• Our new ticketing site is now live! Using either this or the original site (both powered by TrainSplit) helps support the running of the forum with every ticket purchase! Find out more and ask any questions/give us feedback in this thread!

Did the unions ever try and stop Beeching?

Status
Not open for further replies.

Cloud Strife

Established Member
Joined
25 Feb 2014
Messages
2,964
But he went too far, and my main criticism is that he didn't explore how some marginal lines could have been run more economically.

Yes, I'm thinking about a lot of smaller lines such as the Deeside Railway in this case. The train in 1965 was marginally slower than the bus today, and with some improvements such as only having unstaffed stations and moving to request stops for 4-5 stations, it should have been possible to make the line pay for itself, especially with tourist traffic in summer.

I don't think it's fully appreciated how many gaps remain in the motorway network from what was planned and if more had been completed it might have helped tip the balance further from the railways.

I agree with this. A good example is from Cambridge northwards: there's still a substantial gap between Cambridge and Hull (and onwards to York and Thirsk) that could be filled in, for instance.
 
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R

RailUK Forums

WesternLancer

Veteran Member
Joined
12 Apr 2019
Messages
15,261
As chairman of the BRB Beeching was deeply involved in any negotiations with the unions, and both they and the press associated events on the railway with him, as these screenshots of news reports surrounding the October 1962 strike show:
View attachment 164416
(Screenshot from British Movietone newsreel. Daily Sketch newspaper, headline "BEECHING: I'VE NO PLANS TO MEET UNIONS")
View attachment 164418
(Screenshot from British Movietone newsreel. Daily Mirror newspaper, headline "OCT. 3 - NO TRAINS ANYWHERE - Union slams back at Beeching sackings")
View attachment 164419
(Screenshot from ATV news report on NUR strike march in Derby. Marcher holds placard reading "£24,000 A YEAR TO SACK THE POOR £9 A WEEK MAN")


The unions also attacked Beeching in response to the report itself (this is from the NUR's "The Mis-Shaping of British Railways" pamphlet:
View attachment 164420
Interesting to see those images / links.
 

RT4038

Established Member
Joined
22 Feb 2014
Messages
5,457
The key Union line being that, "The financial rot set in ONLY AFTER the Tory Government denationalised road haulage."

So presumably the rail unions wanted road haulage nationalised to protect freight on the railways. But that ignored that Motorway building was under way, car ownership increasing and the emergence of the package holiday.

I don't think it's fully appreciated how many gaps remain in the motorway network from what was planned and if more had been completed it might have helped tip the balance further from the railways.
I don't think car ownership increasing and package holidays had anything to do with the unions wanting road haulage to be nationalised. They wanted road haulage to be nationalised so the railways could have a good old fashioned monopoly (and charge prices nothing to do with market forces), in order for the Union (and thereby the staff) to have leverage over the country to improve pay and conditions and protect their jobs. After the 1955 stoppage (in particular) this was the last thing any Government was going to contemplate in this sphere.
 

6Gman

Established Member
Joined
1 May 2012
Messages
9,210
The Unions would not be fighting Beeching, he didn't close any railway.

They would be fighting the Government. Governments, from both major parties, decided which parts of Beechings report to adopt or discard.
My father was an ASLEF Branch Secretary at the time.

They were not fighting "management", they were fighting government.

Industrial action would have been futile and probably counter-productive.

Instead they targeted political action and his branch was certainly active in the relevant General Election.
 

Bald Rick

Veteran Member
Joined
28 Sep 2010
Messages
35,872
Industrial action against line closures would surely have been counter productive.

* Government policy is to shut down large numbers of lines and stations, as analysis shows them to be little used, and that the few passenegrs affected shiuld make alternative arrangements
* Unions call strike against the policy
* Strike shuts down large numbers of lines and stations, many of ehich were little used
* The few passengers affected on the little used lines and stations make alternative arrangements
* Government policy achieved.
 
Last edited:

stuving

Member
Joined
26 Jan 2017
Messages
737
Given how this discussion has gone, I'd suggest you look at this from the Railways Archive. It's Beeching explaining his views on transport planning overall, not just the railways, in early 1965 (so after the election the Tories lost). You might be surprised.

He was was keen on planning, and not always on free competition, which the new Labour government would probably have liked more then Ernie Marples. And he also wanted to restrict private car use, and is the only other person I've ever heard seriously propose banning all long-term on-street parking (at least in cities).
 
Last edited:

Rescars

Established Member
Joined
25 May 2021
Messages
2,562
Location
Surrey
Given how this discussion has gone, I'd suggest you look at this from the Railways Archive. It's Beeching explaining his views on transport planning overall, not just the railways, in early 1965 (so after the election the Tories lost). You might be surprised.

He was was keen on planning, and not always on free competition, which the new Labour government would probably have liked more then Ernie Marples. And he also wanted to restrict private car use, and is the only other person I've ever heard seriously propose banning all long-term on-street parking (at least in cites).
Thank you for this link. An interesting read indeed.
 

Dr Hoo

Established Member
Joined
10 Nov 2015
Messages
5,689
Location
Hope Valley
As chairman of the BRB Beeching was deeply involved in any negotiations with the unions, and both they and the press associated events on the railway with him, as these screenshots of news reports surrounding the October 1962 strike show:

The Annual Reports for the period are very informative although there were obviously changes in the presentation between 1962 and 1963. The 1962 Report covered all of the activities of the British Transport Commission (BTC) in its final year. The 1963 Report was solely about the British Railways Board.
It is often forgotten that Dr Beeching's first challenge was to dismantle the BTC and prepare the rail industry for a future under the Transport Act 1962, before actually getting on with the job of re-shaping BR.
It is also often forgotten that the railway workshops had been under separate regional control within British Railways and there was very little by way of centralised strategy or management from 'Derby' or an equivalent.
The workshops were brought together just at the time when steam locomotive manufacture had ceased and heavy overhaul was winding down. The rush of diesel locomotive and DMU construction under the Modernisation Plan was also nearing completion and the overall numbers of both wagons and hauled coaching stock were reducing rapidly. But the number and spread of workshops still reflected pre-nationalisation (and even pre-grouping) needs. So a major contraction in workshops was both inevitable and long overdue.
Annual reports in those days helpfully give a lot of details of the work of the various industry negotiating bodies and industrial relations generally. Much of the focus in 1962 in particular was about pay. The Chairman of the BTC, Dr Beeching, had made an offer to the unions of a 3% rise. This was not accepted and the unions took the matter to the Prime Minister. [So, 'dashing off to "Number 10" is nothing new.]
Further discussions about implementing the 'Guillebaud Report' took place during the summer, with a further increase of 6% agreed in November. I am not aware of any serious suggestions that Dr Beeching was not fully engaged in this process, albeit reportedly in consultation with the Chancellor of the Exchequer and other ministers.
Entirely separately the NUR and the Confederation of Shipbuilding and Engineering Unions called a one-day strike on 3 October "as a protest against the closing of branch lines, withdrawal of services and the closure of railway workshops" (as illustrated in the quote above). The newspaper report suggesting that Dr B was refusing to talk seems somewhat hyperbolic.
The level of staff turnover in 1962 was amazing. From around 500,000 railway staff at the start of 1962, nearly 80,000 left but almost 53,000 were recruited.
In 1963 (publication year of the Reshaping Report) there were no major strikes reported. Although 67,000 BR staff left, over 30,000 were still recruited. The number of staff made compulsorily redundant was actually quite small.
Meanwhile, the debt mountain continued to grow. The transition from the BTC to a smaller BR makes the figures slightly confusing but in 1962 there was an accumulated debt just since 1956 of £600,000,000 with interest due at 5-6.75%p.a. with a further £82,500,000 landing in the 'begging bowl' in six tranches during the second half of 1962 to cover the pay increases and continuing haemorrhaging of traffic.
Desperate times!

Given how this discussion has gone, I'd suggest you look at this from the Railways Archive. It's Beeching explaining his views on transport planning overall, not just the railways, in early 1965 (so after the election the Tories lost). You might be surprised.
Thank you very much for this link.
 
Last edited:

yorksrob

Veteran Member
Joined
6 Aug 2009
Messages
44,374
Location
Yorks
Large figures for sure, but with no mechanism for supporting socially necessary lines, it's difficult to disentangle what proportion of the £600+ million was as a result of "fat" in the system and what was actually needed to maintain a fit for purpose passenger railway.
 

Eyersey468

Established Member
Joined
14 Sep 2018
Messages
2,601
Beeching: Champion of the Railway? is a good book that gives the other side of the story. Written by RHN Hardy. It discusses the unions input in some detail too.
Just ordered a copy of this as I hadn't heard of it before.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

Indeed, I suspect the unions would have kicked off and basically said "fully staffed railway or nothing", to which the Government would have said "well, nothing then".
The unions are (naturally) going to fight for every job but there has to come a point when you see the writing on the wall and understand that if changes aren't made it puts every job at risk
 
Last edited:

GRALISTAIR

Established Member
Joined
11 Apr 2012
Messages
10,520
Location
Preston Lancs
The unions are (naturally) going to fight for every job but there has to come a point when you see the writing on the wall and understand that if changes aren't made it puts every job at risk
Which is my biggest worry. I love the railways but reasonableness needs to come from all sides -Government, management, unions.
 

WesternLancer

Veteran Member
Joined
12 Apr 2019
Messages
15,261
The Annual Reports for the period are very informative although there were obviously changes in the presentation between 1962 and 1963. The 1962 Report covered all of the activities of the British Transport Commission (BTC) in its final year. The 1963 Report was solely about the British Railways Board.
It is often forgotten that Dr Beeching's first challenge was to dismantle the BTC and prepare the rail industry for a future under the Transport Act 1962, before actually getting on with the job of re-shaping BR.
It is also often forgotten that the railway workshops had been under separate regional control within British Railways and there was very little by way of centralised strategy or management from 'Derby' or an equivalent.
The workshops were brought together just at the time when steam locomotive manufacture had ceased and heavy overhaul was winding down. The rush of diesel locomotive and DMU construction under the Modernisation Plan was also nearing completion and the overall numbers of both wagons and hauled coaching stock were reducing rapidly. But the number and spread of workshops still reflected pre-nationalisation (and even pre-grouping) needs. So a major contraction in workshops was both inevitable and long overdue.
Annual reports in those days helpfully give a lot of details of the work of the various industry negotiating bodies and industrial relations generally. Much of the focus in 1962 in particular was about pay. The Chairman of the BTC, Dr Beeching, had made an offer to the unions of a 3% rise. This was not accepted and the unions took the matter to the Prime Minister. [So, 'dashing off to "Number 10" is nothing new.]
Further discussions about implementing the 'Guillebaud Report' took place during the summer, with a further increase of 6% agreed in November. I am not aware of any serious suggestions that Dr Beeching was not fully engaged in this process, albeit reportedly in consultation with the Chancellor of the Exchequer and other ministers.
Entirely separately the NUR and the Confederation of Shipbuilding and Engineering Unions called a one-day strike on 3 October "as a protest against the closing of branch lines, withdrawal of services and the closure of railway workshops" (as illustrated in the quote above). The newspaper report suggesting that Dr B was refusing to talk seems somewhat hyperbolic.
The level of staff turnover in 1962 was amazing. From around 500,000 railway staff at the start of 1962, nearly 80,000 left but almost 53,000 were recruited.
In 1963 (publication year of the Reshaping Report) there were no major strikes reported. Although 67,000 BR staff left, over 30,000 were still recruited. The number of staff made compulsorily redundant was actually quite small.
Meanwhile, the debt mountain continued to grow. The transition from the BTC to a smaller BR makes the figures slightly confusing but in 1962 there was an accumulated debt just since 1956 of £600,000,000 with interest due at 5-6.75%p.a. with a further £82,500,000 landing the 'begging bowl' in six tranches during the second half of 1962 to cover the pay increases and continuing haemorrhaging of traffic.
Desperate times!


Thank you very much for this link.
Very interesting to read.
 

nanstallon

Member
Joined
18 Dec 2015
Messages
1,063
Which is my biggest worry. I love the railways but reasonableness needs to come from all sides -Government, management, unions.
Same here, but we cannot expect the taxpayer to go on forking out massive subsidies for the railways. There are alternatives, and perhaps the unions need to be reminded of this.
 

Eyersey468

Established Member
Joined
14 Sep 2018
Messages
2,601
Same here, but we cannot expect the taxpayer to go on forking out massive subsidies for the railways. There are alternatives, and perhaps the unions need to be reminded of this.
I agree the taxpayer couldn't keep funding mounting losses indefinitely
 

yorksrob

Veteran Member
Joined
6 Aug 2009
Messages
44,374
Location
Yorks
Same here, but we cannot expect the taxpayer to go on forking out massive subsidies for the railways. There are alternatives, and perhaps the unions need to be reminded of this.

It depends on what one considers to be a "massive" subsidy. I note that in this country we fund plenty of public services entirely by subsidy, so the railway demanding a fee at point of use is already ahead of those.

It's also worth noting that passenger usage is actually, in spite of the pandemic, at a high in comparison to most of the past sixty years, so perhaps the subsidies are going part way to providing the sort of service that people actually need.

I'm also sceptical of these "alternatives" that you say exist.
 

Merle Haggard

Established Member
Joined
20 Oct 2019
Messages
3,959
Location
Northampton
Beeching's cuts are usually only thought of as line closures. As Dr Hoo explained above, there was also big changes to the C.M. & E.E. / workshops.
To avoid the transfer from the B.T.C. to the B.R.B. of, in financial terms, assets with a book value but surplus to requirements there was also a massive pruning of loco. stock. This took place during late 1962 reaching a peak at the end of December.. The reasons were not at the time understood by the 'spotter on the platform' but we were shocked!
Some Regions seem to have the policy of condemning complete loco types; for example, Scottish Region chose B.R. Standard 'Clan' class for extinction, the S.R., 3 - cylinder Moguls and the N.E.R., Q7s. It was certainly the case that some of the last returned from a Works visit for the fitting of A.W.S. to be condemned on arrival at their home shed. The W.R., E.R. & L.M.R. condemned lots of express passenger engines in the period (all the'King", 'Princess", many A1 & A2 classes, for example) but dieselisation would also have been a factor.
What we didn't notice at the time was coaching stock condemnation which presumably also happened, although it was the case that the more interesting pre-Stanier LMS coaches noticeably disappeared. Similarly for wagon, every 7-plank (wooden) mineral wagon, regardless of condition, was marked 'cond'.
Some of these plans had to be reviewed when the big freeze started though; for example we 'visited' Shrewsbury shed early Jan. and found a very rusty withdrawn Castle with no brass identification fiercely 'blowing off' ready to replace frozen diesels on express work. But not for long.

I think I recollect Union reaction to proposed Workshop closures and there was certainly Union hostility towards private wagon repairers, which were both consequential to the effects of Beeching cuts
 

Western Lord

Member
Joined
17 Mar 2014
Messages
1,065
It depends on what one considers to be a "massive" subsidy. I note that in this country we fund plenty of public services entirely by subsidy, so the railway demanding a fee at point of use is already ahead of those.

It's also worth noting that passenger usage is actually, in spite of the pandemic, at a high in comparison to most of the past sixty years, so perhaps the subsidies are going part way to providing the sort of service that people actually need.

I'm also sceptical of these "alternatives" that you say exist.
The vast majority of people in this country use the alternatives. Rail accounts for a small proportion of the total travel market. It is not a public service like the NHS or the emergency services. There are plenty of far more basic things that are essential to life that are not subsidised.
 

yorksrob

Veteran Member
Joined
6 Aug 2009
Messages
44,374
Location
Yorks
The vast majority of people in this country use the alternatives. Rail accounts for a small proportion of the total travel market. It is not a public service like the NHS or the emergency services. There are plenty of far more basic things that are essential to life that are not subsidised.

The majority use rail for some things. The ability to get around and go about ones business is a basic necessity and not everyone will have access to motor transport all of the time, if at all.
 

Merle Haggard

Established Member
Joined
20 Oct 2019
Messages
3,959
Location
Northampton
The majority use rail for some things. The ability to get around and go about ones business is a basic necessity and not everyone will have access to motor transport all of the time, if at all.

It would be interesting to see the figures for the proportion of the population that never use rail. I know it's anecdotal, and the train service around here isn't the best, but I know absolutely no-one else (neighbours, friends) who travels by rail
One change that's occurred, possibly sped up by Covid, is a big reduction in the number of people who have no choice but to use rail. In the past for those ommuting to major cities, notably London, rail was the only practical possibility. Indeed, in the strikes of the 1970s - 1980s, resolution of railway strikes was weighted by the effect on the economy of having London commerce at an almost complete halt because office staff couldn't get to their London desk. W.F.H. now, and the passenger numbers to & from London, for instance, in the former peaks aren't mush higher than off peak. And long distance business journeys have also disappeared - the First accommodation on Cl 390 has gone from 2 1/2 or 3 1/2 cars to 1 1/2 and they're still pretty quiet.
Trouble is, rail is largely optional (leisure) travel. There were strong arguments for subsidising travel to work but it is the case that other leisure industries aren't subsidised.
Just pointing out what the view might be from a cash-strapped Government, I really like train travel myself.
 

yorksrob

Veteran Member
Joined
6 Aug 2009
Messages
44,374
Location
Yorks
It would be interesting to see the figures for the proportion of the population that never use rail. I know it's anecdotal, and the train service around here isn't the best, but I know absolutely no-one else (neighbours, friends) who travels by rail
One change that's occurred, possibly sped up by Covid, is a big reduction in the number of people who have no choice but to use rail. In the past for those ommuting to major cities, notably London, rail was the only practical possibility. Indeed, in the strikes of the 1970s - 1980s, resolution of railway strikes was weighted by the effect on the economy of having London commerce at an almost complete halt because office staff couldn't get to their London desk. W.F.H. now, and the passenger numbers to & from London, for instance, in the former peaks aren't mush higher than off peak. And long distance business journeys have also disappeared - the First accommodation on Cl 390 has gone from 2 1/2 or 3 1/2 cars to 1 1/2 and they're still pretty quiet.
Trouble is, rail is largely optional (leisure) travel. There were strong arguments for subsidising travel to work but it is the case that other leisure industries aren't subsidised.
Just pointing out what the view might be from a cash-strapped Government, I really like train travel myself.

I think that once you get down to brass tacks, there are a large cohort of people who maybe don't use rail frequently, but do find it important in some circumstances.

A cash strapped government should know the importance of leisure travel in general and the importance of enabling it for all sorts of reasons. Yes it might be "optional" but that's of no help to the businesses that rely on it.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

Beeching's cuts are usually only thought of as line closures. As Dr Hoo explained above, there was also big changes to the C.M. & E.E. / workshops.
To avoid the transfer from the B.T.C. to the B.R.B. of, in financial terms, assets with a book value but surplus to requirements there was also a massive pruning of loco. stock. This took place during late 1962 reaching a peak at the end of December.. The reasons were not at the time understood by the 'spotter on the platform' but we were shocked!
Some Regions seem to have the policy of condemning complete loco types; for example, Scottish Region chose B.R. Standard 'Clan' class for extinction, the S.R., 3 - cylinder Moguls and the N.E.R., Q7s. It was certainly the case that some of the last returned from a Works visit for the fitting of A.W.S. to be condemned on arrival at their home shed. The W.R., E.R. & L.M.R. condemned lots of express passenger engines in the period (all the'King", 'Princess", many A1 & A2 classes, for example) but dieselisation would also have been a factor.
What we didn't notice at the time was coaching stock condemnation which presumably also happened, although it was the case that the more interesting pre-Stanier LMS coaches noticeably disappeared. Similarly for wagon, every 7-plank (wooden) mineral wagon, regardless of condition, was marked 'cond'.
Some of these plans had to be reviewed when the big freeze started though; for example we 'visited' Shrewsbury shed early Jan. and found a very rusty withdrawn Castle with no brass identification fiercely 'blowing off' ready to replace frozen diesels on express work. But not for long.

I think I recollect Union reaction to proposed Workshop closures and there was certainly Union hostility towards private wagon repairers, which were both consequential to the effects of Beeching cuts

This is an interesting point. You can rearrange workshops and withdraw loco types, however these sorts of efficiencies don't have to affect the overall product. This is not the case with service withdrawals.
 

WesternLancer

Veteran Member
Joined
12 Apr 2019
Messages
15,261
The majority use rail for some things. The ability to get around and go about ones business is a basic necessity and not everyone will have access to motor transport all of the time, if at all.
Good points - I think people often look at things from the point of view of their own personal experience in the past or now - but it's important to look wider - for example when I was in my late teens early 20s in the 1980s although it was a financial stretch it was feasible for me to run an old car and drive. My family members of the same age now find that totally unfeasible due to cost of motoring insurance alone, and as a consequence haven't even got driving licenses.
 

yorksrob

Veteran Member
Joined
6 Aug 2009
Messages
44,374
Location
Yorks
Good points - I think people often look at things from the point of view of their own personal experience in the past or now - but it's important to look wider - for example when I was in my late teens early 20s in the 1980s although it was a financial stretch it was feasible for me to run an old car and drive. My family members of the same age now find that totally unfeasible due to cost of motoring insurance alone, and as a consequence haven't even got driving licenses.

Indeed. From my own experience growing up, we had a family car which my father and sisters could drive as and when needed. If two of them needed to be somewhere else at the same time, one would have to use an alternative.

For young people today, the justification for the cost of running a car must be far more marginal alongside astronomical rent/mortgage costs, student loans etc.
 

Western Lord

Member
Joined
17 Mar 2014
Messages
1,065
The majority use rail for some things. The ability to get around and go about ones business is a basic necessity and not everyone will have access to motor transport all of the time, if at all.
You really are deluding yourself if you believe that. If I go to my local station I have a choice of going north or south. No use at all if I intend to go east or west. I don't know why it is so hard for some people to realise that rail plays no part in most people's travel plans. If even 5% of car journeys transferred to rail the trains would be swamped. There is no conceivable rail network that could cater for the journeys made by car.
 

yorksrob

Veteran Member
Joined
6 Aug 2009
Messages
44,374
Location
Yorks
You really are deluding yourself if you believe that. If I go to my local station I have a choice of going north or south. No use at all if I intend to go east or west. I don't know why it is so hard for some people to realise that rail plays no part in most people's travel plans. If even 5% of car journeys transferred to rail the trains would be swamped. There is no conceivable rail network that could cater for the journeys made by car.

Firstly you're wrong, just because rail doesn't cater for every single possible journey, that doesn't mean that most people won't use it at some times. Rail covers the main transport flows, so most people will find it useful for some of these.

Secondly, the 5% argument is totally irrelevant - lots of these car journeys will be pootling around short distance.
 

Western Lord

Member
Joined
17 Mar 2014
Messages
1,065
Firstly you're wrong, just because rail doesn't cater for every single possible journey, that doesn't mean that most people won't use it at some times. Rail covers the main transport flows, so most people will find it useful for some of these.

Secondly, the 5% argument is totally irrelevant - lots of these car journeys will be pootling around short distance.
Please try to understand. Most people do not use rail any of the time.
 

Dr Hoo

Established Member
Joined
10 Nov 2015
Messages
5,689
Location
Hope Valley
I'd like to see your evidence for that assertion.
In the context of the Beeching re-shaping, in the 1960s, it is interesting to note how modal share of passenger transport was changing.

[From Transport Statistics Great Britain]
In 1955 passenger km by bus were 39% of movement, by rail they were 19%, leaving a minority 42% by private car.
With things like the ASLE&F strike of 1955 and the temporary Suez crisis in fuel availability in 1956 receding in the rear view mirror, rising car ownership and improvements to the road network, the figures for 1963 were 23% by bus, 12% by rail and a massive 64% by car. (These trends continued with vengeance thereafter.) It was already clear that many people had effectively turned their back on public transport, full stop.

The fact that people might have still done the odd public transport trip if their car was in for service or repair was neither here nor there in the underlying need for many rail and bus services, especially in rural areas.

The BTC had gone back to the Minister no fewer than six times in as little as 4 months at the end of 1962 to borrow a total of £82.5 million just to help pay the interest on its already massive accumulated earlier debt, to pay increased wages and basic bills like traction current and fuel. The entire edifice was utterly out of financial control.

(But the unions didn't seem to have noticed.)
 

Titfield

Established Member
Joined
26 Jun 2013
Messages
3,233
My family members of the same age now find that totally unfeasible due to cost of motoring insurance alone, and as a consequence haven't even got driving licenses.

and without wishing to appear facetious what journeys do they make and how do they "get around"?
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Top