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DfT to throw £20m at Southern network

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fredk

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I find it disgraceful that the UK government is essentially bailing out a private rail operator which has clearly failed to fulfill its role. Of course the higher ups will still receive their extortionate salaries. If I were a UK taxpayer I would be incredibly angry that public money was being spent to allow such an operation to continue. :|
 
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Sunset route

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Are figures not available in any detail that show the actual total breakdown of the full amount of £20 million?

Not yet as far as I can tell, just sound bites and headlines, but it's like anything that envolves railways and politics, it's all hidden by smoke and mirrors.
 

CdBrux

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Could a lot of the other money be available to spend as Gibb and his team propose?
 

WatcherZero

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Yes certain amounts already decided but the bulk is to be spent at the investigation teams discretion.
 

Scott M

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Yet more money thrown at services down south while us in the north east still have to ride on pacers.
 

cle

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Yet more money thrown at services down south while us in the north east still have to ride on pacers.

Compare the ridership... not all about handouts and equal distribution to each child.
 

Harbornite

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Yet more money thrown at services down south while us in the north east still have to ride on pacers.

Didn't you get the memo about the new CAF DMUs and EMUs for Northern, not to mention TPE's orders fo AT300s and CAF LHCS?

You'll just have to drop it and get on with it for now. You aren't the only ones who have to put up with Pacers!
 

Hophead

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Except for


Key additional benefits of the £20 million include:

£2 million to be spent on more rapid response teams to fix faults more quickly, located close to known hotspots Network Rail

£2.5 million to be spent on accelerated train maintenance TOC

£0.8 million investment in extra signal supervisors to keep trains moving across the network Network Rail

£0.9 million investment in a series of measures to minimise the impact of bridge strikes Network Rail

Do you know, I kind of thought that these sorts of things came as standard with the railways. I had no idea that they were optional extras that the government would have to pay for if a reliable train service was required.
 

sarahj

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Yet more money thrown at services down south while us in the north east still have to ride on pacers.

I know it seems a bit biased, and I hate pacers with a passion, but we are talking about a line here that has trains running with around a thousand passengers each, every few mins, on a line that around 175 years old and is, in technical terms, fu#*ed. Another problem this afternoon and my southampton made it once more only to Fareham, 8 hours after the problem first raised it's ugly head.
 

physics34

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Do you know, I kind of thought that these sorts of things came as standard with the railways. I had no idea that they were optional extras that the government would have to pay for if a reliable train service was required.

Like I said I reckon this was gonna happen anyway... they've just announced it to butter up the passengers.
 

Sunset route

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Do you know, I kind of thought that these sorts of things came as standard with the railways. I had no idea that they were optional extras that the government would have to pay for if a reliable train service was required.

Signal Supervisor thats all new, I await for the definition of what one of these does and where they'll be located. But I won't hold my breath waiting lol :lol:
 

infobleep

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Like I said I reckon this was gonna happen anyway... they've just announced it to butter up the passengers.

The cynic in me agrees with you.

Signal Supervisor thats all new, I await for the definition of what one of these does and where they'll be located. But I won't hold my breath waiting lol [emoji38]
Do South West Trains have one of these or something similar, given they have integrated already?

Sent from my SM-G925F using Tapatalk
 
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DynamicSpirit

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https://www.gov.uk/government/news/...o-help-improve-resilience-of-southern-network

He didn't confirm the expected announcement of £1m to fund the hiring of goons to threaten staff that go on strike. <D

DfT said:
Key additional benefits of the £20 million include:
•£2 million to be spent on more rapid response teams to fix faults more quickly, located close to known hotspots
•£2.5 million to be spent on accelerated train maintenance
•£0.8 million investment in extra signal supervisors to keep trains moving across the network
•£0.9 million investment in a series of measures to minimise the impact of bridge strikes

To me this announcement makes no sense because what he seems to be claiming is a one-off £20M fund, but as far as I can see none of the items in the above list (possibly apart from the last one) appear to be one-off investments: They are all ongoing things that will need to be paid for every year and therefore require continuing funding to keep going.
 

Peter Mugridge

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To me this announcement makes no sense because what he seems to be claiming is a one-off £20M fund, but as far as I can see none of the items in the above list (possibly apart from the last one) appear to be one-off investments: They are all ongoing things that will need to be paid for every year and therefore require continuing funding to keep going.

The second item could reasonably be seen as a one off cost if it is to catch up on a slipped maintenance schedule?
 

WatcherZero

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Its temporary staffing to help through the construction disruption.

Similar one off spending taskforce program was done on the southern WCML in 2012.
 

Chrisgr31

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Its temporary staffing to help through the construction disruption.

Similar one off spending taskforce program was done on the southern WCML in 2012.

Construction of what? London Bridge is used as a constant excuse for poor performance on Southern however isn't that a red herring. Certainly it wasn't good at one stage, but ince the timetable was changed back in February on whenever it was there were no problems. Indeed the service ran well for several weeks and Southerns performance figures showed that Victoria was actually performing worse than London Bridge in fact look at their current figures and the Victoria performance is constantly worse than London Bridge.
 

WatcherZero

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London Bridge, Thameslink changes, transition of fleets. The design of the franchise was around managing an interim period between before and the improvements that were coming with the following franchise to be the one that really extracts the value from that work.
 

Clip

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None, although I expect the question was rhetorical?

I doubt it. It comes up so often that I'm sure people think there's some excellent railway men just sat around d waiting the call for help.

Like a railway fantastic 4 if you will :lol:
 

HH

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Do you know, I kind of thought that these sorts of things came as standard with the railways. I had no idea that they were optional extras that the government would have to pay for if a reliable train service was required.

Rapid response teams - these do exist where performance is poor, so you might be a little surprised that they are not already in play.

Accelerated train maintenance - accelerated from what? Trains are maintained to an agreed schedule, which ought to be fit for purpose. Southern actually have a very good record on train maintenance and they're getting piles of new trains. The only thing I can think of is that they bid a less robust interval between exams and this is going back to the old schedule!

Extra signal supervisors - no-one knows who these mythical beasts are, or what problem they're supposed to be fixing.

A series of measures to minimise the impact of bridge strikes - there are already measures to minimise these and rapid response teams too! Unless NR had planned to cut them and now they're back again.

If I'd read £5m to hire extra drivers and £15m to keep guards I'd have thought it would be more effective...
 

JonathanH

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The fact is that Southern / GTR have been led by passenger growth to put too many trains through East Croydon and preserve services from 'Sussex' destinations to both London Bridge and Victoria.

If they could simplify the timetable, thin out the service and remove lots of lflat crossing moves, it would all run a lot more smoothly.
 

HH

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The fact is that Southern / GTR have been led by passenger growth to put too many trains through East Croydon and preserve services from 'Sussex' destinations to both London Bridge and Victoria.

If they could simplify the timetable, thin out the service and remove lots of lflat crossing moves, it would all run a lot more smoothly.

In the past Southern put on more services than they needed because they were in competition with Thameslink. Logically when the next timetable comes in they would have rationalised things. HOWEVER a certain organisation, whose name begins with D and ends in T, specified that the same minimum number of services would have to run to Victoria and to London Bridge, so that won't happen (much).
 

bramling

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It would seem that things started to go downhill when they merged with Thameslink - I had absolutely no problems whatsoever with Southern until then, but after that things started going bad - I reckon I could count the number of Southern trains I've been on that were on time since then with my hands. Thameslink had a big issue with running on time ever since they started in 2014, but Southern have only had it since the merger.

Great Northern also started going downhill, rapidly so, as soon as Govia took over. Almost overnight things went bad (admittedly not all their fault), and it's just got worse and worse. It's recently arrived at the stage where the service has been basically unusable at weekends.
 

LBSCR Times

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Southern were going downhill long before the merger with Thameslink.
Crew diagramming was getting tighter and more complex.
Stock diagramming was the same, the suburban and mainline were getting more interwoven, coupled with the use of more complicated formations.
This also affected the maintenance regime too.
The timetable was designed for no incidents! As soon as one occurred, then late running started to build up due to the nature of the stopping patterns with the service.
In the meantime Thameslink was subject to all sorts of problems, of which only some were of its own making!
Since the join up of the two, diagramming has got tighter on Thameslink too, with less spare capacity to recover.
However, probably the biggest offender of causing delays is the state of the infrastructure on the Sussex area, with failures somewhere every day. Hardly a day goes by without some track or signal failure on the Brighton mainline, and with the level of service provided, disruption soon follows, requiring a reduction in the service too (as per the Service Recovery Framework 'agreed' between the TOCs and NR).
Once the service starts to fall apart, the only way of often recovering is to 'slash and burn', especially the more outer extremities of the network.
However, it could be argued too that this is a result of trying to win a franchise at all costs, and reduce overheads, be it crew, stock, maintenance etc.
 
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JonathanH

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Southern were going downhill long before the merger with Thameslink.
Crew diagramming was getting tighter and more complex.
Stock diagramming was the same, the suburban and mainline were getting more interwoven, coupled with the use of more complicated formations.
This also affected the maintenance regime too.
The timetable was designed for no incidents! As soon as one occurred, then late running started to build up due to the nature of the stopping patterns with the service.
In the meantime Thameslink was subject to all sorts of problems, of which only some were of its own making!
Since the join up of the two, diagramming has got tighter on Thameslink too, with less spare capacity to recover.
However, probably the biggest offender of causing delays is the state of the infrastructure on the Sussex area, with failures somewhere every day. Hardly a day goes by without some track or signal failure on the Brighton mainline, and with the level of service provided, disruption soon follows, requiring a reduction in the service too (as per the Service Recovery Framework 'agreed' between the TOCs and NR).
Once the service starts to fall apart, the only way of often recovering is to 'slash and burn', especially the more outer extremities of the network.
However, it could be argued too that this is a result of trying to win a franchise at all costs, and reduce overheads, be it crew, stock, maintenance etc.

To be fair, having been to local rail user group meetings, there is always pressure for longer trains, more frequent services and not to put the fares up.

Southern originally diagrammed the 377s separately in the Metro and Outer area but by mixing up workings they were able to squeeze a few more spare units into service.

They introduced 313s to move 377/3s to create more capactity in the London area and made a business case for the 377/6s to lead to a net gain in capacity even with the release of 456s but there has always been the prospect of 700s coming and the Thameslink changes which mean that they couldn't introduce yet more new units.

As you say the infrastructure, particularly around Balcombe seems to cause a lot of problems and the timetable is too intensive and complicated for it to work where there is a perturbation.

We will have to see what the consultation offers and whether some people are going to be disappointed by the necessary changes for simplification (eg no crossing moves at Stoats Nest Junction, optimised use of Windmill Bridge Junction etc)
 

LBSCR Times

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Southern originally diagrammed the 377s separately in the Metro and Outer area but by mixing up workings they were able to squeeze a few more spare units into service..

At the expense of reliability at times.....
05.02 Havant to Victoria (06.58)
07.10 Victoria to East Grinstead (08.01)
08.17 East Grinstead to London Bridge

So a problem west of Hove can mean a cancellation from East Grinstead!

Similarly in the evening, a working from Tonbridge to Victoria goes to Horsham via Epsom.

And that is before you consider if a train is formed of 4+3+3.377 or 2 x 5.377, or even dual voltage too, and yes, they get split, so if they split, then more problems!
 

jayah

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To me this announcement makes no sense because what he seems to be claiming is a one-off £20M fund, but as far as I can see none of the items in the above list (possibly apart from the last one) appear to be one-off investments: They are all ongoing things that will need to be paid for every year and therefore require continuing funding to keep going.

Typical short termism.

Hire some signal supervisors to sit in the signalling centre helping make regulating decisions and then get rid of them a few months later when the franchise is out is out of the news. Either the posts are needed, or they are needed to create the illusion of doing 'something'.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
I find it disgraceful that the UK government is essentially bailing out a private rail operator which has clearly failed to fulfill its role. Of course the higher ups will still receive their extortionate salaries. If I were a UK taxpayer I would be incredibly angry that public money was being spent to allow such an operation to continue. :|

I agree. When the FGW franchise got into trouble they were fined and the fine paid for the improvements. Here the taxpayer pays once for the franchise and then hands over another £20m when they fail to perform on their contract. Grayling sounds like he has been mugged off.

Does Network Rail not have licence conditions set by the ORR over performance - if there aren't enough MOMs or bridge inspectors the DfT are already paying NR for that too?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
The second item could reasonably be seen as a one off cost if it is to catch up on a slipped maintenance schedule?

It is the TOCs job to maintain the trains and if they are behind it is their job to catch up. Don't understand why Southern are allowed to pickpocket the taxpayer.
 

bramling

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At the expense of reliability at times.....
05.02 Havant to Victoria (06.58)
07.10 Victoria to East Grinstead (08.01)
08.17 East Grinstead to London Bridge

So a problem west of Hove can mean a cancellation from East Grinstead!

Similarly in the evening, a working from Tonbridge to Victoria goes to Horsham via Epsom.

And that is before you consider if a train is formed of 4+3+3.377 or 2 x 5.377, or even dual voltage too, and yes, they get split, so if they split, then more problems!

I can understand how and why we have come to the current situation of having so many variants/lengths of Electrostar, however somewhere in the future there will surely end up being some kind of simplification. I can't think of a neat way of ending up with 4-car outer suburban (i.e. 4,8 & 12-car) and 5-car inner suburban (i.e.5 & 10-car) though - assuming it's technically feasible.
 

Sunset route

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Typical short termism.

Hire some signal supervisors to sit in the signalling centre helping make regulating decisions and then get rid of them a few months later when the franchise is out is out of the news. Either the posts are needed, or they are needed to create the illusion of doing 'something'.

Commonly know as "train running controllers" (TRC) as there is not such a grade as "signal supervisor" as signaller supervisors are know as "Shift Signaller Managers" in the control centres that have them. We have already two per shift as it is at our place, so what a TRC is going to add to the mix God only knows. As nothing happens until the TOC TRC has an imput anyway, not unless the signallers go freelance and make their judgement calls based on knowledge, section times and how the equipment is working that day .
 

chriskeene

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Probably the signallers mouse is hovering over the icons for other signals at London Bridge or elsewhere and you can only set one route at a time, every signal from New Cross Gate / South Bermondsey to London Bridge has to be set individually for every train again and again and again. The signallers spend all day chasing their tails on that workstation.

As a daily commuter i had no idea this was the case, i always presumed that if things are working broadly as planned the routes will set themselves and the signaller just oversees and deals with problems and changes? Or if not, that the route could be set for a train at it's starting point and if it was a standard journey would be set for the entire journey?

Is the London Bridge area common, in that every signal needs to be set? or are other places a little less labour (clicking) intensive?
 

Muzer

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As a daily commuter i had no idea this was the case, i always presumed that if things are working broadly as planned the routes will set themselves and the signaller just oversees and deals with problems and changes? Or if not, that the route could be set for a train at it's starting point and if it was a standard journey would be set for the entire journey?

Is the London Bridge area common, in that every signal needs to be set? or are other places a little less labour (clicking) intensive?

It's common, but not universal. Some places need even more work to be done (cancelling the route when trains have passed on many non-computerised panels, makes the interlocking simpler not having that automatic --- or, in quieter places, having to manually set each set of points and signal like in a manual signalbox!), and some places have less (there's Automatic Route Setting or ARS which largely does as you describe).


Automatic signals, as their name suggests, don't need to be set manually at all, which is a big help. These are usually signals on plain lines with no points, only protecting against rear-end collisions with the train in front. Though not necessarily all bits of plain line are like this --- sometimes for operational/interlocking reasons these are manual!

There are also auto buttons for many routes, which make the route automatically reset itself (the same route, no intelligence based on which train is coming) until you manually cancel it. Again, some signals have them, some don't, and it's not always logical or obvious which will have them.
 
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