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Did Ireland's long, harsh lockdown work?

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Philip

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So you're saying that "behaviour of some of the general public" caused infections to start falling, then enforced restrictions had to come in to "curb this" - why is it desirable to "curb" something which is causing infections to fall? This makes no sense.

No, I'm saying the behaviour of some people contributed towards the rise in infections and so restrictions had to be tightened/lockdown brought in to stop this rise and the subsequent increased load on the health service. Early signs (at least by the last 3 days) are that this approach is working with cases falling. I would imagine the same thing applies for Ireland.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

If we're going to depart from our pre-prepared pandemic plans, we should have a clear and logical reason, based by evidence. Otherwise we should follow the plan that we have carefully considered, and decided is the best course of action, with the least overall harms.

No one could have prepared for a pandemic like this, it is unprecedented and the last time anything like this was seen was in 1918. I'd be surprised if we had many pre-pandemic plans in place based on experience of the 1918 pandemic...
 
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initiation

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It isn't some long term research project as you seem to be implying, decisions have to made now and action taken quickly to prevent a health service crisis.
Good job that Stanford University in the US (top 5 university globally) have already done some research and found that more invasive NPIs had no more effect than less invasive ones. You can read the study here...
Could you point to a study that shows lockdowns have such an effect?


And what about the economic crisis, mental health crisis, education crisis. Or do only covid lives matter?

It's classic, "the government must do something" mentality.
 

Yew

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And what about the economic crisis, mental health crisis, education crisis. Or do only covid lives matter?
Exactly, I've not seen a harm/benefit analysis of these measures, surely the government must have one?
 

Dent

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No, I'm saying the behaviour of some people contributed towards the rise in infections and so restrictions had to be tightened/lockdown brought in to stop this rise and the subsequent increased load on the health service. Early signs (at least by the last 3 days) are that this approach is working with cases falling. I would imagine the same thing applies for Ireland.

The fact that the peak was before the current restrictions existed rather conclusively prove that narrative to be false.
 

Philip

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The fact that the peak was before the current restrictions existed rather conclusively prove that narrative to be false.

I think you will find that the highest case days occurred between 29th December and 9th January. The tier 4 restrictions (nearly lockdown in nature), began in London and the South East on 19th December, which correlates well with the peak in these regions occurring a couple of weeks later.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

Good job that Stanford University in the US (top 5 university globally) have already done some research and found that more invasive NPIs had no more effect than less invasive ones. You can read the study here...
Could you point to a study that shows lockdowns have such an effect?


And what about the economic crisis, mental health crisis, education crisis. Or do only covid lives matter?

It's classic, "the government must do something" mentality.
All lives matter, but in relation to the what the pandemic is doing to the health service, the lives that matter are all those who cannot receive the care/treatments/operations that they would normally have, because of covid patients taking up the occupancy. As well as the lives of all doctors, nurses, care workers and medical staff who have a much heavier workload and having to work in a very stressful and upsetting environment.
 

takno

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All lives matter, but in relation to the what the pandemic is doing to the health service, the lives that matter are all those who cannot receive the care/treatments/operations that they would normally have, because of covid patients taking up the occupancy. As well as the lives of all doctors, nurses, care workers and medical staff who have a much heavier workload and having to work in a very stressful and upsetting environment.
Right, so one option is just to not let the Covid patients into hospitals then? It's a horrible option, but then so is destroying the economy and fabric of society through lockdown. There are probably other options in the middle. It feels right now like doctors and hospital administrators are saying "we've decided to do this one thing. It probably won't work, but we've a notion that if everybody completely changes their whole way of life for extended period of time we might just get away with it", and the politicians are saying "right, let me draft these daft notions into legislation and ignore hundreds of years of development because, well, it's common sense isn't it?"
 

Yew

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All lives matter, but in relation to the what the pandemic is doing to the health service, the lives that matter are all those who cannot receive the care/treatments/operations that they would normally have, because of covid patients taking up the occupancy. As well as the lives of all doctors, nurses, care workers and medical staff who have a much heavier workload and having to work in a very stressful and upsetting environment.
Interesting how you failed to mention the lives of those who are suffering mental health issues caused the abusive behaviour of the government, who are terrified for the jobs and businesses that might not survive these unproven and harmful measures. Or the lives of children and students who have missed masses of their education. All for experimental measures that haven't been proven to be effective, and nobody was recommending before 2020.
 

Bantamzen

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I am sorry but I don’t agree it’s emotive. It’s realistic. At my local hospital (Antrim Area) we had 15 ambulances in the car park for over 12 hours recently, each with a patient needing admitted, because there were no beds available within the building due to Covid. (New patients have to be isolated in single rooms for 24 hours to determine whether they are covid free. This creates a major pinchpoint in the system). The hospital director was interviewed on TV on the point of tears at the severity of the situation.
So they've created a pinchpoint, but do they actually need to isolate in single rooms for 24 hours?

I know quite a few medical professionals here in Ireland and they are all in agreement that the more we mix the more it spreads. They also agree that hospitals across Ireland are at saturation point, plus the staff who work in them are exhausted. The other evening a colleague who is an off duty nurse got a text asking her to come in for work because they were overwhelmed at Altnagelvin Hospital in Londonderry.
This is not news, of course the virus spreads when people interact. The problem is that to completely stop it you have to stop all interactions, not just ones politicians and their experts can stomach.

That’s where we are. The professionals nearly all seem to agree that restricting people’s movement is essential to reducing the disease’s spread. Do you have a different solution?
Yes some (not necessarily all) agree that keeping people locked up reduces the spread. But have they consulted the virus on what sort of timescale will be effective? I ask because viruses have this nasty habit of not taking much notice of what experts say. Yes you could lock everyone up for say a couple of months, but what happens afterwards. The virus isn't just going to throw up it's protein spikes in despair and give up, it will bubble under the surface until we climb from behind our collective couch and spread again. Indeed worse still whilst the initially dominant variants get lockdown suppressed, new more transmittable variants might just be evolving and waiting in the wings.

Lockdowns are a political solution to a biological problem. Unless they are strictly & completely adhered to, i.e. all but zero interactions, no shops, no hospitals etc, then it is literally an exercise in kicking the can down the road. I would have thought that after a year of failed lockdown after failed lockdown that would have been obvious to the experts advising governments around the world, sadly I was wrong. It seems face saving is way more important than pragmatic solutions to them. Perhaps they have been spending too much time hanging around politicians?
 

initiation

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having to work in a very stressful and upsetting environment.
What about those suffering stress and anxiety due to the lockdown and economic pressures? Or do only doctors and nurses count? People couldn't receive usual levels of care over the summer either and covid patients weren't taking up beds then.

Perhaps you can point to a cost-benefit analysis of the current lockdown? If lockdowns are so overwhelmingly positive then it should be easy to calculate. Surely such intrusive measures wouldn't be introduced without one?

I note you also ignore original point you raised on research on invasive vs less invasive NPIs

abusive behaviour of the government
This. It is not disimilar to domestic abuse. We are in the "it's all your fault, just follow my rules" stage at the moment.
 

Philip

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Right, so one option is just to not let the Covid patients into hospitals then? It's a horrible option, but then so is destroying the economy and fabric of society through lockdown. There are probably other options in the middle. It feels right now like doctors and hospital administrators are saying "we've decided to do this one thing. It probably won't work, but we've a notion that if everybody completely changes their whole way of life for extended period of time we might just get away with it", and the politicians are saying "right, let me draft these daft notions into legislation and ignore hundreds of years of development because, well, it's common sense isn't it?"

It's a temporary lockdown, probably going to last not much more than a month from now despite the pessimists' theories. Not letting people with serious cases of covid into hospitals will result in many dying, many with long term organ damage and many individuals/families having to grieve the loss of loved ones having watched them die in a horrific way. The former is the lesser of two evils.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

What about those suffering stress and anxiety due to the lockdown and economic pressures? Or do only doctors and nurses count? People couldn't receive usual levels of care over the summer either and covid patients weren't taking up beds then.

Perhaps you can point to a cost-benefit analysis of the current lockdown? If lockdowns are so overwhelmingly positive then it should be easy to calculate. Surely such intrusive measures wouldn't be introduced without one?

I note you also ignore original point you raised on research on invasive vs less invasive NPIs


This. It is not disimilar to domestic abuse. We are in the "it's all your fault, just follow my rules" stage at the moment.

This isn't the time or the place for research, research will come once we're over this pandemic (as a result of vaccination) as to how better to prepare if there another one. Until vaccination is progressed sufficiently then the only solution is snap and potentially strict measures whenever the health service is at risk of becoming overwhelmed as it is now.
 

Yew

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It's a temporary lockdown, probably going to last not much more than a month from now despite the pessimists' theories.
That puts us at around 6 months now? that's 30 Million years of human life wasted in lockdown, Even the wildest predictions don't suggest that the number of people dying will accumulate to that amount of life-years.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

This isn't the time or the place for research, research will come once we're over this pandemic (as a result of vaccination) as to how better to prepare if there another one. Until vaccination is progressed sufficiently then the only solution is snap and potentially strict measures whenever the health service is at risk of becoming overwhelmed as it is now.
Again, you assume the measures are effective, but do not provide evidence that they are.
 

MikeWM

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This. It is not disimilar to domestic abuse. We are in the "it's all your fault, just follow my rules" stage at the moment.

Exactly. As I've pointed out before, once you see this it is very hard to see it as anything else.

Here's a nice chart. I think we're at 15/15, which rather proves the point.

1610542621696.png
 

takno

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It's a temporary lockdown, probably going to last not much more than a month from now despite the pessimists' theories. Not letting people with serious cases of covid into hospitals will result in many dying, many with long term organ damage and many individuals/families having to grieve the loss of loved ones having watched them die in a horrific way. The former is the lesser of two evils.

This isn't the time or the place for research, research will come once we're over this pandemic (as a result of vaccination) as to how better to prepare if there another one. Until vaccination is progressed sufficiently then the only solution is snap and potentially strict measures whenever the health service is at risk of becoming overwhelmed as it is now.
You can surely see though that you have made a value judgement on what constitutes the lesser of two evils? What's more you've done that based on an assumption that the lockdown will work, and a lot of value judgements you've made on behalf of other people about how damaging the lockdown will be for them.

In practice, a lot of people have died anyway, and a lot of people are going into hospital and even intensive care who would likely get through it without medical intervention. That's not to say that medical intervention is a waste of time, it's more saying that there's a lot to balance here, and your "common sense" isn't a useful guide.
 

kristiang85

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There are multiple threads I could put this in, but as this is the most active about lockdown efficacy, I'll put this here, albeit based on UK data rather than Ireland (but I presume the picture is very similar).

I came across this today - it really does highlight how skewed the priorities are.


Round figure economic deprivation estimates based on Marmot review (e.g. figures 2.3 and 2.5). The figure for post 2008 increase is right at the lower end of what is implied by Marmot. Round figure Covid estimates based on ONS lifetable and covid death by age data, a 0.6% IFR, 80% herd immunity fraction and 1 life year co-morbidity adjustment, and the assumption of minimal mitigation only to avoid complete health system collapse: since the latter assumes less mitigation than anyone is proposing the figure is an upper bound. (See first image below)

Here is one reason why the above could be worrying: a comparison with the economic shock of the 2008 crisis, based on ONS data... (see second image below)

So, in words, we require the current economic shock, which is much larger than 2008, to result in much smaller life loss than was associated with 2008. Otherwise we will lose more life to the economic effects of Covid-19 suppression efforts than were ever likely to have been lost to Covid-19 itself. Of course the consequences of the 2008 crisis were amplified by the policies adopted thereafter, and perhaps those consequences could have been substantially alleviated by a more enlightened approach. But the historical record from the UK does not suggest a willingness to vote for such an approach, even if any sort of credible plan for avoiding the economic life loss were actually to be proposed. The 1945 election was perhaps the exception, but it's unclear that several months stuck at home on your sofa really leads to the same sort of cathartic re-evaluation of life's priorities as storming the beaches of Normandy.

Given that COVID-19 presents a rather low risk to most people in economically active age groups, and is generally a higher risk in retired age groups, it is questionable that one-size-fits-all measures requiring substantial economic contraction are a sensible policy response. Targetted measures based on people's vulnerability would give a better chance of saving the old from SARS-CoV-2 and the young from the very large health effects likely to be caused by historically large economic shocks: that is of minimising the covid crisis related life loss from all causes, in the long run.

From the data on life loss associated with economic hardship and economic shocks in the past, it is hard to see that a more balanced targetted approach would not save substantially more life than lockdowns (nuking your house will put an end to your rat infestation, no question, but a more nuanced approach might cause you fewer long term problems). If it is 'impossible' to differentially protect the old, in particular, then the age specific infection rates reported in the ONS infection survey data take some explaining (this is not cherry picking: the ONS data are the main source of direct measurement of infection). Similarly a scientific case that very stringent restrictions are the only way forward does need to also explain the Swedish data, rather than treating Sweden as some sort of discardable outlier (it needs a bit more than a lazy argument about population density, given the densities in Swedish cities).

It also seems that we are willing to pay much more to save a life from COVID-19 than from other causes. The usual NICE affordability threshold is around £30,000 per life year saved. OBR projected peak extra borrowing of £660B suggests at least 7 times that for COVID-19 ( here is an atempt to discuss this issue in more detail). Finally, there has been quite alot of slightly odd comparison with previous pandemics in the media. Here is a visualization comparing the severity of three pandemics.

I can't comment on the newly emerging concerns about `long covid' due to a lack of data on this. However it seems clear that these concerns should be weighed carefully against the effects of economic deprivation, insecurity and unemployment on health. There are data on these effects: they are very substantial.

I've bolded the bit I found particularly shocking.
 

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That's probably what people who killed cats to try to stop the Black Death thought too. Unfortunately when the evidence was finally looked at, it had actually made things much worse.

Plague was spread by body lice and fleas, not by rats so killing the cats made no difference. However the sacrifice made in the village of Eyam in Derbyshire undoubtedly saved 100s of thousands of lives..
 

Philip

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Interesting how you failed to mention the lives of those who are suffering mental health issues caused the abusive behaviour of the government, who are terrified for the jobs and businesses that might not survive these unproven and harmful measures. Or the lives of children and students who have missed masses of their education. All for experimental measures that haven't been proven to be effective, and nobody was recommending before 2020.
Interesting how you failed to mention the lives of those who are suffering mental health issues caused the abusive behaviour of the government, who are terrified for the jobs and businesses that might not survive these unproven and harmful measures. Or the lives of children and students who have missed masses of their education. All for experimental measures that haven't been proven to be effective, and nobody was recommending before 2020.

I think we would have a far bigger mental health crisis if we didn't have restrictions for the reasons I have outlined. It is a no win situation in many ways. And some people on here like to use extreme terminology like 'lockdown enthusiasts'; I am not that nor do I like or particularly want lockdown, but I see it as necessary until the pressure on the NHS eases. Lockdown in Spring was the biggest reason for the fall in cases, not the weather as some like to say. If you want proof of how full hospitals are currently, look at the NHS statistics page for admission and occupancy.
 

kristiang85

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Lockdown in Spring was the biggest reason for the fall in cases, not the weather as some like to say.

The curve for spring is the classic gompertz and doesn't not seem to have been affected by the interventions; it was naturally peaking in early April anyway.

If it wasn't the weather/seasonality/natural course of the virus, then why did cases not go up when restrictions were relaxed?

Also, to bring up Sweden again (sorry to do that, but they are the only 'control' I can use), with no lockdown in spring the curve shape was very similar, actually peaking around the same time as us.

But obviously do point me towards research that shows otherwise, though, in case I've missed something.

I think we would have a far bigger mental health crisis if we didn't have restrictions for the reasons I have outlined.

I need to respectfully disagree. Yes people directly affected would be in an awful situation, but right now it is the whole country exposed to that risk of crisis.

Those who are being affected by lockdowns and the side effects are in a bad way.

Even many of those who are vehemently pro-lockdown are clearly affected by the fear the government has put out, and it will take them a long time to live normally again.

I wouldn't be surprised if 75-80% of the country - at the very least - has some kind of mental health issue right now caused directly by the lockdown strategy.
 

Domh245

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I think we would have a far bigger mental health crisis if we didn't have restrictions for the reasons I have outlined.

I fail to see how the grieving of a small portion of the population is less of a "mental health crisis" than disrupting everyone's lives for a year (and that's best case, at worst people losing jobs, businesses, etc which will be a far bigger hit), assuming that's way you refer to
 

Philip

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I fail to see how the grieving of a small portion of the population is less of a "mental health crisis" than disrupting everyone's lives for a year (and that's best case, at worst people losing jobs, businesses, etc which will be a far bigger hit), assuming that's way you refer to

Many more people dying or becoming seriously ill with other diseases/ailments because they can't receive treatment as a result of a health service overwhelmed by coronavirus, and the suffering this causes for their families, friends and all who work in the care and health service. I see this as a bigger threat to people's mental health than a lockdown lasting a couple of months. If you cut interactions, you cut transmission and thus cut those requiring hospital treatment. I'm not dismissive of the effect of lockdown on people's mental health and livelihood. But right now preventing the health service from grinding to a halt is essential. I have said before that I don't think lockdown should go on any longer than absolutely necessary, and that is when the NHS is no longer at a tipping point for capacity.

The curve for spring is the classic gompertz and doesn't not seem to have been affected by the interventions; it was naturally peaking in early April anyway.

If it wasn't the weather/seasonality/natural course of the virus, then why did cases not go up when restrictions were relaxed?

Also, to bring up Sweden again (sorry to do that, but they are the only 'control' I can use), with no lockdown in spring the curve shape was very similar, actually peaking around the same time as us.

But obviously do point me towards research that shows otherwise, though, in case I've missed something.



I need to respectfully disagree. Yes people directly affected would be in an awful situation, but right now it is the whole country exposed to that risk of crisis.

Those who are being affected by lockdowns and the side effects are in a bad way.

Even many of those who are vehemently pro-lockdown are clearly affected by the fear the government has put out, and it will take them a long time to live normally again.

I wouldn't be surprised if 75-80% of the country - at the very least - has some kind of mental health issue right now caused directly by the lockdown strategy.

The facts here are either conveniently twisted, or inaccurate. Cases had by no means peaked when lockdown 1 was implemented; it was a good couple of weeks afterwards when cases peaked in the run up to the Easter weekend and this correlated well with the impact of lockdown being implemented.

The warmer Spring and Summer weather undoubtedly helped in bringing cases down and helped more so in keeping cases low through Summer. But this was further helped by schools not being open and the social distancing measures/covid safe zones that had been implemented in preparation for hospitality reopening in the Summer.
 
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kristiang85

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Many more people dying or becoming seriously ill with other diseases/ailments because they can't receive treatment as a result of a health service overwhelmed by coronavirus, and the suffering this causes for their families, friends and all who work in the care and health service.

But many people this year have not been getting treatment with the health service, even in the summer when it was relatively empty, due to being scared or discouraged. This causes suffering for them, their friends, and families. I know of many examples of avoidable pain caused by this. Not to mention the extra hassle of getting appointments to be seen by your GP (usually it's telephone first, even if it is something that has to be physically diagnosed). Lots of elective surgery is also delayed and cancelled, which also causes stress. There has been a consistent rise in deaths at home from conditions that aren't COVID, as is clearly seen here: https://fingertips.phe.org.uk/stati...d-week-ending-04-Dec-2020.html#place-of-death

I see this as a bigger threat to people's mental health than a lockdown lasting a couple of months. If you cut interactions, you cut transmission and thus cut those requiring hospital treatment. I'm not dismissive of the effect of lockdown on people's mental health and livelihood. But right now preventing the health service from grinding to a halt is essential. I have said before that I don't think lockdown should go on any longer than absolutely necessary, and that is when the NHS is no longer at a tipping point for capacity.

The lockdowns and restrictions have been going on nearly a year now - not a couple of months. I agreed with the first lockdown for precisely the reasons you state, and it was meant to be a short sharp and exceptional solution. Now we are on Lockdown 3, and there has been no respite in many restrictions since last March. Many people have not been able to see relatives in care homes, let alone hug them, all year.

The NHS has been at these tipping points in the past, and it was horrible for all invovled, but it did not cause a national mental health crisis like lockdowns do. A year ago the idea of a lockdown for bad winter respiratory virus would have been laughed off because it is just verging on inhuman to do that to a mostly healthy population.

The facts here are either conveniently twisted, or inaccurate.

How so? As I said, feel free to post data which says otherwise.

Cases had by no means peaked when lockdown 1 was implemented; it was a good couple of weeks afterwards when cases peaked in the run up to the Easter weekend and this correlated well with the impact of lockdown being implemented.

I don't go off cases, as these are very much dependant on the testing numbers, and this was ramped up throughout April, but as no data on this is recorded until late April I don't trust any assumptions that can be made from looking at that. So I made the point looking at deaths, as the recording of these was a bit more accurate back then in terms of actual COVID deaths. Peak deaths were the 8th April: https://coronavirus.data.gov.uk/details/deaths It is generally accepted that there is a three week lag between diagnosis and death, and if you assume that you need to add an extra 5 days before the diagnosis that would mean the infection to death period is 26 days, thus the peak infections were around 13th March. This is well before lockdown measures kicked in, which in turn would have their own lag.

The warmer Spring and Summer weather undoubtedly helped in bringing cases down and helped more so in keeping cases low through Summer. But this was further helped by schools not being open and the social distancing measures/covid safe zones that had been implemented in preparation for hospitality reopening in the Summer.

So if the hospitality was safe back then, why destroy so many businesses by locking them down now? (esepcially when so many had set up effective outdoor areas for people to eat/drink safely). And indeed schools being on holidays did help, as evidenced by the resurgance when they went back. It is what naturally happens every year with all respiratory viruses, and this one is no different. It is due to how viruses work and the weather. Lockdowns do not affect this.
 

Domh245

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Many more people dying or becoming seriously ill with other diseases/ailments because they can't receive treatment as a result of a health service overwhelmed by coronavirus, and the suffering this causes for their families, friends
Even assuming that the NHS was overrun (I'm not convinced it's as inevitable as people make it out to be) and we did see a huge rise in the number of deaths, that would still only affect a small portion of the population, and of course grieving, whilst not exactly pleasant, is an entirely natural part of life and is well understood and supported. Hell, in some senses, the old adage about 'one death being a tragedy, thousands a statistic' would even factor - I know I'd personally feel a lot less sad about if my grandma was one of tens of thousands who lost their life to covid, than if she died because of a cancelled cancer operation.

I really fail to see how that is worse than plunging the entire population into deep anxiety and worse.

and all who work in the care and health service.
This is a very real problem however, and one that I really don't know how to solve, no matter what steps we take. I was listening to a previous episode of the private eye podcast, and Dr Phil Hammond (their medical correspondent) made a very impassioned plea to stop calling healthcare workers heroes, as it mentally builds them up to try and save every patient, with inevitable consequences for their mental health when nature wins. Indeed, stories this morning about this suggested the mental health of healthcare workers has taken a pretty severe battering, it'll be doubly tough in a few years when they're inundated with cancer patients who could have been saved had they not been denied treatment

I see this as a bigger threat to people's mental health than a lockdown lasting a couple of months. If you cut interactions, you cut transmission and thus cut those requiring hospital treatment. You might need additional research to back this up, I don't and importantly neither does the government.
It's not a couple of months though. We've been living under various restrictions (or threat of) for nigh on a year now, and without any real end in sight still. I don't disagree that cutting interactions ultimately cuts the amount of people needing hospitalisation for this disease, I just remain unconvinced that the 'cure' of lockdowns is better than the disease on a population level

That's also a pretty alarming (unintentional?) slip of the tongue there - a government imposing these sort of restrictions without evidence is pretty terrifying as a concept
 

MikeWM

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Plague was spread by body lice and fleas, not by rats so killing the cats made no difference.

It seems opinion is divided between 'the cats killed the rats who carried the fleas, so it made things worse' and that it didn't make any difference. I can't find anyone who suggests it helped, however.

However the sacrifice made in the village of Eyam in Derbyshire undoubtedly saved 100s of thousands of lives..

If we had an untreatable disease with an IFR of around 50%, you'd find I'd be as keen on restrictions as the next person. This disease is very very far away from that, however.
 

Philip

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You only have to look at places like India, Florida and Mexico to see that this is more than just a typical winter respiratory virus. These places have seen the virus surge even in hot weather.

Here in the UK, the surge in second wave cases started in August/September which is hardly a 'cool' time of year; transmission was accelerating in some areas in the very hot first half of August with soft restrictions in place at the time. On the other hand, transmission was decelerating nearly everywhere in the cooler April/May when lockdown was in place.

I say a lot of this is to do with people's behaviour. When hospitality reopened in July, people were more careful and more considerate towards social distancing. Yes the weather helped, but I believe a bigger reason for the low case numbers was down to people's behaviour at the time.
 
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Mag_seven

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Can I remind posters this thread is for the discussion of the lockdown in Ireland.

Please use another thread or start a new one of you wish to discuss the lockdown situation in any other country.
 

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I say a lot of this is to do with people's behaviour. When hospitality reopened in July, people were more careful and more considerate towards social distancing. Yes the weather helped, but I believe a bigger reason for the low case numbers was down to people's behaviour at the time.
While what you say above is correct, July was six months ago, and since then the public have (understandably in my opinion)
simply grown weary and fed up of the never ending onslaught of restrictions, tiers and lockdowns, which is why they are nowhere
near as compliant today.

In fact I clearly remember Chris Whitty explaining last March that getting the timing/duration of lockdowns right
is critical because 'lockdown fatigue' would set in after a few weeks. So when countries like Ireland repeatedly
try to impose strict and lengthy lockdowns, they are going to find it harder and harder to keep the public
on side each time
which leads to a vicious circle of stricter restrictions and falling compliance.

This is nothing to do with people being "selfish" or "inconsiderate" as you seem to be claiming - it's just basic human nature!






MARK
 
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Skimpot flyer

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No, I'm saying the behaviour of some people contributed towards the rise in infections and so restrictions had to be tightened/lockdown brought in to stop this rise and the subsequent increased load on the health service. Early signs (at least by the last 3 days) are that this approach is working with cases falling. I would imagine the same thing applies for Ireland.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==



No one could have prepared for a pandemic like this, it is unprecedented and the last time anything like this was seen was in 1918. I'd be surprised if we had many pre-pandemic plans in place based on experience of the 1918 pandemic...
Did they record all deaths where flu was present in the deceased as flu deaths, despite actually dying from cancer, stroke, cardiac arrest or any other cause?
An estimated 200,000 deaths in the U.K. at a time when the population
39,582,000.
So based on today’s estimated 68m, that would be about 343,000 deaths, pro-rata.
As for the NHS being potentially overwhelmed with cases of respiratory viruses in Winter... I’m struggling to find a recent winter where this has NOT been the case!
This crisis is due to chronic underfunding of the NHS by governments of all colours in the UK. The first lockdown was to buy time, yet what was done, really? No investment, a laughing-stock test and trace scheme, no closure of external borders, no testing of arriving passengers, no compulsory quarantine at requisitioned hotels (like Australia did). An utter shambles!
 

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Solent&Wessex

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From personal observation here in Northern Ireland (where the numbers are also high) I know lots of people who have been visiting their neighbours in breach of the rules. I suspect that’s replicated across all parts of this island. The issue seems to be, not whether lockdowns can work – they will if followed properly – but compliance and enforcing them.

If we accept the premise that lockdowns work and are necessary, then we should also accept they cannot last for a long time without alternative solutions.

Back in early March 2020 in the UK Whitty and Valance were saying that the timing of lockdowns were important to prevent "lockdown fatigue".

That appears to be exactly what we are seeing by reducing compliance both in Ireland and the UK, as you refer to. Humans are social creatures and to deny social interaction with friends and family and loved ones for nearly a year or longer is not going to work.
 

102 fan

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I am sorry but I don’t agree it’s emotive. It’s realistic. At my local hospital (Antrim Area) we had 15 ambulances in the car park for over 12 hours recently, each with a patient needing admitted, because there were no beds available within the building due to Covid. (New patients have to be isolated in single rooms for 24 hours to determine whether they are covid free. This creates a major pinchpoint in the system). The hospital director was interviewed on TV on the point of tears at the severity of the situation.


I know quite a few medical professionals here in Ireland and they are all in agreement that the more we mix the more it spreads. They also agree that hospitals across Ireland are at saturation point, plus the staff who work in them are exhausted. The other evening a colleague who is an off duty nurse got a text asking her to come in for work because they were overwhelmed at Altnagelvin Hospital in Londonderry.


That’s where we are. The professionals nearly all seem to agree that restricting people’s movement is essential to reducing the disease’s spread. Do you have a different solution?


I have heard that patients are treated on the ambulance, as admission to hospital practically guarantees Covid infection.

And, have you forgotten the headlines we have every Winter about 'Insert hospital name here' under crisis, waiting 12 hrs etc?
 
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