Did Inter City stop at St Albans in the timetable

[Dore & Totley]

Good evening .Tried searching on the web but to no avail. I remember as a kid in the late seventies watching at St Albans and seeing a loco hauled Inter City going north stop at St Albans and some passengers get off. Does anyone know if this was a scheduled train or an off timetable stop?

 

[gazthomas]

Yes, some information posted a while ago here:

http://uk.railway.narkive.com/ZFteWD3I/why-does-st-albans-have-no-intercity-service

St Albans stops on the St Pancras - Leicester stopping trains were introduced about 1970. ISTR the stops were withdrawn when the 'Bedpan' electrification came in...

Suburban stops by long distance trains often result in short distance
overcrowding. It can be best to stop at the terminus of the suburban service
(thus Luton or Bedford) so giving connections from all suburban stations.
The demand at St Albans is obviously very much greater towards London, or to
other Thameslink stations, than northwards to stations beyond Bedford.

Basically Thameslink killed it off.

 

[Dore & Totley]

Cheers for that. Would be good if they still did. Much better interchange for Elstree.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

Way back - basically hourly - anything like this now would be stampeded by SAC commuters doing a Luton or a Bedford to avoid GTR......

Basically - no chance ....regrettably.

 

[hooverboy]

Good evening .Tried searching on the web but to no avail. I remember as a kid in the late seventies watching at St Albans and seeing a loco hauled Inter City going north stop at St Albans and some passengers get off. Does anyone know if this was a scheduled train or an off timetable stop?

I remember these!...it was a pretty regular scheduled stop
it use to be st pancras-st albans-luton-bedford-wellingborough-kettering(sometimes terminate)- market harborough-leicester.

 

[Mutant Lemming]

Am fairly sure I recall HSTs calling there - seems like a recent thing but was probably over 30 years ago

 

[hooverboy]

Am fairly sure I recall HSTs calling there - seems like a recent thing but was probably over 30 years ago

back in the 70's/80's it was usually class 45 haulage,but you did get the odd 31 or pair of 25's.
HST's when they were introduced mostly did the fast runs to nottingham+sheffield(47 hauled stock also). from st p they would stop at luton or bedford then direct to leicester and beyond.

 

[AM9]

Way back - basically hourly - anything like this now would be stampeded by SAC commuters doing a Luton or a Bedford to avoid GTR......

Basically - no chance ....regrettably.

Even if the outer suburban commuters didn't (or weren't allowed to) use capacity intended for longer distance travellers, stopping an inter-city train every hour at St Albans would cripple so many paths as to severely reduce the line's capacity. There's enough fuss made by some MML users here about the class 700 fasts stopping on their tracks.
A station doesn't qualify for an 'Inter-City' service just because is in a city.

 

[Triumph]

The main reason they called there was due to the fact that there were only 2 local trains an hour (off peak) from St Pancras to Bedford one all stations and one first stop SAC. This gave SAC 2 fast services from London. A bit different to 8-10 trains an hour now! When they run.

 

[ashworth]

I remember these!...it was a pretty regular scheduled stop
it use to be st pancras-st albans-luton-bedford-wellingborough-kettering(sometimes terminate)- market harborough-leicester.

Certainly during the 1970’s they ran beyond Kettering and Leicester. There was an hourly semi fast from St. Pancras which ran alternate hours to Nottingham and Derby. There was also an hourly St Pancras to Sheffield which ran non stop to Leicester then ran alternate hours via Nottingham or Derby to Sheffield. The semi fast used to stop for about 15 minutes in Leicester where it was overtaken by the fast providing cross platform connections.

 

[BrianB]

In the 60s and 70s, when the MML was more clockface but less frequent, there were basically 2 IC departures an hour from St Pancras. The xx00 ran hourly fast to Leicester continuing every 2 hours alternatively via Derby or Nottingham to Sheffield. The xx30 ran hourly semi-fast to Leicester calling at St Albans, Luton, Bedford, Wellingborough, Kettering and Market Harborough, continuing from Leicester every 2 hours to either Derby or Nottingham. At Leicester the semi-fast would sit for about 15 minutes for cross-platform interchange: the semi-fast Derby would arrive, be overtaken by the fast Sheffield via Nottingham which would then depart first, followed by the Derby. On the opposite hour the order was reversed, that way both Derby and Nottingham could be reached hourly by the fast, albeit with a change. With 1 change at Leicester all the smaller towns also got an hourly service to Sheffield.

Edit - what Ashworth said in a nutshell while I was still typing....

 

[Mag_seven]

Whenever I travel through St Albans I almost convince myslef that EMT stop there for some strange reason - I know that they don't but it just "feels right" that they do for no apparent reason.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

Whenever I travel through St Albans I almost convince myslef that EMT stop there for some strange reason - I know that they don't but it just "feels right" that they do for no apparent reason.

The last time was in the height of the post Hatfield accident and the huge numbers of speed restrictions. From October - December , Thameslink just ran on the slow lines to Moorgate with an all stations service throughout the day (as frequent as 8 tph in the high peak) , operationally that worked quite well as there were not many ESR's on the slows - leaving the fast lines to MML ,whose journey patterns and patronage were destroyed. MML virtually had no traffic , and thus stopped some (can't remember how many) trains at St Albans giving the very rare and never since repeated option of 1st class service with free tea , and on some cases 4 seats to oneself.

Out of desperation - MML asked for some paths on the slow lines , but were refused (comment being that they generally wanted the fast lines to themselves - so they got them !!! - without functionality)

Bad era - but great for the inners as they had a very lavish service , albeit crushed in the peak. South of the river there were services from Blackfriars to the usual suspects.

 

[AM9]

... Out of desperation - MML asked for some paths on the slow lines , but were refused (comment being that they generally wanted the fast lines to themselves - so they got them !!! - without functionality) ...

My comment related to the lament that no such service operates today. The fact that demand for 'inner' and 'outer' capacity has removed any chance of MML using the slows is read. The demand is high enough to mandate about half of the fasts as well (as far as Harpenden) and that assumes very short dwells at St Albans. Some here have commented that the fasts shouldn't be there but as you have said before, the volume determines which services take the finite track resource. As an occasional user, I would quite like the luxury of 17 minutes on IC coaches to St Pancras (even if I had to walk to the TL platforms) for onward travel, but times change. Even if a service did still exist, I assume that it would be barred to any GTR-only ticketholders and possibly set down and pick up restrictions would also come into play, ala Watford Junction even in BR days.

 

[eastwestdivide]

In the 1978 timetable, the St Albans stop was basically every 2 hours, being the StP-Derby semi-fast (St Albans, Luton, Bed, Well, Kett, MH, Leic, Lough, Long Eaton, Derby)
The alternate hours semi-fast to Nottingham had fewer stops, generally missing St Albans and MH).
At that time, the local DMUs (127s) from St Pancras were half-hourly in the basic off-peak service, one being first stop Elstree and then all stations to Bedford, the other being all stations StP-Luton
Sunday mornings, you had the novelty of the 0750 St P-Manchester, calling at St Albans, a service that was always good for engineering diversions, including over the Woodhead in its last year of operation.

When I was spotting at Leicester in 1981, the StP-Derby semi-fasts were pretty much always a 45/1 (ETH Peak) with Mk1 coaches, while the remaining IC services out of St P were a 45/1 Mk2 aircons with a Mk1 catering car (including the Nottingham semi-fasts as well as the Sheffields). You did get the occasional 47/4 instead of the 45/1.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

My comment related to the lament that no such service operates today. The fact that demand for 'inner' and 'outer' capacity has removed any chance of MML using the slows is read. The demand is high enough to mandate about half of the fasts as well (as far as Harpenden) and that assumes very short dwells at St Albans. Some here have commented that the fasts shouldn't be there but as you have said before, the volume determines which services take the finite track resource. As an occasional user, I would quite like the luxury of 17 minutes on IC coaches to St Pancras (even if I had to walk to the TL platforms) for onward travel, but times change. Even if a service did still exist, I assume that it would be barred to any GTR-only ticketholders and possibly set down and pick up restrictions would also come into play, ala Watford Junction even in BR days.

Agreed - I was only referring to a one off period , rather a long time ago. (in passing with a large tree on the down fast overheads last week , (blocking Radlett to Harpenden) , it was odd to see EMT gingerly traversing the slow lines for a few hours)

Noticeable how well loaded the "few" Thameslink Expresses are (the ones that do SAC / LTN / Bedford) - they take a while to clear the passengers off at SAC ....

I tried this tack formally with various Network Rail led meetings on route planning (when I had a job) , and despite the very obvious capacity and planning issues - Thameslink had no interest (fear of revenue abstraction) , and "MML" likewise - not much interest IMHO in anything south of Wellinborough , less so now I suspect.....

 

[John Webb]

Whenever I travel through St Albans I almost convince myslef that EMT stop there for some strange reason - I know that they don't but it just "feels right" that they do for no apparent reason.

Several months ago when there were problems, an EMT HST set stopped just south of the Down Fast platform waiting for the platform signal at the north end to clear rather than stop in the platform itself - there is a banner repeater so the driver knew when the signal cleared. I was one of several people working in the preserved St Albans South box that day and it seemed quite odd having a train stopped right outside the box!

We analysed the 1974-75 Working Timetable (WTT) in some detail prior to setting up our simulator in the box. Intercity trains that stopped at St Albans City station at that time were as follows (times at St Albans):
Up: 04:39 (Sheffield); 10:27, 11:20 (Derby); 12:09 (Manchester); 14:09 (Derby); 15:06, 17:06 (Nottingham); 18:25 (Derby); 22.59 Manchester.
Down: 04:44, 08:50, 10:50, 12:50, 14:50, 19:50, 20:40 (all for Derby) the last of these trains is noted in the WTT as 'Mails'.

(See www.sigbox.co.uk for more info on our preserved box)

 

[70014IronDuke]

Am fairly sure I recall HSTs calling there - seems like a recent thing but was probably over 30 years ago

HSTs did call there, or rather, one up (late evening) and one down (morning, something around 09.00 IIRC) a day called. This was early 90s.

This was a 'remaindered' service - kind of left over from the days of the 45s+7 Mk1s. Originally - taking the 1966 timetable (following WCML electrification) the MML semi-fasts did not call at St Albans. (At least not in general, there may have been the odd one that did.) As the post by Peter Masson cites, somewhere around 1970 or perhaps 71, BR decided to introduce regular stops there for the semi-fasts, except in peak hours - so around 1615 - 18.30 or so, most down semi-fasts were first stop Bedford after St Pancras.
EDIT - I've just looked up the service for summer 1996. By then, not only had the St Albans stop been dropped, St Albans itself no longer appeared as a station in Table 53.

AIRI, both St Albans and Harpenden used to appear in the old BR timetable, even though no Inter-City trains ever stopped at the latter station. It was just considered important enough to show connecting trains.

I think the real reason for introducing the stop was poor loadings: yes, they wanted to improve the St Albans-St Pancras service, but in general the semi-fasts loaded poorly outside the peaks.

I have a memory of reading a very positive article in Rail News maybe six months after the stops were introduced saying how popular the new service was with St Albans' passengers.

I didn't follow changes in the 80s, but after Thameslink, and, I suspect, a combination of improved loadings on the semi-fasts during the day, plus the need to accelerate services where possible, the St Albans stops were discontinued - bar the one train each way. I think this lasted into the mid-90s.

I think this was fully justified, but, I do wonder if there is justification of what might be called "granny stops" * at places like St Albans and Huntingdon (which suffered a similar decline in Inter-City services). What I mean is, say, two up and two down Inter-City services stopping morning and afternoon could be justified in order to win those people who simply do not like/fear changing trains, but who could be tempted onto rail if only there were just a minimal service offered.

I suspect, however, that with privatisation, the TOCs involved are not interested in chasing any such small returns (if they exist) even if the timetabling/pathing issues could be solved for such odd calls.

* Of course, it would be a marketing disaster to call them 'granny stops' - this is just my term for the idea. And in view of the current thread about the Canadian comedienne, surely invalids (I'll call people that, I don't know what the current PC term is) would surely find such trains useful.

 

[Dore & Totley]

Thanks all. I wasn't going mad or convincing myself I was dreaming it.

 

[A0]

I think this was fully justified, but, I do wonder if there is justification of what might be called "granny stops" * at places like St Albans and Huntingdon (which suffered a similar decline in Inter-City services). What I mean is, say, two up and two down Inter-City services stopping morning and afternoon could be justified in order to win those people who simply do not like/fear changing trains, but who could be tempted onto rail if only there were just a minimal service offered.

I suspect, however, that with privatisation, the TOCs involved are not interested in chasing any such small returns (if they exist) even if the timetabling/pathing issues could be solved for such odd calls.

* Of course, it would be a marketing disaster to call them 'granny stops' - this is just my term for the idea. And in view of the current thread about the Canadian comedienne, surely invalids (I'll call people that, I don't know what the current PC term is) would surely find such trains useful.

The answer is NO - there is precisely no justification for such stops. It might pick up a penny number of passengers, but each stop adds 3-4 minutes to the journey - which for passengers to Nottingham or Leicester mounts up each time a stop is added.

For EMT or their successor - the obvious future pattern is for 2 tph fasts to stop at Luton Airport and Kettering (for interchange to the electrified services) and the electric Corby's serving one of the Luton stations, Bedford and then all stops to Corby.

 

[hooverboy]

The answer is NO - there is precisely no justification for such stops. It might pick up a penny number of passengers, but each stop adds 3-4 minutes to the journey - which for passengers to Nottingham or Leicester mounts up each time a stop is added.

For EMT or their successor - the obvious future pattern is for 2 tph fasts to stop at Luton Airport and Kettering (for interchange to the electrified services) and the electric Corby's serving one of the Luton stations, Bedford and then all stops to Corby.

if you have witnessed the scramble at st pancras thameslink for the fasts,I can guarantee you there's a market for st albans,luton,bedford(presumably wellingborough,kettering and corby come next emt franchise)

 

[ChiefPlanner]

There would be an immense London St Pancras to SAC take up (anything to avoid the ironing board seats and cramped legroom as mentioned endlessly before) , but probably a modest northbound flow towards the East Midlands from a verdant and leafy city (one here to placate a few people)

The reality is that SAC to Nottingham is comfortably below 2 hours by car , (door to door) - which by train is worse allowing for the change at Luton Airport Parkway and then a slow and overloaded 22x , not forgetting of course prudence in going for the train before you need to "secure" a connection.

So probably not worth the effort. Keep the status quo. (for now)

 

[Bald Rick]

It’s a possibility that the Corbys will call at St Albans post electrification. It will still be standing room only in the peak though.

 

[edwin_m]

Operator specific seasons and tickets could be adopted to manage overcrowding, as at Peterborough, and would be easy to enforce because of the separate barrier lines at St Pancras. However I agree there is little point in considering stops in anything going further than Corby, which if (big if) they get the timetable right will provide connections further north at Kettering. Alternatively some/all of the longer distance semi-fast services could continue to call at Luton Airport Parkway as there is a decent number of East Midlands passengers using the airport - there are already Thameslink-only tickets here to price people off EMT for London journeys.

 

[A0]

There would be an immense London St Pancras to SAC take up (anything to avoid the ironing board seats and cramped legroom as mentioned endlessly before) , but probably a modest northbound flow towards the East Midlands from a verdant and leafy city (one here to placate a few people)

The issue is those travelling from stations north of Bedford to Corby are paying *way* more relatively for season tickets than those south of. So giving nice new electric trains then adding SAC as a stop which will massively overcrowd them won't exactly go down well.

The reality is that SAC to Nottingham is comfortably below 2 hours by car , (door to door) - which by train is worse allowing for the change at Luton Airport Parkway and then a slow and overloaded 22x , not forgetting of course prudence in going for the train before you need to "secure" a connection.

So probably not worth the effort. Keep the status quo. (for now)

Well, it is below 2 hours by car IF the M1 is behaving and WHEN the M1 doesn't have mile upon mile of roadworks with 50 mph speed limits - which is what it's had quite extensively over the last couple of years and will be getting again very soon between Jn 13 and 16......

The MML isn't the fastest route, agreed, but the Meridians have sped things up. And if you're heading away from London in the morning and back from Nottingham in the afternoon, the trains are nowhere near as busy as going the opposite way.

None of this justifies stopping EMT services at SAC though.

 

[Beebman]

I remember standing on Platform 4 at SAC sometime in the mid-1980s when there was a back-lit departure indicator where the relevant station names would be illuminated according to the stopping points. On that day the sun was shining on the indicator in such a way that all the available station names were faintly visible. I definitely remember seeing Leeds and Carlisle among the available names but I somehow doubt that they ever needed to be used, certainly not Carlisle!

 

[ChiefPlanner]

The issue is those travelling from stations north of Bedford to Corby are paying *way* more relatively for season tickets than those south of. So giving nice new electric trains then adding SAC as a stop which will massively overcrowd them won't exactly go down well.



Well, it is below 2 hours by car IF the M1 is behaving and WHEN the M1 doesn't have mile upon mile of roadworks with 50 mph speed limits - which is what it's had quite extensively over the last couple of years and will be getting again very soon between Jn 13 and 16......

The MML isn't the fastest route, agreed, but the Meridians have sped things up. And if you're heading away from London in the morning and back from Nottingham in the afternoon, the trains are nowhere near as busy as going the opposite way.

None of this justifies stopping EMT services at SAC though.

I never actually said the new Corby electrics may stop at SAC (someone else did !) , in fact it would take away the potential for Luton and Bedford etc - though I think SAC does pay a premium for almost guaranteed standing on a fast train ...and has done for many years.

As for the M1 - I did frequent trips in the 50 mph long TSR periods , and you still made it comfortably in under 2 hours. Only quoted to show what the opposition mode is ......

 

[AM9]

I remember standing on Platform 4 at SAC sometime in the mid-1980s when there was a back-lit departure indicator where the relevant station names would be illuminated according to the stopping points. On that day the sun was shining on the indicator in such a way that all the available station names were faintly visible. I definitely remember seeing Leeds and Carlisle among the available names but I somehow doubt that they ever needed to be used, certainly not Carlisle!

That would be an interesting journey, SAC to Carlisle via the Settle-Carlisle (i.e. Midland Railway end to end.)

 

[edwin_m]

As for the M1 - I did frequent trips in the 50 mph long TSR periods , and you still made it comfortably in under 2 hours. Only quoted to show what the opposition mode is ......

I've encountered two delays exceeding two hours in the last couple of years and both of them were on the motorway, despite most of my travel being by train. And even if the motorway is quicker the train may win out for people who need to maximise their productive work time, don't have access to a car or just want to save the environment (though using a Voyager makes that one a bit debatable). However I agree there's little justification in stopping any long-distance trains at St Albans.

 

[Hadders]

Operator specific seasons andny Permitted tickets could be adopted to manage overcrowding, as at Peterborough, and would be easy to enforce because of the separate barrier lines at St Pancras.

GTR set the Any Permittted fare from SAC to London so would not be permitted to introduce a cheaper GTR only fare.
EMT could introduce EMT only fares but this would only increase crowding on the services you'd want people not to use.

At Peterborough it works because LNER sets the Any Permitted therefore GTR can introduce cheaper fares on their slower services.
Milton Keynes is a bit of an exception for day tickets (although not for season tickets) because Virgin historically priced the tickets (allowing Silverlink (as ws) to set up cheaper 'Silverlink only' fares). Silverlink then took over pricing for the Any Permitted fares allowing Virgin to introduce Virgin Only fares but Silverlink were allowed to keep their operator specific fares as a one-off.