DfT proposes third class of tickets

[junglejames]

I was quite looking forward to First doing this on the WCML, and will one day see what the business service is like on the Chiltern trains with it.

Business Class is no different to 1st class. This is the confusing thing. It is basically there version of 1st class. But because they have no wish to charge extortionate fares, its not really possible to call it 1st class, just in case people tried to use it on other operators. Plus to stop people buying a 1st class ticket if they only intend to use Chiltern. Obviously no need to do that. They havent admitted such, but it would surprise me if that had something to do with it. Afterall, if you took away the free food from Virgin and EC (which is quite hit and miss by the sounds of it anyway), then Chiltern's Business Class is arguably the best 1st/ Business Class on the network.

 

[Deerfold]

Why did you quote the RMT under the headline DFT propose third class of ticket?

Why did you not quote the DfT comment "A DfT spokesman said: “It is completely untrue and deliberately misleading to claim that this Government wants to introduce ‘third class’ fares.
“It absolutely does not: the minimum level of service is standard class and the Government is only interested in proposals from train operators that would improve, at the very least maintain, existing standards.”

You misleading posting smacks of the worst kind of gutter journalism, which is deprecated in this forum.

The OP quite clearly described it as being a class between standard and first. He then quoted Mr Crow, describing his reply as "out-of-touch".

That's hardly misleading.

It's true the Telgraph headline *was* misleading, but the article seemed fine.

 

[Waldgrun]

Three classes on British trains in the 1950's where only found on Boat trains to the Channel Ports! Second class had been done away on most domestic services over thirty odds years between the 1890's & 1920's, still one can't expect the D.M. to know that, and to use an interior picture of a Drumm Battery railcar in Ireland as a typical 1930's third class vehicle, inspired!

Cor! Just spotted the article did have a bit about the Midland doing away with 3 classes in the 1870's!

 

[Deerfold]

This isn't even resurrecting a 1950s idea, Eurostar services have three classes and I think have had them for quite some time.

Eurostar have had Standard Premier and Business Premier for several years now. Both are in the same carriages (though passengers for the two classes will not be sharing but the quality and quantity of refreshments served varies.

The first time I travelled Standard Premier I was aware it fell some way short of the old service (and presumably the new Business Premier) but I wouldn't be prepared to pay the difference to Business Premier. I'd rather not be in Standard when I can help it though.

 

[maniacmartin]

Why did you quote the RMT under the headline DFT propose third class of ticket?

Why did you not quote the DfT comment "A DfT spokesman said: “It is completely untrue and deliberately misleading to claim that this Government wants to introduce ‘third class’ fares.
“It absolutely does not: the minimum level of service is standard class and the Government is only interested in proposals from train operators that would improve, at the very least maintain, existing standards.”

You misleading posting smacks of the worst kind of gutter journalism, which is deprecated in this forum.

I quoted the first few lines of the Telegraph article that I was linking to, which in most articles is supposed to summarise what the article is about. In this case the Telegraph's summary was clearly biased.

I described Bob Crow as out-of-touch as, from reading the article, his comment seems totally contrary to the quote from the DfT.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Business Class is no different to 1st class. This is the confusing thing. It is basically there version of 1st class. But because they have no wish to charge extortionate fares, its not really possible to call it 1st class, just in case people tried to use it on other operators. Plus to stop people buying a 1st class ticket if they only intend to use Chiltern. Obviously no need to do that. They havent admitted such, but it would surprise me if that had something to do with it. Afterall, if you took away the free food from Virgin and EC (which is quite hit and miss by the sounds of it anyway), then Chiltern's Business Class is arguably the best 1st/ Business Class on the network.

The thing that worries me with the likes of Chiltern's Business Class, as it is basically a TOC-only supplement, so if this sort of ticketing becomes more common place, then it will become impossible to get a through ticket supplement if using multiple TOCs. It also could reduce flexibility to return by a different TOC. If the DfT do go ahead with introducing a third class, then they need to make sure that it is called the same thing across all franchises and TOCs, and that tickets in this class are usable on all TOCs' services in the enhanced class.

 

[snail]

If the DfT do go ahead with introducing a third class, then they need to make sure that it is called the same thing across all franchises and TOCs, and that tickets in this class are usable on all TOCs' services in the enhanced class.

But is it enhanced or just First without the frills? It's only going to apply to intercity operators, your suggestion is adding complexity for the sake of it. Assuming this is sold as a 'Business Class', how many IC business journeys will involve more than one TOC anyway?

Using your Chiltern example they clearly think they can attract some people off Virgin with their £20 supplement for more comfortable seating. If everyone had to offer a similar class it would dilute the market and probably end up costing everyone more in the long run.

 

[Deerfold]

But is it enhanced or just First without the frills? It's only going to apply to intercity operators, your suggestion is adding complexity for the sake of it. Assuming this is sold as a 'Business Class', how many IC business journeys will involve more than one TOC anyway?

Using your Chiltern example they clearly think they can attract some people off Virgin with their £20 supplement for more comfortable seating. If everyone had to offer a similar class it would dilute the market and probably end up costing everyone more in the long run.

I don't think the idea is that everyone has to offer it, but that if it is offered, there's some consistency and tickets that are valid on different companies.

It's not unusual for my wife's business journeys to be Yorkshire - Slough, using two IC companies - and even a simple Edinburgh to Leeds return can involve TPE and EC in one direction and XC direct in the other - if they both have different supplements for a "middle class" it's going to get fiddly.

 

[wintonian]

Well we do have this. Look at the SWT refurbished 455s - a reduction in seats to increase the standing area. (Not that I think it's a bad thing, it's a sensible decision where there's no possibility of additional capacity - and perfectly acceptable for metro routes.)

During the conversation about it I was involved in we were talking about 444/ 450's although nobody else would have known that's what they were. In reality I think it was only from Basingstoke/ Southampton that was being discussed.

 

[Manchester77]

so what will it be?
IC routes
Standard - 2+2 seating, no free refreshments
Middle - 2+2/2+1 seating with free refreshments
First - 2+1 seating, enhanced meals and refreshments

?????/

 

[Max]

See post #2.

I assume this was renamed under GNER as I remember 'Standard Plus'. This was available Monday-Friday and could be found in the last coach of standard, where free tea and coffee and light refreshments were served. I believe it was only open to holders of full fare standard open tickets too?

On the matter in hand, I personally think it's a decent idea. Presuming it would be first class seating minus extra services such as refreshments it would be a good way of filling empty seats and allow people to have a more comfortable journey for a small(er) premium.

 

[transmanche]

Standard - 2+2 seating, no free refreshments
Middle - 2+2/2+1 seating with free refreshments
First - 2+1 seating, enhanced meals and refreshments

I'm guessing the 'middle' option could either be;
2+2 seating with free refreshments, (like the old Silver Standard) or
2+1 seating, no free refreshments.

Two very different offers, which would attract different types of passenger. But which one will make more money...

 

[Manchester77]

Was the silver standard the Electra hauled Leeds Pullman and stuff cos I've seen BBC documentaries and BR internal things and it was an IC225 set ŵith fe food for all?

 

[transmanche]

Was the silver standard the Electra hauled Leeds Pullman and stuff cos I've seen BBC documentaries and BR internal things and it was an IC225 set ŵith fe food for all?

IIRC just one standard coach for full-fare open ticket holders only. Available on peak services. Offering free tea/coffee & biscuits. (Possibly also at-seat service of food, but that wasn't free.) So basically, like first class at the time, but with 2+2 seating.

 

[Greenback]

Potentially, there is no end to the types of new tickets/offerings that could be introduced on inter city type routes:

1. Economy - you have to give up your seat if required by a holder of a higher category ticket
2, Premium Economy - you are entitled to a seat if one is available or if it is occupied by an economy ticket holder
3. Standard - you will receive a seat reservation if the ticket is purchased the day before travel and seats are available. You may physically remove Economy ticket hodlers form any seats they are occupying.
4. Silver Standard - As per Standard. Also entitles the holder to one complimentary hot drink and a biscuit
5. Gold Standard - As per Silver Standard, but the complimentary refrehsments are upgraded to two hot drinks and two biscuits, or one alcoholic drink and no biscuits.
6. Super Gold Standard - As per Gold Standard, but two alcoholic drinks or three hot drinks and CRISPS as well as biscuits.
7. Business Standard - Guaranteed seat where available, the power to physically remove Economy ticket holders from their seat, PLUS a sandwich, crisps, a biscuit and up to three hot drinks or one alcoholic drink.
8 Premium Super Business Standard - as Business Standard plus a hot snack instead of a sandwich
9. Economy First - A seat in First Class if available, but no freebies.
10. First - A seat in First if not required by passengers, sorry customers, holding higher category tickets. Able to take up seats in place of First Economy ticket holders.

And so on. All it needs is some imagination and the freedom needed from the dead hand of the DfT!

 

[dstrat]

Three classes:

First
Standard
Bog Standard (stand in the acessible toilet)

(The codes on the tickets:

1ST
STD
BOG

It's easy to understand. What could be better?)

Brilliant


In all honesty though, DfT needs to stop these mad hatter ideas and just do whats obvious - MORE CARRIAGES ON BUSY ROUTES.

 

[HH]

In all honesty though, DfT needs to stop these mad hatter ideas and just do whats obvious - MORE CARRIAGES ON BUSY ROUTES.

LOL. And we call DfT DafT.

Anyone else think it's that easy?

 

[yorksrob]

Well, there was the old idea a few years ago of one class for the executives, another class for the salesmen and middling professionals etc and a third class for their secretaries !

That said, bearing in mind the difficulties many TOC's seem to have finding a balance between revenue and occupancy between the existing two classes, it seems unlikely they'd be able to cope with getting three classes suitably filled for the right price all the time.

 

[HH]

I think the new proposed class (with various names but essentially a cut-down first class), is only suitable on long-haul routes. I haven't seen anyone proposing it on commuter trains.

 

[D365]

Potentially, there is no end to the types of new tickets/offerings that could be introduced on inter city type routes:

That's a lot of ideas you have, please don't tell me you want to see them all! Sounds like survival of the wealthiest to be honest... For want of better expression.

[/QUOTE]7. Business Standard - Guaranteed seat where available, the power to physically remove Economy ticket holders from their seat, PLUS a sandwich, crisps, a biscuit and up to three hot drinks or one alcoholic drink.

And so on. All it needs is some imagination and the freedom needed from the dead hand of the DfT! [/QUOTE]

Physical?! Not sure [certain] passengers will comply to that kindly!

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Three classes:

First
Standard
Bog Standard (stand in the accessible toilet)

(The codes on the tickets:

1ST
STD
BOG

It's easy to understand. What could be better?)

This might not be very popular in Bognor Regis, as those on the forum with knowledge of the three-letter station code system will understand...

 

[dstrat]

LOL. And we call DfT DafT.

Anyone else think it's that easy?

If its not easy to add or remove carriages to have the demand to be satisfied then surely the railway hasn't been set up very well.

If you routinely have people standing on services then the solution is to add more carriages. If a platform needs to be extended then so be it. Barring the beaurocracy around it, it really isn't a difficult task.

A railway that cannot adequately respond to its needs isn't working. Allowing HUNDREDS of millions of £s of profit to be spirited away by the 'TOCs' simply isn't acceptable when people are paying for the priviledge to be a sardine on their travels.

Please justify how you feel you disagree with that.

 

[HSTEd]

If its not easy to add or remove carriages to have the demand to be satisfied then surely the railway hasn't been set up very well.

If you routinely have people standing on services then the solution is to add more carriages. If a platform needs to be extended then so be it. Barring the beaurocracy around it, it really isn't a difficult task.

A railway that cannot adequately respond to its needs isn't working. Allowing HUNDREDS of millions of £s of profit to be spirited away by the 'TOCs' simply isn't acceptable when people are paying for the priviledge to be a sardine on their travels.

Please justify how you feel you disagree with that.

The railway is responding very well to its needs.
It runs the shortest practical trains on all routes.

This is how you maximise return on the investments made by the private equity groups that own everything now, this was the whole point of privatisation.

 

[dstrat]

Ah sorry yes of course, stupid me.

I somehow confused that in the present system it could be public service first, profit second.

 

[Deerfold]

Ah sorry yes of course, stupid me.

I somehow confused that in the present system it could be public service first, profit second.

Certainly not in the current system.

It takes a long time and a lot of money to procure and make a fleet of trains/carriages.

As we're currently a long way behind and keep putting off the orders for more that did appear to be going through it's tricky to produce them on demand.

It's expensive to extend platforms.

If you use the extra carriages to form more trains, you'll need to train more staff and possibly upgrade signalling to allow more trains to pass.

 

[dstrat]

If the space is already there and its railway land, why should it be so expensive? You lay your structure underneath to support the platform and then the concrete on top. And expensive relative to the excess profits made by the operators?

You say it takes a long time and money to put a fleet together. Well yes if you are talking about stock post-privatisation. But if the railway could produce vastly more stock in the days of BR than over periods than as has been for the past 15,20 years with less subsidies than now - something seriously is not working properly.

In all honesty its weak excuses if in times gone by they could have done it better with less money.

 

[Deerfold]

If the space is already there and its railway land, why should it be so expensive? You lay your structure underneath to support the platform and then the concrete on top.

And for safety don't run any trains whilst you're doing this...and it's not always railway land for enough room to put in more platforms - or there's a signal at the end of the platform that needs moving - and then resignalling needs to be done.

I'd like to see suggestions on how any of the platforms at Shipley station could be extended (and some peak time trains could do with being longer). https://maps.google.co.uk/maps?q=sh...3.833309,-1.77103&fspn=0.003532,0.004812&z=18

And expensive relative to the excess profits made by the operators?

You say it takes a long time and money to put a fleet together. Well yes if you are talking about stock post-privatisation. But if the railway could produce vastly more stock in the days of BR than over periods than as has been for the past 15,20 years with less subsidies than now - something seriously is not working properly.

On the whole, I'm not a fan of the current system. Costs have spiralled to improve anything on the railways. We had no new trains ordered for so long that almost the entire UK train building industry went out of business or moved abroad.

Now we need loads but the government is not prepared to pay for it - nor are short-term franchisees.

There are some orders in the works but they seem to regularly be delayed.

 

[snail]

If you routinely have people standing on services then the solution is to add more carriages. If a platform needs to be extended then so be it. Barring the beaurocracy around it, it really isn't a difficult task.

Wow! Why has no one got you to sort this out before now? You should offer your services to Network Rail and the DfT immediately.

 

[maniacmartin]

Wow! Why has no one got you to sort this out before now? You should offer your services to Network Rail and the DfT immediately.

Because nobody wants to pay for it

 

[GingerSte]

Just to add my twopenneth...

If there were an intermediate class in the style of GNERs "Standard Plus", I could well imagine it being a carriage with 2+2 seating, but all at tables instead of the airline style seats currently "enjoyed" by passengers.

Arrangements could also be made to put this carriage next to the bar (a la GNER) or have it served first by the trolley (especially on trains departing London or particularly big cities), and provide free tea and coffee for these passengers.

I think that might be popular enough amongst the laptop brigade (or which I consider myself part) to justify a small increase on the standard fare.

Or you could just put extra carriages on so people don't have to stand in the lavs for 2 hours. It's not fun.

 

[Eagle]

Or you could just put extra carriages on so people don't have to stand in the lavs for 2 hours. It's not fun.

Which extra carriages are these? (I've lost count of how many times I've had to say that...)