DfT to throw £20m at Southern network

[DynamicSpirit]

The same problem is painfully obvious at East Croydon, and sometimes at Redhill, although at the latter, even the platform staff that have been there for years ,seem to be taken by surprise by more train moves than they should be! However, they are quite happy to despatch London-bound trains at exactly the moment that a parallel (potentially connecting) train is arriving on the other side of the island platform!

Is that really a problem? Trains from East Croydon to London go so frequently that it's not like connecting passengers are likely to have to wait more than a few minutes for another train, is it?

 

[Deepgreen]

Is that really a problem? Trains from East Croydon to London go so frequently that it's not like connecting passengers are likely to have to wait more than a few minutes for another train, is it?

At Redhill, it is very annoying, to say the least, when, for example, a train is despatched to London (Victoria) and the next one (20 minutes later) is either cancelled or four cars (as happened yet again yesterday to me), especially during the current emergency timetable. The frequency of this occurrence is quite high and causes much passenger rage among those who could have boarded if another 10-15 seconds had sensibly been allowed.

At East Croydon, where the issue is not about the delay to potential boarding passengers, but the delay and consequent loss of paths for the trains concerned, there are very frequent incidences of train delay caused by despatch being lacking owing to the single member of staff at one end of any particular island platform being busy trying to despatch a train on one side of the island platform and therefore being unable to despatch the other waiting train. This is a specific issue mentioned by Chris Grayling in his plan to tackle Southern's performance failures (the £20m plan).

 

[WatcherZero]

See below
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


Not sure
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


They are a new NR grade that will sit inbetween Shift Signaller Manager SSM and Train Running Controller TRC, but the exact job title, spec and interface is still being fleshed out. All I know is my place is getting them on an early and late turn shift pattern.

Supposedly their job will be to ensure that signallers decisions are compatible/contributing to good strategic management of services. I.e individual decisions are making the most efficent use of line capacity.

 

[Sunset route]

Supposedly their job will be to ensure that signallers decisions are compatible/contributing to good strategic management of services. I.e individual decisions are making the most efficent use of line capacity.

With about 70 to 90 regulating points across all the panels in a 270 degree arc and one signal supervisor with no signalling knowledge or panel knowledge, I do wish them the best of luck in sorting out the BML and associated branches. There is going to be a lot of expectations placed on their shoulders, it's either going to be "many hands make light work" or "too many cooks spoil the broth".

 

[infobleep]

Indeed. Delaying rain will prevent puddles big enough for the propellors to function.



Tried that. Didn't work. That means the next one isn't allowed to break down.

Well cancel the next one. Lol. It seems to be that at times there isn't much that can be done bar infrastructure improvements and those are taking place. It's either that or find was to discourage people from using the railways. I'm not keen on the latter though as I like rail travel.

Sent from my SM-G925F using Tapatalk
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

At Redhill, it is very annoying, to say the least, when, for example, a train is despatched to London (Victoria) and the next one (20 minutes later) is either cancelled or four cars (as happened yet again yesterday to me), especially during the current emergency timetable. The frequency of this occurrence is quite high and causes much passenger rage among those who could have boarded if another 10-15 seconds had sensibly been allowed.

At East Croydon, where the issue is not about the delay to potential boarding passengers, but the delay and consequent loss of paths for the trains concerned, there are very frequent incidences of train delay caused by despatch being lacking owing to the single member of staff at one end of any particular island platform being busy trying to despatch a train on one side of the island platform and therefore being unable to despatch the other waiting train. This is a specific issue mentioned by Chris Grayling in his plan to tackle Southern's performance failures (the £20m plan).

I assume your coming off the Great Western Railway train at Redhill, which may be why they don't hold the Southern train. Maybe if platform staff held it of their own wishing, they would get a telling off and thus it becomes more than their jobs worth to do so. Is that scenario plausible?

Sent from my SM-G925F using Tapatalk

 

[HH]

They are a new NR grade that will sit inbetween Shift Signaller Manager SSM and Train Running Controller TRC, but the exact job title, spec and interface is still being fleshed out. All I know is my place is getting them on an early and late turn shift pattern.

Sounds like it's creating an extra layer of management; in my experience that tends to bring disbenefits, rather than improving things.

 

[Sunset route]

Sounds like it's creating an extra layer of management; in my experience that tends to bring disbenefits, rather than improving things.

I'll plead the 5th on that one.

 

[Deepgreen]

Well cancel the next one. Lol. It seems to be that at times there isn't much that can be done bar infrastructure improvements and those are taking place. It's either that or find was to discourage people from using the railways. I'm not keen on the latter though as I like rail travel.

Sent from my SM-G925F using Tapatalk
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I assume your coming off the Great Western Railway train at Redhill, which may be why they don't hold the Southern train. Maybe if platform staff held it of their own wishing, they would get a telling off and thus it becomes more than their jobs worth to do so. Is that scenario plausible?

Sent from my SM-G925F using Tapatalk

Indeed so, but it also applies to cross-platform interchanges between Southern's own trains! My rule of thumb would be to permit access from a train which is actually arriving on one side of the platform (i.e. within the confines of the platform) to one ready to leave on the other side - i.e. when the passengers can literally see their intended train waiting, whether it is an advertised connection or not (assuming any TOCs recognise this concept these days), which would entail only around 15 seconds' delay. This length of wait for sensible interchange will not, despite what the TOCs claim, cause any measurable knock-on delay in 99% of cases.

I would not necessarily expect to be able to extend it beyond that criterion in the present TOC delay-obsessed regime. The frequent frustration and anger felt by passengers trying to transfer at Redhill (and elsewhere, for that matter) is largely avoidable by a sensible guideline for platform staff, which at present might as well actually be wearing blinkers as far as their perception by passengers is concerned. The fragmented operation is simply unacceptable, and passengers should not have to understand or care about the business criteria prioritised by TOCs when trying to make their journeys.

 

[HH]

I'll plead the 5th on that one.

You know why these things get done, don't you? It's a hell of a lot cheaper than actually getting to the root of the problem and it sounds like you are doing something.

In a commercial company these positions would last about 18 months before they were quietly shelved and the staff re-deployed; in NR they'll probably be there until the next reorganisation (at least).

 

[WatcherZero]

In theory if they are doing the equivalent of a time and motion study on the network, testing which decisions produce the most efficient outcomes, then they shouldn't have to last that long. Their effects should last after their leaving until the data and instruction they generate fades over time with staff turnover/changes in infrastructure/services.

 

[physics34]

They dont need a "Tsar" to sort out many problems....... JUst ask railstaff who work on the network every day.

Turnarounds for stock and train crew are too tight

Breaks for train crew are too tight

Timings are too tight, they were never altered for the introduction of the 10 cars in the metro and the 12 car on the Grinsteads

There are not enough places for berthing stock

Trains are not cancelled when they should be and decisions are not made quickly enough.

There are too many off peak services on the metro

Too many pointless ECS moves

Not enough spare traincrew in strategic places

Slow release of signals or too many strange decisions made by signallers

Train dispatch too slow

....it doesnt take a rocket scientist to tell what is wrong with the network.

The emergency timetable was the correct idea in my opinion, but it just targeted the wrong areas.

As long as 10 car services are elsewhere.... Vic to Sutton 2Rs should be chopped, London Bridge to Caterham services could be dropped, Reigates and Tonbridge couldve just been shuttles... (i cant really comment about the coastal services)..... This could be in place long term.

 

[Sunset route]

Slow release of signals or too many strange decisions made by signallers

Approach control is approach control can't really help with that one. Strange decisions by signallers at the end of the day they are just judgement calls that some you get right some you get wrong, some are made with good intentions. A late running services (that is failing PPM) regardless of stopping pattern has to be added to the conveyor belt that is the BML at some point and can't be held indefinitely and will end up in front of a faster service. After all the next gap for the slower service will be taken up by the same service but half later. Quite a lot of the decisions that drivers don't like come their own TOC control via NR control and their train is to be that hours sacrificial lamb. The BML is a very crowded railway and I can't see that changing anytime soon, but performance does improve when the thinned out service operates on the conductor/guard strike days.

Most of the suburban side was designed for 8 coach trains that could pull right up to the signal and didn't have to stand a coach length from the signal when at red at a junction. I've lost count of the amount of times that a 10 car 2R or 2J is hanging over Selhurst junction waiting for Glocester road junction, which in turn is preventing an up 2L, 2P, 2M, etc etc from crossing over Selhusrt Junction and now themselves over hanging Cottage Junction thus preventing the next train trying to join the up London Bridge Bridge slow line. Even worse all the junctions are controlled by three different signallers with their own ideas on how to regaulate and which train they want to have priority if they I not on time. This is happens almost everytime a train requires the down Selhusrt spur in the morning peak. Now LOROL have a tighter PPM than all service groups on GTR they nearly get first service over everything else, in fact there are now controllers employed just to ensue it happens.

So in fact your service from East Grinstead, Uckfield, Caterham, Tattenham Corner, Redhill, Reigate, Tonbridge, Three Bridges and Horsahm in fact any service on the up slow lines for Norwood Junction, London Bridge/Thameslink Core that is delayed at Windmil Bridge Jcn could be because a 5 coach train to the East London Line has priority at a junction on another line that you can't even see from either your driving cab or coach window.

Whether we drive trains, signal trains or work in control, getting the commuters to and from London on a daily bases on time is becoming a ever increasing complex puzzle to solve and it's got to be done safely. There are strange regulating rules we have to follow just because it's in the TOCs contract and all the TOCs plus NR agree a common policy even if most if the staff on the ground don't get the hear about it, but we as signallers get to hear about one way or another as it what we have to follow when we regaulate.

 

[physics34]

Approach control is approach control can't really help with that one. Strange decisions by signallers at the end of the day they are just judgement calls that some you get right some you get wrong, some are made with good intentions. A late running services (that is failing PPM) regardless of stopping pattern has to be added to the conveyor belt that is the BML at some point and can't be held indefinitely and will end up in front of a faster service. After all the next gap for the slower service will be taken up by the same service but half later. Quite a lot of the decisions that drivers don't like come their own TOC control via NR control and their train is to be that hours sacrificial lamb. The BML is a very crowded railway and I can't see that changing anytime soon, but performance does improve when the thinned out service operates on the conductor/guard strike days.

Most of the suburban side was designed for 8 coach trains that could pull right up to the signal and didn't have to stand a coach length from the signal when at red at a junction. I've lost count of the amount of times that a 10 car 2R or 2J is hanging over Selhurst junction waiting for Glocester road junction, which in turn is preventing an up 2L, 2P, 2M, etc etc from crossing over Selhusrt Junction and now themselves over hanging Cottage Junction thus preventing the next train trying to join the up London Bridge Bridge slow line. Even worse all the junctions are controlled by three different signallers with their own ideas on how to regaulate and which train they want to have priority if they I not on time. This is happens almost everytime a train requires the down Selhusrt spur in the morning peak. Now LOROL have a tighter PPM than all service groups on GTR they nearly get first service over everything else, in fact there are now controllers employed just to ensue it happens.

So in fact your service from East Grinstead, Uckfield, Caterham, Tattenham Corner, Redhill, Reigate, Tonbridge, Three Bridges and Horsahm in fact any service on the up slow lines for Norwood Junction, London Bridge/Thameslink Core that is delayed at Windmil Bridge Jcn could be because a 5 coach train to the East London Line has priority at a junction on another line that you can't even see from either your driving cab or coach window.

Whether we drive trains, signal trains or work in control, getting the commuters to and from London on a daily bases on time is becoming a ever increasing complex puzzle to solve and it's got to be done safely. There are strange regulating rules we have to follow just because it's in the TOCs contract and all the TOCs plus NR agree a common policy even if most if the staff on the ground don't get the hear about it, but we as signallers get to hear about one way or another as it what we have to follow when we regaulate.

There seems to be a necessity to let the "Thameslink's" go first...at norwood fork and the junction north of norwood junction regardless of how late they are or how many trains get held up in the process. For example, my Uckfield.... which is on time... will get held at cottage Bridge for a late running up Thameslink...which has to slow down at NJ to crossover on to the up crystal palace... I could've been and gone 3 mins ago if I had green. Instead I'm stuck there at cottage Bridge holding all sorts of things up.

As I've said before I'm not doubting the signallers have a heavy workload etc etc, it's just frustrating.... and seems to happen very often.

 

[Sunset route]

There seems to be a necessity to let the "Thameslink's" go first...at norwood fork and the junction north of norwood junction regardless of how late they are or how many trains get held up in the process. For example, my Uckfield.... which is on time... will get held at cottage Bridge for a late running up Thameslink...which has to slow down at NJ to crossover on to the up crystal palace... I could've been and gone 3 mins ago if I had green. Instead I'm stuck there at cottage Bridge holding all sorts of things up.

As I've said before I'm not doubting the signallers have a heavy workload etc etc, it's just frustrating.... and seems to happen very often.

Under the rules of PPM I can hold an on time GTR train for 4:59 for a late running GTR train if I beleive that they will both make PPM at their respective destinations based on the information I have on my panel. That's is more than likely the reason you have been delayed, as I said we have regulated rules to work by good or bad.

 

[Chrisgr31]

They dont need a "Tsar" to sort out many problems....... JUst ask railstaff who work on the network every day.

<snip>

...it doesnt take a rocket scientist to tell what is wrong with the network.

The emergency timetable was the correct idea in my opinion, but it just targeted the wrong areas.

Some excellent stuff in there which I think is known to many whether rail staff or educated passengers who have investigated what is wrong with the network.

As a passenger I find some decisions that occur are very strange, particularly when it as all gone wrong, and thats one of my big bugbears as there is no consistency of decisions when it goes wrong. If the same thing that happened every time the staff and passengers would know what was happening and how they were affected.

The reality of course is that one reason for getting rid of conductors is to aid service recovery in times of disruption as they only need to find one member of staff to run the train. The alternative is of course to have extra staff to cover disruption. The problem at them moment is a delay at London Bridge soon impacts on Victoria and throughout the Southern network.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Most of the suburban side was designed for 8 coach trains that could pull right up to the signal and didn't have to stand a coach length from the signal when at red at a junction. I've lost count of the amount of times that a 10 car 2R or 2J is hanging over Selhurst junction waiting for Glocester road junction, which in turn is preventing an up 2L, 2P, 2M, etc etc from crossing over Selhusrt Junction and now themselves over hanging Cottage Junction thus preventing the next train trying to join the up London Bridge Bridge slow line. Even worse all the junctions are controlled by three different signallers with their own ideas on how to regaulate and which train they want to have priority if they I not on time. This is happens almost everytime a train requires the down Selhusrt spur in the morning peak. Now LOROL have a tighter PPM than all service groups on GTR they nearly get first service over everything else, in fact there are now controllers employed just to ensue it happens.

I was recently wondering whether the 10 car class 171's fit in the down slope at Windmill Bridge when joining the fast line to London Bridge. It always appeared tight as an 8 car, but I haven't been to the back on the 10 cars, to see if they are blocking the slow lines to Victoria. Guess that that area is next to be sorted out once London Bridge is completed. Interesting to see what you say about LOROL v GTR and LOROL effectively getting priority. For a start it doesnt seem particularly fair to hold up a train that might be running on time but also the TFL advertising really annoys me as it talks about reinvesting profits as they are not a private company. However they are paying a private company to run their service, and if their PPM requirements mean another TOC gets held up what happens if that TOC gets the same PPM? If they are going to boast about their figures compared to other TOCs then we need a level playing field.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

For example, my Uckfield.... which is on time... will get held at cottage Bridge for a late running up Thameslink...which has to slow down at NJ to crossover on to the up crystal palace... I could've been and gone 3 mins ago if I had green.

Us Uckfield passengers are very used to being on time before we get stuck somewhere behind something else thats late making us late. The longer platforms though do appear to have helped with dwell times on the 7.05 up and 18.06 down.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Under the rules of PPM I can hold an on time GTR train for 4:59 for a late running GTR train if I beleive that they will both make PPM at their respective destinations based on the information I have on my panel. That's is more than likely the reason you have been delayed, as I said we have regulated rules to work by good or bad.

So that way you end up with 2 trains full of cross passengers instead of one! Not your fault I know, shows the problem with targets.


and thanks to Physics and you for some great informative posts.

 

[JonathanH]

Given the topic appears to be regulation through East Croydon / Windmill Bridge are GTR going to be able to get 18tph though the slow lines in the peak under their 2018 timetable plans? It is going to take some doing, presumably with trains joining at Purley and South Croydon having pathing time to help them present themselves on time.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

As long as 10 car services are elsewhere.... Vic to Sutton 2Rs should be chopped, London Bridge to Caterham services could be dropped, Reigates and Tonbridge couldve just been shuttles... (i cant really comment about the coastal services)..... This could be in place long term.

Vic to Sutton '2R' services appear to be the only ones in the 2018 plan from Victoria for the stations between Streatham Common and Selhurst (along with the 2J London Bridge services and 2M/2O services to the West London Line)

Chopping London Bridge to Caterham services seems to be upsetting passengers on the Sydenham line on this forum as they lose a direct link to East Croydon.

There is 'uproar' amongst rail users in Reigate who won't have a direct service to London Bridge.

The Southern network is complex and people are too used to having services to their chosen terminal despite the fact that operationally it is that complexity of serving both Victoria and London Bridge from almost everywhere that leads to all the delays and congestion.

 

[Sunset route]

I was recently wondering whether the 10 car class 171's fit in the down slope at Windmill Bridge when joining the fast line to London Bridge. It always appeared tight as an 8 car, but I haven't been to the back on the 10 cars, to see if they are blocking the slow lines to Victoria.

A 10 coach 171 or a 12 coach 377/387/700 if held on a red signal on the down London Bridge slow will over hang Norwood Folk Junction and if the move was fast to slow then the next service in rear will be held on the second signal back as that's the way the signal overlaps work.

 

[Chrisgr31]

The Southern network is complex and people are too used to having services to their chosen terminal despite the fact that operationally it is that complexity of serving both Victoria and London Bridge from almost everywhere that leads to all the delays and congestion.

There are still passengers on the Uckfield line that complain the diesels no longer go to Victoria. Must be 20 years since we went there!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

A 10 coach 171 or a 12 coach 377/387/700 if held on a red signal on the down London Bridge slow will over hang Norwood Folk Junction and if the move was fast to slow then the next service in rear will be held on the second signal back as that's the way the signal overlaps work.

thanks for the information

 

[Sunset route]

thanks for the information

It's a railway designed in the late 70s built in the early 80s trying to cope with the worst the 21c teens can throw at it, we've long since run out of capacity at certain junctions.

 

[JonathanH]

There are still passengers on the Uckfield line that complain the diesels no longer go to Victoria. Must be 20 years since we went there!

Try 12 years - 21 May 2004 was the last time an Uckfield train was scheduled to run to / from Victoria - but your point stands.

 

[physics34]

Given the topic appears to be regulation through East Croydon / Windmill Bridge are GTR going to be able to get 18tph though the slow lines in the peak under their 2018 timetable plans? It is going to take some doing, presumably with trains joining at Purley and South Croydon having pathing time to help them present themselves on time.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


Vic to Sutton '2R' services appear to be the only ones in the 2018 plan from Victoria for the stations between Streatham Common and Selhurst (along with the 2J London Bridge services and 2M/2O services to the West London Line)

Chopping London Bridge to Caterham services seems to be upsetting passengers on the Sydenham line on this forum as they lose a direct link to East Croydon.

There is 'uproar' amongst rail users in Reigate who won't have a direct service to London Bridge.

The Southern network is complex and people are too used to having services to their chosen terminal despite the fact that operationally it is that complexity of serving both Victoria and London Bridge from almost everywhere that leads to all the delays and congestion.

Reigate went for years, even decades without direct services to London..... the 2R suttons tend to get in the way, whereas the 2R Epsom/Epsom Downs are necessities. They should be cancelled until 2018s new timetable.

Passengers on the sydenham line will still have the New Cross Gate direct to East Croydon service (until 2018).

I look back to the service levels of the late 90s and note that we didnt have the delays and complete inability to recover the service like we have now...but also we only had 2 tph to Caterham, no London Bridge to Tonbridge or Reigate services and less trains between West Croydon and Sutton.

 

[carriageline]

Under the rules of PPM I can hold an on time GTR train for 4:59 for a late running GTR train if I beleive that they will both make PPM at their respective destinations based on the information I have on my panel. That's is more than likely the reason you have been delayed, as I said we have regulated rules to work by good or bad.

Is the Sussex regulating policy still saying that a late running fast train can be put in front of a ontime slow/all station stopped, regardless of lateness? To me and the 'small' bit of railway I controlled, that made the most sense

PS Not doubting you guys at all! I know what this job is like at times. I don't dabble in Sussex choo choos anymore so well out of the loop there!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[sarahj]

It's scary that once it goes wrong, the escalation is just immense. Yesterday evening a freight train doing a naughty at Windmill Bridge, and then that was it, the trains just piled up, and then the issues move outward, until your train, much later on a branch, is late as the previous crew were stuck somewhere else.
A few messages last night also seemed to say passengers on a stuck train egressed themselves. Not sure if it was true, but added to the 'fun'.

 

[tsr]

It's scary that once it goes wrong, the escalation is just immense. Yesterday evening a freight train doing a naughty at Windmill Bridge, and then that was it, the trains just piled up, and then the issues move outward, until your train, much later on a branch, is late as the previous crew were stuck somewhere else.
A few messages last night also seemed to say passengers on a stuck train egressed themselves. Not sure if it was true, but added to the 'fun'.

To be fair, last night's issues were not just with that freight train (which was bad enough anyway) but also a good chunk of the Fasts being shut down by a naughty GX train too.

You are correct about the incident on a train in the resulting queue - I actually saw it happen - fortunately the egress was pulled in the platform at the station concerned, but the sheer number of people getting off made me think that there may have been an unpredictable chain reaction due to overcrowding (the service in question would have been creeping along for at least a short while before the egress, perhaps with conditions becoming frustrating onboard) and I'm also not sure if there was anyone onboard to provide info other than the driver. And, once it happened, I don't know if anyone would have been able to squeeze through the train very quickly to reset the door systems, either.

This is why good information is so vital, preferably provided by a competent person able to dedicate themselves to such a task. Even on a Saturday evening, a 10 or 12 coach train can be grossly overcrowded in South London, an area with no other transport links designed to offer a quick medium-distance people moving service. There will always be a number of people amongst ~1000-1200 onboard who will get frustrated extremely quickly if nobody can explain what is going on.

 

[sarahj]

To be fair, last night's issues were not just with that freight train (which was bad enough anyway) but also a good chunk of the Fasts being shut down by a naughty GX train too.

You are correct about the incident on a train in the resulting queue - I actually saw it happen - fortunately the egress was pulled in the platform at the station concerned, but the sheer number of people getting off made me think that there may have been an unpredictable chain reaction due to overcrowding (the service in question would have been creeping along for at least a short while before the egress, perhaps with conditions becoming frustrating onboard) and I'm also not sure if there was anyone onboard to provide info other than the driver. And, once it happened, I don't know if anyone would have been able to squeeze through the train very quickly to reset the door systems, either.

This is why good information is so vital, preferably provided by a competent person able to dedicate themselves to such a task. Even on a Saturday evening, a 10 or 12 coach train can be grossly overcrowded in South London, an area with no other transport links designed to offer a quick medium-distance people moving service. There will always be a number of people amongst ~1000-1200 onboard who will get frustrated extremely quickly if nobody can explain what is going on.

I think it was a 1A that the punters egressed themselves, so more than likely a DOO. I was chatting to the driver of the other stuck train, seems their chat with fleet was tense and the issue that got it back going again was about number 20 on a list of 20.

 

[tsr]

I think it was a 1A that the punters egressed themselves, so more than likely a DOO. I was chatting to the driver of the other stuck train, seems their chat with fleet was tense and the issue that got it back going again was about number 20 on a list of 20.

It was. In a queue of other trains including, IIRC, various 1As and 1Ds, and, to cap it all, some random 2R or two!

It seemed that the chosen method of working was to keep most trains booked for the Down Fast in a queue on there, with the result of severe delays to most of them for about an hour and a half following the first incident (the freight one). Unfortunately this was almost certainly a factor with the egress of the 1A. But...

What it did mean that Metro services, bar those one or two 2Rs, had something of a more separated service recovery than I usually see, without getting merged with the express workings and everything causing delays to each other. This worked quite well, with the result that although crew and trains were delayed everywhere, there were fewer trains waiting crew than I thought there'd be at places like Selhurst.

I suspect this may have been by accident as much as anything - the incident with the freight meant that after Balham, using the Fast Lines was about as good as it was going to get for trains on most routes, as the Slows were bearing the brunt of the problems around Cottage Bridge and Windmill Bridge.

Had the incident with the GX service on approach to East Croydon not have occurred, I suspect the Fasts would have moved a lot more freely about 10mins or so after the first incident, at least at first - but then the Metro services would have probably ended up shuffling around the throats of East Croydon, which would have made recovery of those services a bit messier (but at least the Up Fast was still moving, so stock and crew could at least still get into London). You can never win on some days! 'Twas all a very complicated evening.

 

[jopsuk]

This London Reconnections article has, some way through it, a diagram (August last year) of how they believe Network Rail wishes to reconfigure the whole junction complex around Windmill Bridge etc (plus East Croydon station itself).

 

[infobleep]

It was. In a queue of other trains including, IIRC, various 1As and 1Ds, and, to cap it all, some random 2R or two!

It seemed that the chosen method of working was to keep most trains booked for the Down Fast in a queue on there, with the result of severe delays to most of them for about an hour and a half following the first incident (the freight one). Unfortunately this was almost certainly a factor with the egress of the 1A. But...

What it did mean that Metro services, bar those one or two 2Rs, had something of a more separated service recovery than I usually see, without getting merged with the express workings and everything causing delays to each other. This worked quite well, with the result that although crew and trains were delayed everywhere, there were fewer trains waiting crew than I thought there'd be at places like Selhurst.

I suspect this may have been by accident as much as anything - the incident with the freight meant that after Balham, using the Fast Lines was about as good as it was going to get for trains on most routes, as the Slows were bearing the brunt of the problems around Cottage Bridge and Windmill Bridge.

Had the incident with the GX service on approach to East Croydon not have occurred, I suspect the Fasts would have moved a lot more freely about 10mins or so after the first incident, at least at first - but then the Metro services would have probably ended up shuffling around the throats of East Croydon, which would have made recovery of those services a bit messier (but at least the Up Fast was still moving, so stock and crew could at least still get into London). You can never win on some days! 'Twas all a very complicated evening.

A delayed fast Thameslink train to Brighton departed East Croydon. It was fast to Gatwick and then all stations to at least Haywards Heath. A Thameslink to Brighton, via Redhill, departed just after. It stopped at more stations before Gatwick but one less to Haywards Heath after. To my surprise, as I was on it, we ended up in Gatwick delayed but just ahead of the other Thameslink service, which pulled into platform 5, shortly after. We arrived into Haywards Heath first. Not often going via Redhill is faster!

Sent from my SM-G925F using Tapatalk

 

[physics34]

I think it was a 1A that the punters egressed themselves, so more than likely a DOO. I was chatting to the driver of the other stuck train, seems their chat with fleet was tense and the issue that got it back going again was about number 20 on a list of 20.

ISFM/Fleet are extremely frustrating at times... some of them.even asking "Have you put your key on"?!

 

[LBSCR Times]

ISFM/Fleet are extremely frustrating at times... some of them.even asking "Have you put your key on"?!

Yes, and equally frustrating for the Fleet at times, having to go through very basic stuff.....