dk1
Veteran Member
Schoolboy error :roll: Funny how quick idiots like this backtrack on their remarks.
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DfT prepares to wage war on train drivers
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Schoolboy error :roll: Funny how quick idiots like this backtrack on their remarks.
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DarloRich
Veteran Member
If you want to change terms and conditions you sit down and negotiate in good faith and with clean hands. You don't go to a public meeting and start ranting on like some tin pot demagogue!
DerekC
Established Member
He isn't deficient or a liar, nor is he an idiot. He is a high powered (and highly paid) consultant on temporary assignment to lead the DfT franchising team out of the mire (polite word) it got into over the WC franchise. I very much doubt that a senior career civil servant would have made the same gaffe, but what it reveals is the thinking at senior political level within DfT. One of the first things an earlier ministerial appointee from the same gang wanted to know was how soon drivers could be eliminated by automation.
To be clear, no rail worker or union is against change or trying to stop it. But many industries have seen changes forced in at great expense to the work forces pockets, quality of life and in some cases health. That isn't right and just because it's been done elsewhere dosnt mean we should have to accept it.
Change could just as easily and effectively be brought in throu meaningful negotiations with the staff. But this shows the industry leaders refusal to ever do this. The DfT have never approached the staff or union about making any changes. They have just had their spokesman come out threatening to force the staff into strikes and break them. No matter how anti union you may be I can't see how any one can see that as in any way acceptable.
Rhondda Rudie
Member
So how do you explain his list of the conditions of train drivers,every one of which was wrong? Has to be ignorance of the subject he was speaking on or deliberate deception.
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He most certainly IS a liar. A blatant liar. Either that or he hasn't actually done his homework and was given dodgy info.
What he said was false. It was lies. It wasn't I. Anyway true. I can't see where he got the figure 60k from or the 3 day week from, neither are even remotely truthful, they appear to be completely random numbers plucked out the air.
It is a lie by definition. That isn't open for debate. It's fact-he misled everyone at that meeting with false info. He lied.
Rhondda Rudie
Member
Well said
The great Mrs T thought that privatising the railways was a step too far, she was 'persuaded' to step down so that Mr Major could be hoodwinked into doing the deed, a deed perpetuated by the next Labour government!
Mrs T gets plenty of stick but at least keep it factual!
3141
Established Member
Well if we are starting negotiations from a £60k salary and a 3 day week I want to know where my £15k has disappeared to and why am I working 2 days more a week than I should be and why am I working Sundays if I don't have to?
Or could it be that this utter A******e doesn't have a bloody clue what he is on about? And the DFT have the cheek to respond by saying he has a good record on improving services!
Or could it be that this utter A******e doesn't have a bloody clue what he is on about? And the DFT have the cheek to respond by saying he has a good record on improving services!
Sounds just like an HGV drivers job or a dockers job or a doctors?
What's needed is a modern, efficient railway that keeps costs low, trains long (and full - and preferably electric) and customers satisfied. This requires great people. It does not require people who think they are the best thing since sliced bread and don't want the Railway to change - it needs to and it will do. The current drivers' Gravy-train situation is obviously entirely untenable.
Government should have gone after drivers years ago rather than starting with the passengers. I'll avoid commenting on specifics because I don't have all the facts. Although what he said he said in the wrong way. Doesn't mean he was wrong.
If I were King for a day I might suggest that drivers should have easier shifts and work fewer hours - but at lower rates of pay and with rather more of them.
Government should have gone after drivers years ago rather than starting with the passengers. I'll avoid commenting on specifics because I don't have all the facts. Although what he said he said in the wrong way. Doesn't mean he was wrong.
If I were King for a day I might suggest that drivers should have easier shifts and work fewer hours - but at lower rates of pay and with rather more of them.
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Gareth Marston
Established Member
Sorry Jimm but my I pads predictive text sometimes wins!
However I smell a rat as to this story.
Firstly "it's too good to be true" look at the posts on this thread Christmas has come early for some.
Secondly no civil servant would have said that in public.
Thirdly the media doesn't seem to be running with it suggesting they have doubts. Getting a senior civil servant committing Career suicide in public would be jumped on.
Fourthly some of the right wing press would love the idea of brother bashing and be jumping up and down with glee. But there not.
Don't have all the facts?! Clearly you don't actually have ANY of the facts. Most pointless post so far and like this numpty from the DfT, completely factually inaccurate.
Do you have issues with reading or have you just not bothered to read this thread? It has been said multiple times already on this thread that no drivers are against change.
As for thinking we are the best thing since sliced bread...seriously? Clearly you have an agenda and are not going to let any facts get in the way of a silly little rant.
And please expand on the untenable gravy train you refer to? Oh, sorry I forgot, you don't know all (infact any) of the facts.
Why do the government need to "go after us"? Why can't they civilly approach us and cut a mutually beneficial and fair deal?
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I would like to point out to you that we do not get paid what we do for nothing. There was a driver recent who made a Facebook post listing all the things which we drivers have to have detailed knowledge on. The list was over a page long! You know it takes a year to train someone from the street to drive a train, that's how much there is to learn.
We all know that the way society is going to a 24/7 culture means that the railway is increasing going to be going towards a 24 hr service. The manner in which it is introduced is the critical thing and ensuring we are able to have a decent work/life balance rather than saying point blank you will work when the Government damn well wants you to and be happy about it!!
Rhondda Rudie
Member
Spot on.Since I started we are running double the number of trains with less rolling stock and fewer traincrew.Results like that aren't achieved without a huge increase in productivity.
And as usual for RUK instead of a sensible, safe discussion space we have someone going off the rails with ad hominem attacks just because they don't like somebody.
No I haven't read the entire thread - why do I need to? It was a general statement of my position, it is uncontroversial that some train drivers are rather overpaid (hence gravy train) and it was a pretty neutral assessment of the situation. You agree that there needs to be change, and you agree that the outcome of negotiation resulting in the change eventually and that this will be good for the industry. Seems we've plenty of common ground. I'm not sure what is being disagreed about so vehemently that there is a need for that kind of emotion. As for 'going after' the drivers well I agree, but they shamelessly go after my money for fares in most of their press releases, telling me that I and not they will be paying for the costs of the railway so...
I note the lack of recognition of my point that there should be more jobs and responsibilities decreased in order to reduce the risk of burnout and improve concentration and workplace safety, but hey don't worry about balanced argument.
No I haven't read the entire thread - why do I need to? It was a general statement of my position, it is uncontroversial that some train drivers are rather overpaid (hence gravy train) and it was a pretty neutral assessment of the situation. You agree that there needs to be change, and you agree that the outcome of negotiation resulting in the change eventually and that this will be good for the industry. Seems we've plenty of common ground. I'm not sure what is being disagreed about so vehemently that there is a need for that kind of emotion. As for 'going after' the drivers well I agree, but they shamelessly go after my money for fares in most of their press releases, telling me that I and not they will be paying for the costs of the railway so...
I note the lack of recognition of my point that there should be more jobs and responsibilities decreased in order to reduce the risk of burnout and improve concentration and workplace safety, but hey don't worry about balanced argument.
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You certainly do need to read the entire thread-your points have already been covered and answered. Re-making points which have already been discussed is rude and will only inflame a thread.
Claiming drivers are overpaid is far from a neutral assessment of the situation. If you had just half a clue what you were actually attempting to talk about your would realise we perhaps were not OVER paid but FAIRLY paid or perhaps WELL paid. Using the term OVER paid is designed purely to provoke a reaction. I'm assuming you have never spent a day of your life working as a train driver and are therefore basing your entire judgment of what we do for a living on anecdotes and 'things wot you read' in the papers...hardly a way to make an accurate assessment of if someone is overpaid.
I agree there should be more jobs. I don't see why responsibilities need to be decreased-apart from scrapping DOO I can't see how any other driver responsibilities can be decreased...perhaps 2 drivers-one to pull the power handle, the other the brake? Pleas do expand on what you mean as from what you posted so far you seem to be rather clueless about all this...
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cjmillsnun
Established Member
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- 3,275
Why should they go after drivers?
Look at the responsibility of a driver.
The have the lives of hundreds of people in their hands, have a tight timetable to run to and unsociable shifts.
As far as safety goes, it is them, the guards, bobbies, pway and dispatch on the front line. All of them under appreciated.
You call it a gravy train, but how many of you have that responsibility for your entire shift, day in, day out.
How many of you deal with people ending their lives in front of your eyes, with nothing you can do about it.
I have nothing but respect for drivers.
Unlike yours, my assessment is economic rather than emotional. It would be nice if we lived in a world where people are adequately rewarded for the job they do, but if that were the case we might be paying stay-at-home-parents thousands of pounds a year when actually they receive nothing. There is very little cost pressure on the Industry because of the unique way in which it is organised:
-Franchises are relatively short, so there isn't much time to gain any benefits from negotiating change or from doing more recruitment.
-TUPE is a barrier to the way in which other roles change over time
-Poaching is a serious problem that can drive up wages without getting better quality or improving efficiency. This can lead to expensive higher staff turnover, higher training costs and a two-tiered system of employment which really isn't conducive to adequately but efficiently remunerating a workforce.
All of this contributes to constant upward wage pressure which can also be very bad for drivers - see the accounts of overworking that have been mentioned. This is what my point about reduced responsibilities is intended to cover - we need more safeguards to prevent this kind of thing and one of them is lower wages in exchange for improved conditions and more robust rights. The other thing this will encourage is more drivers, less turnover and therefore more efficient training of new entrants. The way the industry is currently structured is not an environment where this kind of thing will happen, and that has led to some train companies paying way over the odds over time which makes the service too expensive to run. Most of this is about the privatisation model we have adopted because it created a situation in which drivers were in high demand and short supply, with the cost rocketing as a result. That is why you are paid so much - not because you do something superhuman.
-Franchises are relatively short, so there isn't much time to gain any benefits from negotiating change or from doing more recruitment.
-TUPE is a barrier to the way in which other roles change over time
-Poaching is a serious problem that can drive up wages without getting better quality or improving efficiency. This can lead to expensive higher staff turnover, higher training costs and a two-tiered system of employment which really isn't conducive to adequately but efficiently remunerating a workforce.
All of this contributes to constant upward wage pressure which can also be very bad for drivers - see the accounts of overworking that have been mentioned. This is what my point about reduced responsibilities is intended to cover - we need more safeguards to prevent this kind of thing and one of them is lower wages in exchange for improved conditions and more robust rights. The other thing this will encourage is more drivers, less turnover and therefore more efficient training of new entrants. The way the industry is currently structured is not an environment where this kind of thing will happen, and that has led to some train companies paying way over the odds over time which makes the service too expensive to run. Most of this is about the privatisation model we have adopted because it created a situation in which drivers were in high demand and short supply, with the cost rocketing as a result. That is why you are paid so much - not because you do something superhuman.
Show me somewhere where i have claimed we are paid what we are paid due to being superhuman please? I have ALWAYS stated on here we are paid what we are paid because of the competition and expense of training. But thank you for backing me up on that. Good to know you agree with me.
Of course one other real reason for the higher than average pay is that the railways are rarely affected by financial downturns like other industries are (often quite the opposite). So when other people have pay frozen the railway is largely unaffected and so allows staff pay to continue to (correctly) rise with inflation and increased productivity overtaking others who remain static or even see pay cuts.
As for a lot of the rest of your post, you need to do some serious research.
The basis of your assessment if you read between the lines is one of 'everyone else is paid terribly so you should be too'?
Exactly. The signals that cost hundreds of thousands, the stations that cost millions, the resignallings that cost many millions. There's plenty of bloat on the railway but I earn my money and I'll be damned if I'm taking a cut, fwiw I think my colleagues on the likes of Merseyrail and Arriva Wales are underpaid. They put the same effort in as me and my colleagues and face the same stresses and problems and do a damn good job.
Good idea, I am on at 03:40 on Friday, he can meet me at the signing on point for the true train driver experience!
No that's a complete straw man argument. The argument is that market conditions currently favour overworked and overpaid drivers (which, incidentally has led to and over the years been reinforced by DOO). I would like to see more drivers and lower barriers to entry and better, safer conditions with less pressure - in exchange there would be some consolidation of wages. There should also be smaller gradients between operators to help discourage poaching and longer franchise terms to encourage firms to invest more in their workforce. This will all be cheaper and better for everyone involved. Hopefully I have now managed to explain that a little bit more authentically than Mr Wilkinson!
Unless you're going to multi crew my trains then you won't change my job pressures.
No, nothing you say can be taken with any credibility whatsoever when you continuously state drivers are OVERpaid. We are not. Your continued use of that word clearly shows what you think of us and how strong your bias is. It proves you have a very blinkered and uneducated view of our job (which you have NEVER done).
I will accept we are well paid, we are highly paid and we are fairly paid. We are NOT overpaid. Continually stating that is not only rude but also inaccurate. You are in no position to judge if anyone is overpaid. I could not fairly describe anyone else of being overpaid in a job I have never done. You can not do so for my job either.
Until you retract the word overpaid and stop using it everything you say here is meaningless and lacks any credibility.
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Grrrr its annoying the way this site logs you out whilst you are typing a reply and then can lose it when you need to re log in.
Anyway I was saying that whilst there have been lots of comments saying the information was wrong no one has posted what the truth is. I did go along to the ASLEF site and its all as clear as mud! It appears that Southern drivers earn £47,500 pa for a 4 day week working 32 hours a day, with 6 weeks annual holiday (presumably equates to 4 weeks plus 2 weeks bank holidays) additional leave is earnt when a rest day falls on a bank holiday and it appears the rota is meant to work so they get 5 consecutive days off every 3 weeks.
There is no indication of what extras one is paid for working rest days etc nor what the average total pay is for a driver.
That doesnt sound too bad to me although it is offset by the unsocial hours, need to deal with irate passengers etc.
What I am also not sure of is what roles you might compare it with, certainly it might appear a better option than doing a degree for 3 years, graduating with huge debt and then start earning £20,000pa.
I am not particularly concerned over drivers pay, what more concerns me is whether all companies pay the same and whether all TOCs train drivers. Its slightly unfair if a TOC can afford to pay its drivers more because they are not runnng a training scheme.
Anyway I was saying that whilst there have been lots of comments saying the information was wrong no one has posted what the truth is. I did go along to the ASLEF site and its all as clear as mud! It appears that Southern drivers earn £47,500 pa for a 4 day week working 32 hours a day, with 6 weeks annual holiday (presumably equates to 4 weeks plus 2 weeks bank holidays) additional leave is earnt when a rest day falls on a bank holiday and it appears the rota is meant to work so they get 5 consecutive days off every 3 weeks.
There is no indication of what extras one is paid for working rest days etc nor what the average total pay is for a driver.
That doesnt sound too bad to me although it is offset by the unsocial hours, need to deal with irate passengers etc.
What I am also not sure of is what roles you might compare it with, certainly it might appear a better option than doing a degree for 3 years, graduating with huge debt and then start earning £20,000pa.
I am not particularly concerned over drivers pay, what more concerns me is whether all companies pay the same and whether all TOCs train drivers. Its slightly unfair if a TOC can afford to pay its drivers more because they are not runnng a training scheme.
Those figures are accurate. They also clearly show that drivers are not earning 60k for a 3 day week. Those figures are lies.
And to be clear, it's not a case of "dosnt sound to bad to me". This isn't a case of drivers wanting more or stating they are hard done by or underpaid. It's a case of a DfT official spokesman stating as fact blatant lies about what drivers are paid and hours worked. He didn't tell the truth-he lied. That's all there is to it. No one is claiming drivers are not well paid.
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So we have 10 drivers at £50k each. Total annual cost £500K.
If each of them do £10K worth of Overtime the annual cost would be £600K
Take on more Drivers and pay them less;
We now have 20 Drivers on £35K each. It now costs £700K. You now need to supply double the Uniform, double the kit, double the line managers, more lockers, larger messrooms......
Where's the saving.
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