silence! If looks could kill!

 

[Zoe]

I had a radical proposal for IEP which got me into trouble at work. I suggested we go to Derby, break out the HST plans, tart them up for 21st century and build some more on the basis that a) they have been going for 30 plus years so the original design must have some good points, b) people like them, c) we know how to build and maintain them d) it will be cheaper than building from scratch e) we could make an electric version to!.

That's too close to the loco and stock concept though. Train builders are simply not prepared to build to offer that these days.

 

[87015]

That's too close to the loco and stock concept though. Train builders are simply not prepared to build to offer that these days.

Really? Who do those crafty foreigners get to build engines and carriages?

 

[Zoe]

Really? Who do those crafty foreigners get to build engines and carriages?

I was informed that the reason we got stuck with the Voyagers was for the reason above when the issue was discussed at length elsewhere.

 

[Malderon]

A little bit off topic, but this has reminded me, quite often getting off my train in the morning I see a Turbostar at East Croydon - running err... over the third rail. Over the past week or so seen one heading North on platform 3 and one heading South on platform 6, cant remember the exact times but it would have been around 8-8:30 am I suppose.

Perhaps someone knows the route this train is travelling or whether its just running as breakdown cover or stock shortage or something.

It's horrible though! When you rarely venture outside the Southern region to have this unbeleivable noise and horrible fumes choking up the platform, not pleasant at all. Happy I live in an electified area even if it is only third rail!

 

[Royston Vasey]

It is annoying that VAST sums of money are spent on putting the wires up and then not using them. However, the main problem, as touched on above, is the lack of suitable stock.

Is it not more annoying from your perspective that vast sums of money haven't been spent on putting more wires up? There are very few routes, in the grand scheme of things, where diesel is used on 100% electric routes.

In relation to the network we have, what stock are we really short of? A few Pendolinos possibly, for Glasgow to Birmingham. Other than that, nearly new or recently engineered diesels are a much lower cost option and are necessary anyway due to gaps in the wires.

We are stuck with the current arrangements until someone makes a dual power source Voyager, some new (decent!) EMU stock is ordered, more 390s appear (more than the 4 already on order) or loco and stock makes a comes back. None is on the cards right now for various issues such as HF timetables but mainly due to funding issues.

I agree and disagree!

Dual power "EDMUs" would be very very heavy and probably less efficient than the equivalent diesel! You're right we need more EMUs.

I would say that what would change the status quo overall, is a few short stretches of electrification (Manchester to Preston, Crewe to Holyhead, York to Leeds etc) and a few new off the shelf EMUs, to run on the newly enabled routes and free up DMUs for elsewhere. EMUs are fairly easy to acquire given that Bombardier/Siemens/Alstom have production lines open and ready to make more 37X/380/390 units, quickly and cheaply.

Yes it would be nice to do the GWML, MML and large stretches of the Midlands XC network, but its a big cost for a marginal reward while the stock used thereupon is still servicable (renewed HSTs, 22Xs, 170s). I don't want to seem negative or stuck in the past, but diesels aren't that inefficient or dirty any more and electrification is a very major, expensive and disruptive undertaking. I don't want to pay it in my fares or taxes, do others?

It is such a shame that the political will to do the small but significant additions of wires and/or EMU stock, other than the 4 Pendolinos, doesn't seem to have been there for some time. This scale is where the cost/benefit calculations make most sense.

 

[MCR247]

Thats because turbos run to Uckfield

 

[starrymarkb]

Really? Who do those crafty foreigners get to build engines and carriages?

Are you meaning OBB's Railjets? That was more a case of OBB having overordered Tauruses and using the stored locomotives with new stock was cheaper then ordering units.

Wouldn't work over here because we don't have many 125mph+ locomotives spare and certainly no 140mph ones like OBB
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

A little bit off topic, but this has reminded me, quite often getting off my train in the morning I see a Turbostar at East Croydon - running err... over the third rail. Over the past week or so seen one heading North on platform 3 and one heading South on platform 6, cant remember the exact times but it would have been around 8-8:30 am I suppose.

Perhaps someone knows the route this train is travelling or whether its just running as breakdown cover or stock shortage or something.

London Bridge to Uckfield - the Uckfield route is diesel only

 

[Oswyntail]

... But who would order them and who would pay for them (and how many would be needed)? ...

ROSCOs - it's what they are there for.

 

[87015]

Are you meaning OBB's Railjets? That was more a case of OBB having overordered Tauruses and using the stored locomotives with new stock was cheaper then ordering units.

Wouldn't work over here because we don't have many 125mph+ locomotives spare and certainly no 140mph ones like OBB

Belgium has got new-ish Bombardier stuff, very nice it is too, Denmark has got shiny coaches that are this century, CAF stock in Ireland (not so good!) Even Siemens are in on the act with there Viaggio job but I've no idea what thats like in reality. A quick look at manufacturers websites and they still seem to be offering engines and coaches - no statements that "we no longer build engines and coaches"!

Not sure what the relevance of 125+mph locos is, we have plenty of underworked or stored reasonably modern locos which might need a bit of money splashing on them or if you want to make a proper job of it order new Siemens/Bombardier loco platforms which, warning, joined up railway thinking, could be used almost 24/7 on overnight sleeper/freight/parcels traffic...

 

[Failed Unit]

I was informed that the reason we got stuck with the Voyagers was for the reason above when the issue was discussed at length elsewhere.

Rolling stock builders will build whatever is asked of them. If I placed on OJEU a tender for 1000 coaches I can assure you the usual suspects will respond. You won't get no bids because it is not a multiple unit!

 

[Zoe]

Rolling stock builders will build whatever is asked of them. If I placed on OJEU a tender for 1000 coaches I can assure you the usual suspects will respond. You won't get no bids because it is not a multiple unit!

However there isn't an "off the shelf" loco and stock option is there? I seem to remember Virgin went to Bombardier and said something like we want a train that is xxxxx and the Voyager is what they were offered.

 

[TGV]

On topic - If the ultimate destination is not electrified, then at this point in time, I don't see any problem running diesels under wires. It's pretty simple isn't it? In the absence of a practical, passenger friendly alternative, it's just got to be done.

 

[Failed Unit]

However there isn't an "off the shelf" loco and stock option is there? I seem to remember Virgin went to Bombardier and said something like we want a train that is xxxxx and the Voyager is what they were offered.

The voyager was hardly off the shelf was it. It still needed converting to uk loading gauge. I am sure Virgin asked for multiple units!

 

[YorkshireBear]

Not sure what the relevance of 125+mph locos is, we have plenty of underworked or stored reasonably modern locos which might need a bit of money splashing on them or if you want to make a proper job of it order new Siemens/Bombardier loco platforms which, warning, joined up railway thinking, could be used almost 24/7 on overnight sleeper/freight/parcels traffic...

Very good quite clever that it probably is doable and with freight at night would it do any harm that you time crew change overs to be where electric disel boundries are and change locos?

 

[Failed Unit]

Passengers in the day other work at night where have I heard that before? Oh the class 91

 

[Zoe]

Passengers in the day other work at night where have I heard that before? Oh the class 91

We may well have seen it had it not been for sectorisation.

 

[Aictos]

In a ideal world, 91s would be dragged to Inverness and Aberdeen from Edinburgh and then under their own power when the lines to Aberdeen and Inverness get wired up using 67s to do this.

I know HSTs are used on some services for Yorkshire which is a shame as by a few infill schemes or upgrading of existing OHL, they could be managed by fully electric services.

 

[TGV]

The class 91 wouldn't make a great choice as a "night freight" loco for 3 reasons that immediately spring to mind:
1 - It's got loads of power, yes, but a pretty poor tractive effort.
2 - It's electric, so is route limited.
3 - Where and when would they get servicing and maintenance done? If they're on passenger duty in the day and freight duty at night when would they get the chance - and when I spoke to some of the guys at Bounds Green a couple of years back they said that they needed 29 of their 31 sets to make the daily service. It's not like they have locos lying around to spare.

It all sounds good in theory, but I can see why it never took off as a practical idea.

 

[Zoe]

In a ideal world, 91s would be dragged to Inverness and Aberdeen from Edinburgh and then under their own power when the lines to Aberdeen and Inverness get wired up using 67s to do this.

I would have thought it would be better to detach the 91 at Edinburgh rather than drag it.

 

[YorkshireBear]

The class 91 wouldn't make a great choice as a "night freight" loco for 3 reasons that immediately spring to mind:
1 - It's got loads of power, yes, but a pretty poor tractive effort.
2 - It's electric, so is route limited.
3 - Where and when would they get servicing and maintenance done? If they're on passenger duty in the day and freight duty at night when would they get the chance - and when I spoke to some of the guys at Bounds Green a couple of years back they said that they needed 29 of their 31 sets to make the daily service. It's not like they have locos lying around to spare.

It all sounds good in theory, but I can see why it never took off as a practical idea.

1&2 valid points.. 3, dont use all of them at night use half fleet, therefore half can be maintained over night alterante nights weeks or whatever?

 

[Failed Unit]

1&2 valid points.. 3, dont use all of them at night use half fleet, therefore half can be maintained over night alterante nights weeks or whatever?

It is valid even if they put them on the sleepers at night the would have hit the next exam quicker. I think they are too intensively used in the day to make night work possible. The don't get much down time either. By the time you take the coaches to the depot, detach loco, pick up next job and do the same in reverse you won't get much night work done.

 

[Old Timer]

Not sure what the relevance of 125+mph locos is, we have plenty of underworked or stored reasonably modern locos which might need a bit of money splashing on them or if you want to make a proper job of it order new Siemens/Bombardier loco platforms which, warning, joined up railway thinking, could be used almost 24/7 on overnight sleeper/freight/parcels traffic...

I remember in the 1970s and early 80s cases of northbound F/Liners waiting for hours and hours, sometimes days, at Willesden with no forward electric traction.

We were regularly putting a F/Liner BYRAG restriction in place to the GE because we had run out of space at Willesden and had no forward electric traction.

This was at a time when F/Liners almost exclusively ran at night on the basis that we used 86s off passenger work to take them forward.

 

[starrymarkb]

The voyager was hardly off the shelf was it. It still needed converting to uk loading gauge. I am sure Virgin asked for multiple units!

Virgin planned for a mixed fleet, DMUs for short haul, something HST like for longer runs

 

[Zoe]

Virgin planned for a mixed fleet, DMUs for short haul, something HST like for longer runs

But as I said above when it was discussed elsewhere, it seems underfloor engine DMUs were all that were offered by the train builders at the time.

 

[YorkshireRider]

It is valid even if they put them on the sleepers at night the would have hit the next exam quicker. I think they are too intensively used in the day to make night work possible. The don't get much down time either. By the time you take the coaches to the depot, detach loco, pick up next job and do the same in reverse you won't get much night work done.

Yes indeed, it just would not be practical, the 91s are only in the depot for anywhere between 4 and 7 hours before there back out for the morning workings

 

[Aictos]

I would have thought it would be better to detach the 91 at Edinburgh rather than drag it.

Well yes, I suggested just dragging the 91 DIT with it's Mk4 set as it would be easier then detaching the 91 at Edinburgh although Scotrail seem to do okay attaching and detaching locos for the Highland Sleeper at Edinburgh but that might have something to do with the times it happens.

It looks like the 67 used on the Aberdeen drags could in theory run round provided platforms 6 or 7 are used however Inverness is something else, is it possible for a loco based there to drag the set clear to release the 67?

 

[Failed Unit]

But as I said above when it was discussed elsewhere, it seems underfloor engine DMUs were all that were offered by the train builders at the time.

No that is not true. Virgin changed it's mind. It is a common fact the underfloor engines work best on short trains and loco's and coaches on longer diesel fleets. The reason virgin were only offered underfloor engines is that is what the asked for! Simple! If the wanted hauled stock the would have kept the HSTs.

 

[YorkshireBear]

heard bombardier warned virgin they were not designed for what they were intended for....