Diesel and electric working together???

[Phoenix]

Been thinking about this but I don't have a clue.
basically can a diesel loco work with an electric loco (with a pantograph) on the same train at the same time as you would with say two 86's or two 20's????

 

[matt]

I doubt they can work in multi but there they could work together if both locos had a separate driver.

 

[gordonthemoron]

What about in the early days of ECML electrification when the HSTs had a 91 or 89 on one end and an HST powercar on the other?

 

[matt]

I think they may have worked in multiple. Im not sure if those power cars were modified to work with the Class 91 TDM.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

The power cars were fitted with TDM equipment, although at first the power cars were only used to supply ETS to the coaching stock, the traction motors were isolated (it was later realised that running HST engines at 1,000rpm constantly was a bad idea and they were re-connected). The Power cars had the TDM equipment removed before transfer to cross country routes.

 

[Phoenix]

Ok fair enough but let's say a class 47 and a class 86 on a frieght.

 

[87015]

Ok fair enough but let's say a class 47 and a class 86 on a frieght.

Only with a driver in each loco and being driven independently.

 

[Phoenix]

Only with a driver in each loco and being driven independently.

so it is possible then,
does anyone have any photos of this???

 

[hairyhandedfool]

I can't see a situation where it would be done.......They would have to be seriously short of motive power for a vitally important and heavy train.

 

[Phoenix]

I can't see a situation where it would be done.......They would have to be seriously short of motive power for a vitally important and heavy train.

Yeah I see what you mean it's the main reason for me to ask such a question the fact it would have to be an extremly rare situation.

 

[Oracle]

Stretching a point Class 33 can work with Class 73 I recall .or is it just 33/1? I am not sure if the 73s are blue-star. In the past there have been steam + diesel and diesel+steam and on the Woodhead route there were steam + 76 combos as evidenced by a published photo. Did they then use diesels + 76?

 

[driver9000]

33/1s and 73s were both blue star, but only possible when the 73 was in Diesel mode.

I dont think any diesel and electrics share the same multiple working class so doubt it will be possible, working in tandem is a different thing where only through control of the brake is retained for the leading locomotive, both require a driver for traction power

 

[P156KWJ]

Don't forget there's a thunderbird class 86 at York for assisting failed Class 43s on the ECML. And IIRC, The ECML 91s / 43s TnT worked in tandem, not multiple.

 

[1D53]

Don't forget there's a thunderbird class 86 at York for assisting failed Class 43s on the ECML.

No there isn't. Northern ECML thunderbird duties are provided by 67's located at Newcastle and Doncaster.

 

[P156KWJ]

why's there a Freightliner can in platform 3 then?

 

[Phoenix]

why's there a Freightliner can in platform 3 then?

Apparently it is used for route learning that is what I heard last about it.

 

[Oracle]

Just a thought...33 & 73 could run in tandem in diesel mode but presumably just as a 33/1 and 73 can connect to SR electric stock, presumably 33/1 + 73 can connect via bagpipes?

Were 33/1 and 5-WES units able to couple and either cab control the other? I was on a 10-WES back in autumn of '95 that had a 33/1 added on the back on the Portsmouth Direct as traction motors were burning out on leaf mush.

 

[Phoenix]

Just a thought...33 & 73 could run in tandem in diesel mode but presumably just as a 33/1 and 73 can connect to SR electric stock, presumably 33/1 + 73 can connect via bagpipes?

Were 33/1 and 5-WES units able to couple and either cab control the other? I was on a 10-WES back in autumn of '95 that had a 33/1 added on the back on the Portsmouth Direct as traction motors were burning out on leaf mush.

I don't see why not as all using a diesel engine does is create the electricity for the traction motor that would have been provided by 3rd rail anyway although this does seem abit of a novice way of thinging but I put my money on that one.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

When the 33s coupled to SR stock, the SR stock didn't provided any traction power (why would it need too?) to my knowledge, besides which I though the bagpipes were just Main Air and Brake Air pipes.

 

[87015]

When the 33s coupled to SR stock, the SR stock didn't provided any traction power (why would it need too?) to my knowledge, besides which I though the bagpipes were just Main Air and Brake Air pipes.

Definitely had 33/1+VEP both powering, 99% sure there was a booked move of 33/TC/VEP with VEP detached at Basingstoke on some commuter out of Waterloo in the 80s.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

Definitely had 33/1+VEP both powering, 99% sure there was a booked move of 33/TC/VEP with VEP detached at Basingstoke on some commuter out of Waterloo in the 80s.

I thought, and I could very well be wrong, that the 33 waited at Basingstoke for the TC/VEP to pull in and the 33 took the it the rest of the way.

 

[87015]

Both under power.

 

[33056]

ACTS in Holland use (or did until recently) ex NS class 1200 electric and ex SNCB (Belgium) class 62 diesel in multiple, like THIS . I can't find a picture with the diesel clagging to prove it, but I have actually been on a train over a diesel route with the diesel being driven from the electric which was leading.

 

[Crompton Karl]

The 33+TC+VEP was a formation where a semi fast Sailsbury (33+TC) and a semi fast Southampton (VEP) all traveled together as far as Baisingstoke with both the 33/1 & VEP under controlled power via the leading cab.

Basically anything built after 1951 with Southern Region bagpipes fitted could work in mulipull regardless of main traction type 73+33/1 either under electric or diesel for the 73, EMU+DEMU, EMU+73/1, TC+33/1 etc.... as far as i am aware, the only BR built EMU (with 1951 style equipment) that was not compatable with a 33/1 or 73 was the 442 due to an oversight in the software for the units made during the construction process which meant that the 442 could couple up and brakes could be controlled by the 33 but they could not operate in mutipull (this also affected these units being able to be driven pushpull with a 33/1 attached). Of course due to privatisation and other factors nothing built after 1987/88 was compatable with 1951 type SR stock as they had no Bagpipes + Buckeye etc.

I think i am right, please correct me if i am wrong.

Karl

 

[Oracle]

So how would, in the leaf fall season, a Crompton push and assist a 442 set under power? Having experienced same, I am intrigued. The 33 was used on several pushes that day including slam stock.

 

[JoshW1992]

I know that an EWS 66 and 92 cannot work in multi

 

[CraigS]

I know that an EWS 66 and 92 cannot work in multi

No 66 can work in multi with 92, they don't have the same multiple coupling type as each other. A class 66 has AAR (allowing it work with 59s and 67s) and 92s have TDM.

 

[JoshW1992]

No 66 can work in multi with 92, they don't have the same multiple coupling type as each other. A class 66 has AAR (allowing it work with 59s and 67s) and 92s have TDM.

Yeah I know, however, obviously, 92's can couple together with 66's/67's.

 

[O L Leigh]

I'm not convinced about this 2 x VEP + Cl33/1 movement. With 2 EMU's under power as normal, why bother with the Crompton...? Are you sure the VEP's were under power (my experience with duff EMU's is that the motors still whine a certain amount even when isolated)? I can understand why a Crompton would be needed with the VEP + TC formation, as the VEP wouldn't be man enough to shift the TC on it's own and needs the extra help, but not this.

As for real electric + diesel interworking, one of the uses envisaged for the Cl210 DEMU was to work them in multiple with a Cl317 out of St Pancras as far as Bedford where the train would divide and the DEMU continue on beyond the end of the wires. Looking at the pics of the Cl210 prototypes they certainly appear to be compatible as they share a number of key features with the Cl317. I'm not sure trials were ever conducted, though.

O L Leigh

 

[paul1609]

33/1s and 73s were both blue star, but only possible when the 73 was in Diesel mode.

I dont think any diesel and electrics share the same multiple working class so doubt it will be possible, working in tandem is a different thing where only through control of the brake is retained for the leading locomotive, both require a driver for traction power

33/1s commonly worked with EMUs. There were regular workings from Waterloo which comprised of 2 x 4 veps and 4tc and 33/1 these split at Basingstoke to serve Bourenmouth and Salisbury. Football reliefs from Portsmouth to Eastleigh prior to electrification often comprised of a BEP/CIG with a 33/1 on the rear. For those times the performance was quite special on the electrified tracks.