DfT to throw £20m at Southern network

[Islineclear3_1]

New?! If you count the last 50 years as new!

I'm talking about the new signalling on the East Coastway (commissioned early 2015)

But the problems are probably more in the London area
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I find it disgraceful that the UK government is essentially bailing out a private rail operator which has clearly failed to fulfill its role. Of course the higher ups will still receive their extortionate salaries. If I were a UK taxpayer I would be incredibly angry that public money was being spent to allow such an operation to continue.

Nothing new here then....look at the banking sector

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

"Unprecedented sick levels" - forgive me but that must be a load of tosh. Either from the company themselves, or the drivers are all coordinating sickies.

Perhaps this may be a new viral infection, unknown to medical science as yet, which will needs years of research in order to have a remedy approved after the normally accepted period for allowing such to be marketed.

Has the illness spread to other regions and are all the populace at large in danger of contacting it.

All I can do is to say "Three Hail Mary's" every night for the next seven days...:roll:

 

[WatcherZero]

Its worth noting that its been confirmed the £20m is being paid in to a Network Rail account not the Toc and NR will be in charge of the review to decide how to spend it.

 

[Sunset route]

As a daily commuter i had no idea this was the case, i always presumed that if things are working broadly as planned the routes will set themselves and the signaller just oversees and deals with problems and changes? Or if not, that the route could be set for a train at it's starting point and if it was a standard journey would be set for the entire journey?

Is the London Bridge area common, in that every signal needs to be set? or are other places a little less labour (clicking) intensive?

London Bridge although new, has not been equipped with ARS (automatic route setting) as waiting in the wings is the more advanced technology of ETCS (European Train Control System, which will include IRS (Intelligent Route Setting, so we've been told lol) with the all encompessing TMS (Train Management System) in its interfaced and Isloated formats. Will be the technical aids to assist the signaller. But in the meantime it's either repetitive mouse clicks or button pushes depending which control centre the train is passing through at the time.

 

[HH]

I understand that GWR were less than impressed with ARS, when it was introduced...

 

[FOH]

I thought the 2018 consultation was out today but I can't find it. Any idea?

 

[43074]

I thought the 2018 consultation was out today but I can't find it. Any idea?

They've encountered technicalities if you believe this - they said earlier it should be out early next week but they seem to have removed that bit! - http://www.southernrailway.com/your-journey/timetable-consultation.

2018 Timetable Consultation

We are very sorry but due to a technicality with one of the interactive documents, we have not been able to start the consultation yet.

 

[Bald Rick]

London Bridge although new, has not been equipped with ARS (automatic route setting) as waiting in the wings is the more advanced technology of ETCS (European Train Control System, which will include IRS (Intelligent Route Setting, so we've been told lol) with the all encompessing TMS (Train Management System) in its interfaced and Isloated formats. Will be the technical aids to assist the signaller. But in the meantime it's either repetitive mouse clicks or button pushes depending which control centre the train is passing through at the time.

ETCS is the method of getting the signaller's commands to the driver, and is independent of the method of control interface the signaller uses. In theory, you could control ETCS off a lever frame; obviously that is not done (although it would be fun to try!)

 

[FOH]

They've encountered technicalities if you believe this - they said earlier it should be out early next week but they seem to have removed that bit! - http://www.southernrailway.com/your-journey/timetable-consultation.

Thanks for digging that out, thought I was going crazy as it was only a few days ago I'd read it was delayed from the 6th to the 8th and then nothing.

 

[infobleep]

London Bridge although new, has not been equipped with ARS (automatic route setting) as waiting in the wings is the more advanced technology of ETCS (European Train Control System, which will include IRS (Intelligent Route Setting, so we've been told lol) with the all encompessing TMS (Train Management System) in its interfaced and Isloated formats. Will be the technical aids to assist the signaller. But in the meantime it's either repetitive mouse clicks or button pushes depending which control centre the train is passing through at the time.

Will. They simply be able to upgrade the existing signals for ETCS or will they need to rip them out and put new ones in?

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ETCS is the method of getting the signaller's commands to the driver, and is independent of the method of control interface the signaller uses. In theory, you could control ETCS off a lever frame; obviously that is not done (although it would be fun to try!)

That would be fun. Never happen though.

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[Skimble19]

Thanks for digging that out, thought I was going crazy as it was only a few days ago I'd read it was delayed from the 6th to the 8th and then nothing.

Ironically there are now posters up at some stations on GN advertising this but nothing to be found of it online...

Perhaps it's been delayed due to a lack of available website crew?

 

[glbotu]

London Bridge although new, has not been equipped with ARS (automatic route setting) as waiting in the wings is the more advanced technology of ETCS (European Train Control System, which will include IRS (Intelligent Route Setting, so we've been told lol) with the all encompessing TMS (Train Management System) in its interfaced and Isloated formats. Will be the technical aids to assist the signaller. But in the meantime it's either repetitive mouse clicks or button pushes depending which control centre the train is passing through at the time.

Does anyone know what the difference is between ARS and IRS? I understand that ARS sets routes for the signaller, but the signaller takes over for disruptions/re-routings etc, but how does IRS differ?

 

[Sunset route]

Does anyone know what the difference is between ARS and IRS? I understand that ARS sets routes for the signaller, but the signaller takes over for disruptions/re-routings etc, but how does IRS differ?

Better AI I believe linked with decision making.

 

[HH]

Better AI I believe linked with decision making.

Criticisms of ARS have been levelled at the decision making, so an upgrade is probably necessary.

 

[Sunset route]

Criticisms of ARS have been levelled at the decision making, so an upgrade is probably necessary.

I don't think there is (was) any decision making logic in ARS, just the basic TT information (passing times and lines) as all it is, was an aid to the signaller that needs to be monitored and supervised, with signaller able to intervene.

 

[The Ham]

Perhaps it's been delayed due to a lack of available website crew?

Oh dear. If the reported up thread viral infection has spread from train crew to website crew how long before it starts to spread to other TOC's staff, to passengers or even (God forbid) the population at large.

 

[carriageline]

I also believe ARS is a brand name? And not linked to a type of product as such, same with IRS?


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[FOH]

Watching at London Bridge tonight it's obvious there aren't enough staff. The 1810 to Littlehampton was sitting in P10 delayed at 1814 when a dispatcher in orange ran onto the platform whistling and lifting his baton. Only issue was the signal was still red! He then jogged around to P11 where the Uckfield was waiting for him to dispatch. Too much rushing it appeared!

 

[Chrisgr31]

Watching at London Bridge tonight it's obvious there aren't enough staff. The 1810 to Littlehampton was sitting in P10 delayed at 1814 when a dispatcher in orange ran onto the platform whistling and lifting his baton. Only issue was the signal was still red! He then jogged around to P11 where the Uckfield was waiting for him to dispatch. Too much rushing it appeared!

I was on that Uckfield train, we were sitting on it wondering why Open Train Times indicated it had a green signal but it wasnt going anywhere. That explains it!

 

[Please Explain]

The twenty million will disappear into thin air...

 

[physics34]

Watching at London Bridge tonight it's obvious there aren't enough staff. The 1810 to Littlehampton was sitting in P10 delayed at 1814 when a dispatcher in orange ran onto the platform whistling and lifting his baton. Only issue was the signal was still red! He then jogged around to P11 where the Uckfield was waiting for him to dispatch. Too much rushing it appeared!

Ha, i was driving the Uckfield and i was wondering why we were so late leaving even though the signal had cleared!
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I was on that Uckfield train, we were sitting on it wondering why Open Train Times indicated it had a green signal but it wasnt going anywhere. That explains it!

The 18.06? I drove you to wherever you got off.!

I was delayed on my incoming service from Selhurst depot..... (455s)...but then we were ready to go at 18.10ish

 

[Deepgreen]

Watching at London Bridge tonight it's obvious there aren't enough staff. The 1810 to Littlehampton was sitting in P10 delayed at 1814 when a dispatcher in orange ran onto the platform whistling and lifting his baton. Only issue was the signal was still red! He then jogged around to P11 where the Uckfield was waiting for him to dispatch. Too much rushing it appeared!

The same problem is painfully obvious at East Croydon, and sometimes at Redhill, although at the latter, even the platform staff that have been there for years ,seem to be taken by surprise by more train moves than they should be! However, they are quite happy to despatch London-bound trains at exactly the moment that a parallel (potentially connecting) train is arriving on the other side of the island platform!

 

[tsr]

Ha, i was driving the Uckfield and i was wondering why we were so late leaving even though the signal had cleared!
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The 18.06? I drove you to wherever you got off.!

I was delayed on my incoming service from Selhurst depot..... (455s)...but then we were ready to go at 18.10ish

Noted... I shall make sure that in future all conductors on that duty ring you up and moan because there aren't enough dispatchers and they want to get a move on

 

[physics34]

Noted... I shall make sure that in future all conductors on that duty ring you up and moan because there aren't enough dispatchers and they want to get a move on

There has been well known staff shortages at London Bridge for ages. Its possible the fella that tried to dispatch the one on platform 11 on a red might get reported.

Ive got the same duty today and tomorrow. I arrive off 2K78 Selhurst Depot to LBG which is frequently late. Poor diagramming really.

 

[Sunset route]

There has been well known staff shortages at London Bridge for ages. Its possible the fella that tried to dispatch the one on platform 11 on a red might get reported.

Ive got the same duty today and tomorrow. I arrive off 2K78 Selhurst Depot to LBG which is frequently late. Poor diagramming really.

Very tight getting the empties out for that one, more trains than railway at Norwood at that time of evening.

 

[tsr]

There has been well known staff shortages at London Bridge for ages. Its possible the fella that tried to dispatch the one on platform 11 on a red might get reported.

Maybe. To be fair it could also depend on who saw it, if the dispatcher didn't self-report and nobody was actually looking for them to be dispatching because the procedure shouldn't have started anyway. All speculative though - I didn't see it happen.

That said, I ended up at London Bridge a couple of times yesterday evening and they did seem a bit hurried. It looked like it wasn't the best day for them in one way or another - and the Metro got quite badly out of sync later in the evening, partly due to a couple of 455s and a 171 being awkward.

Ive got the same duty today and tomorrow. I arrive off 2K78 Selhurst Depot to LBG which is frequently late. Poor diagramming really.

I have known it to work, and when it does, it's great having the driver ready and waiting - the trouble is getting that stopper into London Bridge as planned. I seem to vaguely recall there was a fair bit of effort a couple of months ago to look at what was going on and see if that could be made more reliable, a bit like the 1723 from Victoria to East Grinstead which was also having similar issues about the same time of the evening, resulting in a bit of chaos via Oxted! I don't remember any more details though, and maybe things have fallen apart again.

 

[Sunset route]

Signal Supervisor thats all new, I await for the definition of what one of these does and where they'll be located. But I won't hold my breath waiting lol

See below
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Do South West Trains have one of these or something similar, given they have integrated already?

Not sure
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Extra signal supervisors - no-one knows who these mythical beasts are, or what problem they're supposed to be fixing.

They are a new NR grade that will sit inbetween Shift Signaller Manager SSM and Train Running Controller TRC, but the exact job title, spec and interface is still being fleshed out. All I know is my place is getting them on an early and late turn shift pattern.

 

[Clip]

Very tight getting the empties out for that one, more trains than railway at Norwood at that time of evening.

Ive noticed that too and I know why they didnt go ahead with reinstating plat 7 there for the Thameslink works they really shouldve and shoved the LO trains through there to West Croydon which surely wouldve freed up a couple of extra paths through 5 & 6?

 

[infobleep]

The same problem is painfully obvious at East Croydon, and sometimes at Redhill, although at the latter, even the platform staff that have been there for years ,seem to be taken by surprise by more train moves than they should be! However, they are quite happy to despatch London-bound trains at exactly the moment that a parallel (potentially connecting) train is arriving on the other side of the island platform!

Well if they delay the departure of the train it will delay other services and passengers. There will always be winners and losers as some say.

What isn't good is someone tell you they will hold the train when that clearly won't happen. That should be frowned upon. It gives false hope and might even send people on a journey they might not have made.

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[emoji38]

There has been well known staff shortages at London Bridge for ages. Its possible the fella that tried to dispatch the one on platform 11 on a red might get reported.

Ive got the same duty today and tomorrow. I arrive off 2K78 Selhurst Depot to LBG which is frequently late. Poor diagramming really.

Surrey the only solution is not to run the train?

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[tsr]

Well if they delay the delivery of rain it will delay other services and passengers.

Indeed. Delaying rain will prevent puddles big enough for the propellors to function.

...the only solution is not to run the train?

Tried that. Didn't work. That means the next one isn't allowed to break down.