Did not touch in on Oyster

[DCP1018]

Hi,

I got issued a summons from British Transport Police for not having the correct fare on my oyster card, my oyster did not touch the yellow portal from the beginning of my journey and now instead of a penalty fare, the officer who stopped me has issued me a summons?? He also issued me with a caution, but did not hand me any papers after doing so, was he suppose do that after issuing me with a caution?

I have NEVER been in trouble with the police ever so this is all new to me. My questions are

1) what is likely to happen now?
2) how much will the fine be?
3)Is there any help/advice I can seek about this matter

Many thanks,

NB: He asked me if I could pay the fare now, and I offered to pay with my debit card which I had at hand but he never took it as an acceptable method to pay for the fare? why was that?

 

[bb21]

So you didn't touch in at the beginning of your journey because there is no money on the card?

A Penalty Fare is still a fare. If the RPI suspect some irregularity going on then he does not have to offer you the chance to pay a Penalty Fare. He can report you for the company to consider prosecution instead, which appears to be what he has done.

You do not get given a copy of his notes. If you didn't have any money on you to pay the fare then this could be strong proof that you intended to avoid paying the correct fare.

Can you confirm that you actually spoke to the BTP, rather than just revenue protection staff from the train company?

What do you mean by summons? Only a court can issue a summons.

 

[revenueadvice]

When you say you were "issued with a caution". I think what happened is that you WERE cautioned. By cautioning you the officer was reminding you that anything you say from that point on can be used as evidence. It is not a caution in terms of if you are arrested and they let you off with a caution instead of charging you with an offence.

 

[DCP1018]

Basically What I did, two days ago I went to the O2, and when I was coming back from the O2, they had the barriers open, and I didn't touch the portal. When I came back, I touched my last destination, in Palmers green, forgetting I didn't touch at the o2, So I thought if start my journey from Palmers Green in a couple days go to where I was going (Kentish Town West) I thought that would be a completed journey to kentish Town West from the same station I touched at (Palmers Green a couple days ago) (There was £1.80 on the oyster card), but clearly this was not the case. I had my debit card to pay for the fare when he asked me 'can you pay for this fare now' why is that not a sufficient way to pay, when there are machines there that take debit cards, and I'm sorry that IS proof that I was willing to pay it, it was unfortunate I didn't have cash yes, but I did offer to pay the fare by debit card, and I hope that was noted.

In regards to who I spoke to, I think I spoke to both, the guy who said I was cautioned and said it is a 'summons' was in a suit, and had a name tag attached to him. all I know is when the a member of the BTP was taking my details, the BTP said we need your details for the penalty fare, and the man in the suit then straight away said, no its not a penalty its a summons?? Then, he took me to one side and said you are not being arrested you are being cautioned, said that "What you say can be used in evidence" speech then asked me a couple questions

I asked him, what is likely to happen,what do I have to pay, but he didn't seem to know?

 

[maniacmartin]

Basically What I did, two days ago I went to the O2, and when I was coming back from the O2, they had the barriers open, and I didn't touch the portal. When I came back, I touched my last destination, in Palmers green, forgetting I didn't touch at the o2, So I thought if start my journey from Palmers Green in a couple days go to where I was going (Kentish Town West) I thought that would be a completed journey to kentish Town West from the same station I touched at (Palmers Green a couple days ago) (There was £1.80 on the oyster card),

Journeys on Oyster are subject to a maximum journey time, so you cannot touch in at Palmer's Green and then touch out at Kentish Town West a few days later and it count as one journey. The system will have automatically closed off the original journey and charged the maximum cash fare as you only touched at one end-point.

From what you've written implies to me that you wanted to get away with not paying for the journey from the O2.

I'm still not convinced that your letter was actually a summons from the BTP. Can you go back and check what it says and who it is from? Does it mention any legislation such as Regulation of Railways Act or Railway Byelaws?

 

[DCP1018]

Ah ok I didn't know this, No letter has been sent to me yet, this happened yesterday. Do you know what is likely to happen?

 

[W230]

Ah ok I didn't know this, No letter has been sent to me yet, this happened yesterday. Do you know what is likely to happen?

Ok then - a court issues a summons. BTP/RPIs do not.

The "caution" you were given refers to the fact you were cautioned before a PACE interview was carried out not that the matter was finalised by a "police caution" (a means of disposal by police for certain offences/in certain circumstances).

If you originally had £1.80 on your Oyster card then I would imagine it was possibly in debt from the earlier journey as you (I assume) ended up touching in at Palmers Green and not touching out that day so a penalty would have been applied.

As you then didn't touch in at Palmers Green on the day you were caught without a ticket, and your Oyster card probably either had no money on it/insufficient for the journey, then I assume this is the reason you are being prosecuted. Assuming (again) the RPI checked your Oyster card, then they will have seen the incomplete journey from the other day, the fact that you had insufficient balance on it when you were stopped to complete the journey and that you had not (I assume) touched in at Palmers Green that day. Coupled with the fact that despite having the means to credit your Oyster card (a debit card) you chose not to and took the train anyway.These will probably be the reasons that they went straight to prosecution.

To be fair, there are posters all over Oyster areas (stations/trains/ticket offices etc) explaining that you must touch in before starting your journey - not two days earlier/later!

I would imagine that you will be sent a letter asking for your version of events and will then either be prosecuted: for not having a ticket (fine) or intention to fare evade (fine & criminal record) or alternatively may be invited/be able to offer to make an out of court settlement.

In my opinion, (I have nothing to do with railway prosection so it is only a guess), I would expect you to be prosecuted for the more serious intent to evade fare offence.

 

[londonboi]

hello there hopefully i can help on this one as i work for london underground


1. the minimum fare you should have on your oyster card to start a journey from the 02 is 1.50 as it is in z2/3 however in z1 the minimum fare you need to start a journey is 2.10 therefore you did not have the correct amount on your oyster card to begin with as i am sure the person taking your details would have asked where you were travelling to if you were travelling through Z1

2. as for the gates been open at north greenwich this is a regular occurance to avoid a build up of passenger in the ticket hall. However from experience of dealing with big events like ones at the 02, wembley etc etc staff are ALWAYS using loud hailers informing passengers to touch in if your on oyster if you have paper tickets walk through as you did not touch in then YOU are at fault as the rules of oyster are very clear and form part of the conditions of carriage which is a like a contract you have with TFL is that when you purchase a oyster card you are agreeing to touch in and touch out on every journey failing to do this you are in breach of the contract and therefore liable to a penalty fare/prosecution depending on what route the rci will take.

3. to avoid having this again as your last question well the rule is simple really even if the gates are open it does not mean you don't touch in you must still touch in and touch out as london underground have a lot of inspectors the chances of getting caught are really high these days and they are taking it very seriously now
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Ok then - a court issues a summons. BTP/RPIs do not.

The "caution" you were given refers to the fact you were cautioned before a PACE interview was carried out not that the matter was finalised by a "police caution" (a means of disposal by police for certain offences/in certain circumstances).

If you originally had £1.80 on your Oyster card then I would imagine it was possibly in debt from the earlier journey as you (I assume) ended up touching in at Palmers Green and not touching out that day so a penalty would have been applied.

As you then didn't touch in at Palmers Green on the day you were caught without a ticket, and your Oyster card probably either had no money on it/insufficient for the journey, then I assume this is the reason you are being prosecuted. Assuming (again) the RPI checked your Oyster card, then they will have seen the incomplete journey from the other day, the fact that you had insufficient balance on it when you were stopped to complete the journey and that you had not (I assume) touched in at Palmers Green that day. Coupled with the fact that despite having the means to credit your Oyster card (a debit card) you chose not to and took the train anyway.These will probably be the reasons that they went straight to prosecution.

To be fair, there are posters all over Oyster areas (stations/trains/ticket offices etc) explaining that you must touch in before starting your journey - not two days earlier/later!

I would imagine that you will be sent a letter asking for your version of events and will then either be prosecuted: for not having a ticket (fine) or intention to fare evade (fine & criminal record) or alternatively may be invited/be able to offer to make an out of court settlement.

In my opinion, (I have nothing to do with railway prosection so it is only a guess), I would expect you to be prosecuted for the more serious intent to evade fare offence.

ok and what would you class as serious intent to evade fare ????

tfl is a public funded company where money from the government and tax payers help run the services

so what you are trying to say is what you done was ok and you should get away with it. I hear this every day day in day out "its my first time let me off, I wont do it again" trouble is YOU DID do it therefore you now need to face the consequence it is not nice i know and it can be allot of money to some people but the choice is simple you either touch in and pay the fare or risk having the higher cost option of a penalty fare or prosecution

so i think your last statement about sums it up really what happened that night

 

[swt_passenger]

If you originally had £1.80 on your Oyster card then I would imagine it was possibly in debt from the earlier journey as you (I assume) ended up touching in at Palmers Green and not touching out that day so a penalty would have been applied.

Wouldn't that have actually been a touch out causing an incomplete journey as there was no corresponding touch in? Doesn't the system then deduct a 'maximum cash fare' (which is what you're calling a penalty)?

 

[londonboi]

no a touch out is a incomplete journey the maximun touch out fare / incomplete journey price is:

off peak: £4.80
Peak: £7.20

he had £1.80 on hsi card at the start which for the journey he was doing was not enough to cover it as he was travelling from north greenwich - kentish town so i presume northe greenwhich - london bridge then london bridge - kentish town so he would need £2.10 on his oyster

 

[DCP1018]

Ah ok, thank you everyone for your help, I know it was naive/stupid of me not to touch at the O2 after the event, I just wanted to get out of there quick as I could, and I genuinely forgot to touch it, but hey it's happened, I will let them know my events of what happened when the letter comes, and see what the outcome is.

Thank you all again

 

[londonboi]

Ah ok, thank you everyone for your help, I know it was naive/stupid of me not to touch at the O2 after the event, I just wanted to get out of there quick as I could, and I genuinely forgot to touch it, but hey it's happened, I will let them know my events of what happened when the letter comes, and see what the outcome is.

Thank you all again

no problem its what we are hear for

if its a first offence you will poss get the chance to put your case forward then they will decide what coures eaction they will take

the best thing to do is be honest and apologize etc etc

if you lie they will catch you out just be honest and apologise

 

[W230]

ok and what would you class as serious intent to evade fare ????

You've confused me here. I'm in total agreement that it sounds like "bang on" fare evasion but I was simply trying to give the OP some facts. :?

Wouldn't that have actually been a touch out causing an incomplete journey as there was no corresponding touch in? Doesn't the system then deduct a 'maximum cash fare' (which is what you're calling a penalty)?

No idea. I'd assumed that Palmers Green was a station where they have Oyster validators rather than barriers. If this was the case then touching out at the end of the journey would actually be a touch in. As I don't actually know this or where Palmers Green is maybe I should quit while i'm behind - probably making far too many assumptions again!

 

[maniacmartin]

NRE's plan of Palmers Green shows it as not having barriers.

 

[Ivo]

NRE's plan of Palmers Green shows it as not having barriers.

As you should remember from this thread, NRE's information isn't always up-to-date

(N.B. I don't know Palmers Green so couldn't comment on it have barriers or not.)

 

[swt_passenger]

No idea. I'd assumed that Palmers Green was a station where they have Oyster validators rather than barriers. If this was the case then touching out at the end of the journey would actually be a touch in. As I don't actually know this or where Palmers Green is maybe I should quit while i'm behind - probably making far too many assumptions again!

Yes of course. If there's no barriers it's a different ball game...

 

[bb21]

I had my debit card to pay for the fare when he asked me 'can you pay for this fare now' why is that not a sufficient way to pay, when there are machines there that take debit cards, and I'm sorry that IS proof that I was willing to pay it, it was unfortunate I didn't have cash yes, but I did offer to pay the fare by debit card, and I hope that was noted.

Erm, you need to read what I said more carefully.

You asked a question as to why he asked you that specific question regarding whether you had sufficient money on you for the fare. I told you the reason why.

Why should people be allowed to just pay their fare when caught? Where is the incentive in that case to pay your fare correctly? We might as well all wait till we are caught then just pay the fare owed, otherwise everyone gets a free ride.

You did have an opportunity to pay your fare at your origin, with your debit card, and you refused to do so.

 

[DCP1018]

I just wanted to give an update on my situation which happened to me as my thread is now closed, and to any other people wanting to see the outcome of my case.

TFL asked for my events before they decided to prosecute, I wrote back to the letter, 3 weeks later I got a summons from the court, at this point I went to my mate who was a solicitor and they spoke to the prosecutions department of TFL to see if an out of court settlement could be arranged, they agreed if I paid their court costs and the fare they would drop the case and I would avoid a criminal record, which I did, so the case is over, I avoided a criminal record.

 

[bb21]

Thanks for updating us. I'm sure you will agree that it has been an expensive lesson.

 

[DCP1018]

Most definitely...

 

[zoneking]

This is one of the reasons I am terrified of Oyster. I am the "forgetting type".

 

[radamfi]

What happens if you leave Wembley Central after an event and they send you around the back entrance where there is no Oyster reader?

 

[Mike395]

What happens if you leave Wembley Central after an event and they send you around the back entrance where there is no Oyster reader?

For events like this, TfL programme the Oyster system to automatically refund anyone who may have been unable to touch in/out (worked out in the passenger's favour, based on the approximate scheduled end time of the event). They're operating a similar system for the Notting Hill Carnival this weekend. It doesn't happen instantaneously, however - it is processed overnight a few days after the event in question.

In the rare event this doesn't happen automatically, it will be resolved with a simple call to the Oyster helpdesk.

 

[Be3G]

For events like this, TfL programme the Oyster system to automatically refund anyone who may have been unable to touch in/out (worked out in the passenger's favour, based on the approximate scheduled end time of the event).

I do not know for certain, but my assumption is that TfL only do this for people exiting, not entering the system. As if they exit without touching out, the worst that happens is they get a maximum cash fare. Yet if they enter without touching in, they'll have a nasty time if meeting a ticket inspector en-route. As a poster said earlier in this thread, Oyster users are obligated to touch in and out for every journey, so I think sending them in to the system without a touch-in would be very risky.

 

[Deerfold]

I do not know for certain, but my assumption is that TfL only do this for people exiting, not entering the system. As if they exit without touching out, the worst that happens is they get a maximum cash fare. Yet if they enter without touching in, they'll have a nasty time if meeting a ticket inspector en-route. As a poster said earlier in this thread, Oyster users are obligated to touch in and out for every journey, so I think sending them in to the system without a touch-in would be very risky.

I'd assume it works for those who touch out but not in, whose previous touch out was at Wembley. If you arrived at Wembley by bus you might need to get in touch with the helpline.

Inspectors will usually be aware of large events.