Diesel fumes

[j0hn0]

Hello

When it's warm, we open the windows on the trains on which it is possible. When passing through a tunnel, or another unit, the noise is deafening.

However, this is not the crux of my whinge today, I wonder why in an age when we aren't allowed to smoke anywhere and even phone digital signals are being labelled as carcinogenic, are we still subjected to huge clouds of diesel fumes either whilst going through tunnels or sitting in stations??

Can I sue the TOC's/Network rail for subjecting me to potentially life-threatening fumes in the same way that non-smokers do the same to smokers?

has anyone complained about this before?

cheers
D

 

[Masbroughlad]

Just hold your breath.

 

[j0hn0]

Just hold your breath.

that's what I tell people who complain about smoking

then they get the authorities involved, is cigarette smoke really more dangerous/cancerous than diesel fumes?

 

[valenta]

that's what I tell people who complain about smoking

then they get the authorities involved, is cigarette smoke really more dangerous/cancerous than diesel fumes?

I guess we'll just have to wait another millenium until the rail lines are electrified!

 

[SS4]

that's what I tell people who complain about smoking

then they get the authorities involved, is cigarette smoke really more dangerous/cancerous than diesel fumes?

IMO they are because diesel fumes are largely CO2 and H2O (both odourless). Of course there are some contaminants in there yet nothing like you'd get in cigarette smoke.

As for cancer what doesn't cause cancer these days?

 

[jopsuk]

the concentration of the diesel fumes will be far, far lower than the concentration of smoke from cigarettes could potentially be.

As to the relative carcinogenity of the two, I think tobacco smoke may well be nastier. Genuinely.

 

[Peter Mugridge]

When the 158s were new I was on one that held in the tunnel approaching Glasgow Queen Street; the inside of the carriage was very quickly literally a fog from the diesel fumes being sucked in by the air conditioning - you could hardly see the far end of the carriage!

I complained about that to BR with the suggestion that the a/c should be shut off when held in that tunnel, and the response was that it could not be done as it was there "to improve the environment inside the carriage".:roll:

 

[AlterEgo]

Is this for real? Surely not.

 

[WestCoast]

Can I sue the TOC's/Network rail for subjecting me to potentially life-threatening fumes in the same way that non-smokers do the same to smokers?

I think you mean that smokers are exposing potentially life-threatening fumes to non-smokers. Diesel fumes are necessity until electricity takes over fully, tobacco smoke is not.

Tobacco smoke in enclosed spaces like railway carriages are no fun whatsoever for non-smokers.

 

[OMGitsDAVE]

Really? How pathetic. Smoking is far more harmful than diesel engine fumes are when compared. Its a personal thing to many people, as smoke is publicised much worse and therefore is perceived as much worse by the general public, but the high concentration of the smoke is much worse than from a diesel engine, as said above.

Using a diesel train is a choice, walking through smoke is not -it's pretty much anywhere!

 

[asylumxl]

If it's on your home line,neither the Elstree or Belsize tunnels are that long, you could definetly hold your breath.

Personally I'm not a fan of the smell of diesel. On Sunday when EMT services started from Luton, the amount of Diesel in the air was insane.

 

[j0hn0]

If it's on your home line,neither the Elstree or Belsize tunnels are that long, you could definetly hold your breath.

Personally I'm not a fan of the smell of diesel. On Sunday when EMT services started from Luton, the amount of Diesel in the air was insane.

It depends if I am on a stopper, its far worse if you are going slower.

I find the smell of diesel repulsive and seeing as I am subjected to it every day, and not to passive smoke, I have started to think of the impacts.

--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I guess we'll just have to wait another millenium until the rail lines are electrified!

I suppose one could argue that seeing as there is OHLE present already, there is no excuse to not try and reduce emissions.

Get those 222 pantograph coaches on sharpish!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

IMO they are because diesel fumes are largely CO2 and H2O (both odourless). Of course there are some contaminants in there yet nothing like you'd get in cigarette smoke.

As for cancer what doesn't cause cancer these days?

I guess it's whatever makes the smokey ones smokey, the actual diesel itself wouldn't be too bad I suppose.

 

[scotsman]

17.5O2 + C12H34 -> 8CO2 + 2CO + 17H2O + C2

There you go, hopefully a fairly representative equation of the combustion of diesel fuel in a train - the nasty smell is actually from unburnt Carbon atoms stuck together I think

strange6 - is this any good?

 

[Spaceflower]

I think if you live in an urban area, complaining about diesel fumes from trains is like complaining about Derek Bird speeding.

 

[Peter Mugridge]

Is this for real? Surely not.

I can assure you that did indeed happen - I might even still have the reply from BR filed away somewhere!

 

[OxtedL]

17.5O2 + C12H34 -> 8CO2 + 2CO + 17H2O + C2

There you go, hopefully a fairly representative equation of the combustion of diesel fuel in a train - the nasty smell is actually from unburnt Carbon atoms stuck together I think

strange6 - is this any good?

I'll wait for someone more qualified than I to confirm it, but that looks...errr... Is there such thing as C12H34? I thought when saturated C12 could only go as high as H26? Am I losing it?

Incomplete combustion can happen in many different ways (not helped by the ridiculous number of different alkanes etc. in diesel), so for instance I think C12H26 + 11.5O2 → 10CO + 2C + 13H2O is perhaps better...? Regardless, the C is one of the bits that smells, and the CO is what kills you.

 

[9K43]

Try a 12 hour shift in Brockholes Tunnel on the Penistone Line with a clapped out 31 spewing its foul smoke at you for half a day.
Then they came and put parafin heaters on the foot plate to keep us warm.
If one fume did not get you the other fumes would, including BO from smelly bob., tobbaco smoke from a pipe/cigar/roll up driver called Owen not to mention the smell from the chicken farm accross from the tunnel.
All in a days work .

 

[scotsman]

I'll wait for someone more qualified than I to confirm it, but that looks...errr... Is there such thing as C12H34? I thought when saturated C12 could only go as high as H26? Am I losing it?

Incomplete combustion can happen in many different ways (not helped by the ridiculous number of different alkanes etc. in diesel), so for instance I think C12H26 + 11.5O2 → 10CO + 2C + 13H2O is perhaps better...? Regardless, the C is one of the bits that smells, and the CO is what kills you.

Certainly in petrol it's the branch-chained alkanes and the aromatic compounds that make it more volatile - I imagine that diesel has less of these, but yeah, it doesn't make up for the 34....hmmm

You seem to be assuming that none of the diesel burns completely, though?

 

[OxtedL]

Well, I'm not going to get into this, chemistry was a while ago. I wasn't trying to claim that none of the diesel burnt completely, I was merely offering an alternative equation.
Diesel is complicated, as I understand it. With at least 6 different alkanes (meaning a shedload of structural isomers) it's not exactly going to be straightforward! Then you have the other things you might find - perhaps some sulphur...

Anyhoo...

 

[scotsman]

Well, I'm not going to get into this, chemistry was a while ago. I wasn't trying to claim that none of the diesel burnt completely, I was merely offering an alternative equation.
Diesel is complicated, as I understand it. With at least 6 different alkanes (meaning a shedload of structural isomers) it's not exactly going to be straightforward! Then you have the other things you might find - perhaps some sulphur...

Anyhoo...

You know more than me!

 

[SS4]

SO2 and NOx are more problematic than any of the carbon compounds produced (from an environmental POV)

Apparently, the main component is a 16 chain alkane (perhaps this is where 34 came from?)

C16H34 + 20O2 ---> 9CO2 + 17H2O + 5CO + 2C

In addition there is some of the following:

N2 + O2 ----> 2NO

S8 + 16O2 ----> 8SO2

 

[silentone]

It's rather odd this is the topic of conversation when not a single person appears to have mentioned the fumes we all inhale on a daily basis from traffic on the streets.

These fumes are far more damaging than that you may inhale on a train for a few seconds. Similarly pollen sticks to these fumes and you're more likely to suffer the effects of hayfever.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Are there all that many trains that still have windows that can still be opened on the railways these days? Perhaps I spend far too much time being carried by class 185 units.

Would I be correct in assuming that the trains with window opening facilities are the more elderly units?

 

[sprinterguy]

Are there all that many trains that still have windows that can still be opened on the railways these days? Perhaps I spend far too much time being carried by class 185 units.

Would I be correct in assuming that the trains with window opening facilities are the more elderly units?

Not just the older units: The 376s have hopper ventilators as do Scotlands' 334s, and the 378s have a smattering of them as well, although they are EMUs so of course diesel fumes aren't an issue at all. The newest DMU with opening windows I can think of are the Networker Turbo 165s, but yes generally it's the older seventies and eighties units (Pacers and Sprinter classes up to 156) that have opening windows.

 

[ainsworth74]

but yes generally it's the older seventies and eighties units (Pacers and Sprinter classes up to 156) that have opening windows.

Not quite, 158s (and I assume therefore 159s) also have a few opening windows (3-4 per vehicle I think) but these can only be opened by the guard using their T-key. It's a handy feature when the AC fails in high summer and I wonder why more units don't have this as a backup.

 

[Crimson_Quiff]

Blimey, if I could sue for the amount of diesel fumes inhaled - I'd be rich!

 

[sprinterguy]

Not quite, 158s (and I assume therefore 159s) also have a few opening windows (3-4 per vehicle I think) but these can only be opened by the guard using their T-key. It's a handy feature when the AC fails in high summer and I wonder why more units don't have this as a backup.

I discounted the 158s and 159s because the windows (four per carriage) are only able to be opened by the guard, and this is only done when the aircon is knackered. Looking at Peter Mugridges’ story, the air con on the 158s causes its’ own complications when it comes to diesel fumes within the train!

 

[scotsman]

Aircon on ScotRail 158s has been disabled because they use CFCs

 

[ainsworth74]

I discounted the 158s and 159s because the windows (four per carriage) are only able to be opened by the guard, and this is only done when the aircon is knackered.

Ahh fair enough then!

Yes Peter's story actually reminds of the current situation with Voyagers and Pendolinos where the AC intakes are next the retention tanks so actually suck the smells into the train. Who thought that was a good idea I will never know :roll:

Aircon on ScotRail 158s has been disabled because they use CFCs

Has it not been refurbed by now? I know that 158s had it disabled for a while but I was under the impression that all the AC units had been replaced with modern non-CFC based units. Certainly all of the Northern Rail 158s I've been on have had working AC (it's quite an experience getting off of an overcrowded 142 in summer and then straight onto a air conditioned 158).

 

[scotsman]

Ahh fair enough then!

Yes Peter's story actually reminds of the current situation with Voyagers and Pendolinos where the AC intakes are next the retention tanks so actually suck the smells into the train. Who thought that was a good idea I will never know :roll:



Has it not been refurbed by now? I know that 158s had it disabled for a while but I was under the impression that all the AC units had been replaced with modern non-CFC based units. Certainly all of the Northern Rail 158s I've been on have had working AC (it's quite an experience getting off of an overcrowded 142 in summer and then straight onto a air conditioned 158).

No, you roast to death on ScR 158s in Summer