Did 2-car 170s really run on the Midland Mainline?

[Archie810]

Moderator note: split from

Class 810 for East Midlands Railway Construction/Introduction Updates

Only going by what I’ve been told from my source, which was the date they had been told for handover (June), would not happen, but as we all know, many people say different things, or have not even been updated with the latest news. Thoroughly fair comment, old chap, and always good to compare...

www.railforums.co.uk

A good overview. Although the 170s appeared in the late nineties/early 00s, not the early nineties, and were of course woefully inadequate for the route.

2 car 170s between the East Midlands and London really?

 

[RailWonderer]

2 car 170s between the East Midlands and London really?

They did in the early days before the 222s arrived but it was 3 car and 4 car as seen below.

170102 170106 St Pancras

On the first day of full Class 170 service on the MML, 170102 + 170106 at London St Pancras on the 18:30 - Derby on 30/05/99.

www.flickr.com

 

[Archie810]

They did in the early days before the 222s arrived but it was 3 car and 4 car as seen below.

170102 170106 St Pancras

On the first day of full Class 170 service on the MML, 170102 + 170106 at London St Pancras on the 18:30 - Derby on 30/05/99.

www.flickr.com

that's a long journey to be stood in a crowded gangway

 

[43066]

2 car 170s between the East Midlands and London really?

The MML isn’t called the Cinderella line for nothing!

 

[LowLevel]

They did in the early days before the 222s arrived but it was 3 car and 4 car as seen below.

170102 170106 St Pancras

On the first day of full Class 170 service on the MML, 170102 + 170106 at London St Pancras on the 18:30 - Derby on 30/05/99.

www.flickr.com

There were plenty of 2 car workings.

 

[Trainman40083]

that's a long journey to be stood in a crowded gangway

The 170s tended to work the then recently introduced twice hourly service. I can't recall travelling on one that had a standing load....But then it always seemed to be two units too.

 

[TheBigD]

2 car 170s between the East Midlands and London really?

MML initially ordered 13 x 2 car 170s, quickly increased to 17 x 2 cars. 10 x center cars where then subsequently added, and finally 170397/8 were added before they went to Central Trains. Central Trains' 170503 was also hired to MML for a while.

The 2 car MML 170s seated 121 (24 1st / 97 standard) with 2+2 seating in both 1st and standard. The 3 cars were (21 1st / 143 std) with 1st class having far more comfortable 2+1 seating, and a buffet.

The initial enhanced timetable (1999?) saw a HST operate fast St Pancras to Leicester every half hour, hourly to both Nottingham and Sheffield. The 170 left 5 minutes later, called all stops to Leicester, then waited 15 minutes at Leicester for the following HST to overtake, before alternating to Derby and Nottingham. Only the 1000, 1630, and 1830 were 2 x 2 car sets initially, though other peak working were strengthened as the extra units arrived. There was also 2 services to Barnsley (1000 & 1630), and 1 service to Burton-on-Trent (1630). Beeston and Long Eaton also gained an all day hourly service to/from London.

As for loading, passenger numbers were a lot lower, and off peak, the 2 car services often had plenty of seats available initially, though traffic grew pretty quickly.

Additional infrastructure was also delivered to allow the new services to operate, a new down platform at Bedford, and doubling of Wigston Jn.

 

[Topological]

MML initially ordered 13 x 2 car 170s, quickly increased to 17 x 2 cars. 10 x center cars where then subsequently added, and finally 170397/8 were added before they went to Central Trains. Central Trains' 170503 was also hired to MML for a while.

The 2 car MML 170s seated 121 (24 1st / 97 standard) with 2+2 seating in both 1st and standard. The 3 cars were (21 1st / 143 std) with 1st class having far more comfortable 2+1 seating, and a buffet.

The initial enhanced timetable (1999?) saw a HST operate fast St Pancras to Leicester every half hour, hourly to both Nottingham and Sheffield. The 170 left 5 minutes later, called all stops to Leicester, then waited 15 minutes at Leicester for the following HST to overtake, before alternating to Derby and Nottingham. Only the 1000, 1630, and 1830 were 2 x 2 car sets initially, though other peak working were strengthened as the extra units arrived. There was also 2 services to Barnsley (1000 & 1630), and 1 service to Burton-on-Trent (1630). Beeston and Long Eaton also gained an all day hourly service to/from London.

As for loading, passenger numbers were a lot lower, and off peak, the 2 car services often had plenty of seats available initially, though traffic grew pretty quickly.

Additional infrastructure was also delivered to allow the new services to operate, a new down platform at Bedford, and doubling of Wigston Jn.

It always seemed to work.

I used to think that overtaking at Leicester plan was a good one for a longer distance line. It could even be brought back if EMUs perform the stopping role and 810s get used on faster services.

All off-topic, but does illustrate how demand has grown on the MML.

 

[stuu]

Yes, I remember doing Luton-Leicester in 1997, having never used the MML before, and being surprised at both a two car train and a free coffee in standard class

 

[Helvellyn]

2 car 170s between the East Midlands and London really?

I mean get hold of some late BR era InterCity timetables and the likes of Wellingborough, Kettering and Market Harborough had an off-peak service every 90 minutes, whilst Corby had nothing (its London service was restored under East Midlands Trains, largely with the ex-Hull Trains 4-car 222s).

Midland Mainline was a franchise where privatisation really grew the business - 14 HSTs quickly augmented with the Class 170s, which had to be strengthened and then they get replaced by the Class 222s.

 

[Sprinter107]

Im almost certain that as well as Burton and Barnsley, Matlock got a through train to London too upon the introduction of the 170s.

 

[TheBigD]

Im almost certain that as well as Burton and Barnsley, Matlock got a through train to London too upon the introduction of the 170s.

Matlock came a timetable or two later. 0730 ex STP on Saturdays and an afternoon return. Can't remember whether the set ran ecs or passenger to Derby in between.

 

[Sprinter107]

Thought there was a through train from Matlock at some point. I caught the Burton one a time or two.

 

[CaptainHaddock]

I remember it well as I was working in the Midland Mainline call centre in Sheffield round about that time.

One morning I came into work to find a press release from Head Office on each desk saying that rail user groups in Kettering and Wellingborough were distributing leaflets claiming MML were going to scrap all intermediate stops on the Sheffield-St Pancras HSTs after Leicester and replace them with dinky little two car Turbostar trains. We were told that if anyone rang up and asked about this to say that it was an unsubstantiated rumour and MML had no plans to do any such thing

At the next timetable change MML announced they were scrapping all intermediate stops on the Sheffield-St Pancras HSTs after Leicester and replacing them with dinky little two car Turbostar trains.

 

[stadler]

I remember quite a few journeys on single two coach 170s to and from London St Pancras in Midland Mainline days. They could get very overcrowded sometimes. They did run in six coach formations on busier services. I remember 2/3/4/5/6 coach formations were all used to London St Pancras so it depended on the service. I am not sure if anything longer was ever used. I do not seem to remember seven or eight coach formations ever happening so i think six was the maximum.

Personally i preferred the 170s to any of the current stock. They are actually really good trains. One of the best DMUs built. On the occasions when Midland Mainline ran long enough formations of 170s (to avoid overcrowding) they were actually really nice to travel on.

 

[edwin_m]

Personally i preferred the 170s to any of the current stock. They are actually really good trains. One of the best DMUs built. On the occasions when Midland Mainline ran long enough formations of 170s (to avoid overcrowding) they were actually really nice to travel on.

I seem to remember the legroom in the airline seats in Standard was pretty awful. The Central Trains ones were much better.

Fun fact: one of these appeared at St Pancras on a passenger working just before the end of 1998, then they disappeared until the timetable change. I believe this was so they weren't subject to the RVAR requirements, as they were invoked if the first of class wasn't in service by the end of 1998.

 

[Magdalia]

Thought there was a through train from Matlock at some point. I caught the Burton one a time or two.

The 2002 timetable has 0634 Matlock/0700 Burton-St Pancras joining at Derby with 1830 from St Pancras going the other way.

There were also 2 trains to/from Barnsley up at 0805 and 1405, down at 1000 and 1630.

I seem to remember the legroom in the airline seats in Standard was pretty awful.

I remember that too.

 

[Sprinter107]

The 2002 timetable has 0634 Matlock/0700 Burton-St Pancras joining at Derby with 1830 from St Pancras going the other way.

There were also 2 trains to/from Barnsley up at 0805 and 1405, down at 1000 and 1630.



I remember that too.

Yes. I thought there were 2 that joined.

 

[LMS 4F]

DMU use on an Inter City service on the MML pre dates the 170s by nearly 40 years.
Around about 1960 I used to see a Manchester to London service through Bedford in the morning about 1030 every chance I got, school permitting. It worked back mid afternoon and the interest was always in which Loco had got the job.
By this time it was often a pair of new class 31s.
On this one day much to our surprise it turned up as 4 x 2 car DMUs. We had to call in assistance to ensure we got all eight numbers as when it passed our spot it was moving quite fast.
I’ve no idea which units they were nor did I ever see them after this one occasion.

 

[Sad Sprinter]

I never used these trains, but I think the MML 170s were possibly the greatest train/livery combo ever. I was obsessed with them for a brief time when I was 8, having only saw a glimpse of one go through Elstree and Borehamwood

 

[P156KWJ]

Some people may be surprised to learn the MML 170s had a buffet counter as well

 

[hexagon789]

Some people may be surprised to learn the MML 170s had a buffet counter as well

Only once the centre cars were added, and thus only 10 of the 17 units had them.

Otherwise and originally, it was just a trolley service.

 

[Sprinter107]

Some people may be surprised to learn the MML 170s had a buffet counter as well

Yes, it was called MMs Bar.

 

[Helvellyn]

Only once the centre cars were added, and thus only 10 of the 17 units had them.

Otherwise and originally, it was just a trolley service.

Midland Mainline gave complimentary tea and coffee out as well (I think it's withdrawal created a lot of noise when East Midlands Trains was formed). They switched to half size Max Pak cups and I think the view was it encouraged up selling at the buffet or from the trolley.

 

[Davester50]

Midland Mainline gave complimentary tea and coffee out as well (I think it's withdrawal created a lot of noise when East Midlands Trains was formed). They switched to half size Max Pak cups and I think the view was it encouraged up selling at the buffet or from the trolley.

Yes, I remember that, and was surprised when I went to the buffet car for a coffee. The giant chocolate chip cookies of that era went well with it

 

[edwin_m]

Another short-lived innovation was to offer First Class tickets at the same price as Standard (Open Returns only I think). The catch was that they were MML only, so they must have reckoned the saving of ORCATS payments to other TOCs made it worthwhile for them.

 

[Hairy Bear]

Yes, it was called MMs Bar.

Lit by very early use of colour changing LED's in a bespoke fixture, they cost 10k each. Each one slowly failed one after another and never repared.

 

[Harpo]

I remember ex-MML 170s on Central. The declassified firsts were possibly the most comfortable train seats I’ve ever experienced.

 

[LowLevel]

I remember ex-MML 170s on Central. The declassified firsts were possibly the most comfortable train seats I’ve ever experienced.

Whereas the standard class ones were and are to this day the worst

 

[GatwickDepress]

In 1999, the 0700 from Nottingham to St Pancras was booked for a 2 car 170 until MM doubled it after complaints of overcrowding.

Now, the 0712 to St Pancras is booked as 10 cars. Unthinkable to have 2 car trains on the Midland Mainline (running to St Pancras) today.

I think there were also a few teething issues with the Turbostars too, something about water ingress in the passenger saloons when it rained?