DfT latest 'most overcrowded' train list for Autumn 2013 released

[Taunton]

That does surprise me, the Heathrow Trains always look to be almost empty!

I think you are looking at the Heathrow Express trains, which indeed suck much capacity out of the GWML with their every-15-minutes 9-car version of "nearly empty stock" for most of the time. The train in question is one of the less frequent Heathrow Connect trains which stop along the way, and which are full of local passengers.

If the locals were every-15-minutes 9-cars, and the Express wvwry-30-minutes 5-cars, that would be a much more balanced use of resources. Dream on though.

 

[aylesbury]

Do we know the least crowded train?

 

[IanXC]

Do we know the least crowded train?

I guess there must be some wider data collected in order to know that these are the top 10. Whether that includes every empty branch line up and down the country who knows!

Edit: there's a data table on the release which I'll go through first.

 

[northwichcat]

I guess there must be some wider data collected in order to know that these are the top 10. Whether that includes every empty branch line up and down the country who knows!

Edit: there's a data table on the release which I'll go through first.

The services monitored are those going towards major cities in the morning peak and those leaving major cities in the evening peak, so Helsby-Ellesmere Port, for instance, isn't monitored as part of the survey.

 

[IanXC]

The services monitored are those going towards major cities in the morning peak and those leaving major cities in the evening peak, so Helsby-Ellesmere Port, for instance, isn't monitored as part of the survey.

Hmm, so no way of knowing about an overloaded smaller service going to a smaller city, or a town. Think of a mythical 153 going to a medium size town...

Do you know if the cities listed are the sum total of the survey?

 

[northwichcat]

Every six months or so, when these stats come out, someone always seems to make the same claim that they only concern the main terminus, and you are quite right that the detailed explanation proves otherwise, as it has done for a number of years previously.

For anyone who hasn't followed the links:

Looking back at the responses to a previous Northern RUS it appears the way they work for 'South Manchester' services via Stockport is someone does passenger counts on all morning peak northbound services between Stockport and Manchester and all evening peak southbound services between Manchester and Stockport. They then do few selected services for the entire duration to find where the busiest and quietest loadings are on each line.

However, there's no guarantee if they note, for instance, the busiest section of the Mid-Cheshire line is Knutsford-Altrincham and that there are 30 standing on the 06:59 Chester-Manchester service leaving Stockport, that would also record the Knutsford to Altrincham loading for that service. They'd need to get an overcrowded loading figure on the Stockport-Manchester section to ensure the passenger numbers for the entire service are counted.
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Hmm, so no way of knowing about an overloaded smaller service going to a smaller city, or a town. Think of a mythical 153 going to a medium size town...

Do you know if the cities listed are the sum total of the survey?

If you want to see a train about as overcrowded as the ones mentioned on the list arriving at a small town, then you need to be at Knutsford station just before 08:00 on a weekday in school term time. MCRUA have recorded over 200 alighting the 07:17 Manchester-Chester at Knutsford, while there's around 70 who board before Knutsford, stay on beyond Knutsford - the service is booked for a single 150 but a 142 turning up in lieu is not unheard of. The majority of the people alighting at Knutsford are Knutsford Academy pupils and Barclays employees, who either are working at Radbrooke Hall or are attending a training course there.

Northern obviously know how crowded the train is as if they do a full revenue block at Knutsford at that time there's as many STM Security staff at Knutsford as there are for platforms 10, 11, 13 and 14 at Piccadilly combined.

 

[infobleep]

I can confirm that the 07:32 is diagrammed to be a 12-Car 450, the train is rammed after Walton-on-Thames. Other than running an additional relief service and encouraging customers to use that train I am not sure what else could be done to relieve the overcrowding on that service.

I doubt there is any paths available with the current infrastructure to run a relief train. The next train is the 7.47.

People just have to get up earlier or try travelling later.

If work doesn't allow them to arrive later or earlier then tough luck really.

 

[F Great Eastern]

It's nice to see the government calling on the operators to do more about overcrowding.

Of course they completely neglect to mention the amount of decisions they have made in the past to cut some of the very same companies rolling stock orders or allocations that they are now calling for to do more about overcrowding?

And of course, they couldn't mention how long and drawn out recent government procuring of trains has been (IEP, Thameslink) and the effect this is having on the whole country by delaying the cascade of much needed stock around the country as well as the operators who get said new build stock.

Insted we'll just make out it's the operators fault for hording all of those dozens of unused and perfectly serviceable trains and hundreds of carriages away and not using them due to shareholder greed.

It's a farce, it really is.

 

[Class 170101]

I doubt there is any paths available with the current infrastructure to run a relief train. The next train is the 7.47.

People just have to get up earlier or try travelling later.

If work doesn't allow them to arrive later or earlier then tough luck really.

On the SW route there isn't much if any space to run extra services on the core section, it will only be longer trains or indeed more densely packed trains (like the 378s). I think it was Tim Shoveller who once said they actually break Rules of the Plan to run as many services as they do into Waterloo in the morning peak.

 

[infobleep]

On the SW route there isn't much if any space to run extra services on the core section, it will only be longer trains or indeed more densely packed trains (like the 378s). I think it was Tim Shoveller who once said they actually break Rules of the Plan to run as many services as they do into Waterloo in the morning peak.

There may be trains not running to the full maximum length from Woking but after 7am I don't travel on any, unless they are short formed. I doubt any of the Woking to Surbiton stoppers are less than 12 coaches. Actually I don't know about the 7.47.

The Cobham line trains will be lengthen but they don't pass through Woking so won't help people on the Woking stopper.

 

[paulravuslante]

But HEx and Connect are owned by BAA arent they? So shouldnt it be them who take on the task. And as 455 said - they wont fit. So how much work needs to be done and at what cost?

Whatever needs to be done, BAA / Heathrow / Hex have shareholders so are loathe to spend money where they don't need to. Seeing as Crossrail has a licence to print money at the moment, they are just waiting for Crossrail to make any improvements to stations outside of the airport. FGW are also waiting for the Crossrail money train...

 

[route:oxford]

The question really is... Why is this data a year old?

If it is recorded on a daily basis, surely it can be updated daily too?

Far more useful to know what train was the busiest for the last few business days than which one was busy last year.

 

[Deerfold]

The question really is... Why is this data a year old?

If it is recorded on a daily basis, surely it can be updated daily too?

Far more useful to know what train was the busiest for the last few business days than which one was busy last year.

The trains aren't recorded every day. It's highly unlikely that all the surveys are on the same day.

 

[Taunton]

The trains aren't recorded every day. It's highly unlikely that all the surveys are on the same day.

What happened to Guards' Journals, where loading details and comments, also notes on the busiest stage of each journey, WERE recorded every day, in fact each trip. There were clerical staff back at HO who used to spend all day working through these written notes and analysing them.

 

[Deerfold]

What happened to Guards' Journals, where loading details and comments, also notes on the busiest stage of each journey, WERE recorded every day, in fact each trip. There were clerical staff back at HO who used to spend all day working through these written notes and analysing them.

I'm sure each TOC collates its own information (I know I've seen EC staff passing through trains counting passengers). But would you trust them to provide unbiased data?

 

[Sleepy]

What happened to Guards' Journals, where loading details and comments, also notes on the busiest stage of each journey, WERE recorded every day, in fact each trip. There were clerical staff back at HO who used to spend all day working through these written notes and analysing them.

Most TOC that have guards dislike them and do not take much notice of them unless delaying trains, no regular reporting system in place AFAIK.

 

[jon0844]

Have they ever done Finsbury Park to Moorgate in the peak?!

Bar the one or two 3-car services, once a train leaves Finsbury Park to Moorgate it's not too bad. Can't remember a time when I couldn't get on a 6-car train after changing there from a faster train from Hatfield. (And, yes, I could just get on Hatfield when it would be mostly empty - but I hate loads of stops).

A lot of people get off at Finsbury Park, and even more at Highbury & Islington for the easy interchange (although now I'd argue that with the new stairs, it's better to change at FPK all the time unless you need level access).

Coming back though, Moorgate services out can be rammed by Old Street and stay that way until a few stops beyond FPK where the train gradually gets emptier and emptier, with few people getting on. Until the new trains come, with open gangways and wider aisles (I assume) with none of the wasted space from the middle cabs and storage areas, I can't see that changing. However, there's a pretty good service frequency so missing one train isn't that big a deal.

I think FCC (GN) managed to get a lot of services off the top ten with the strengthening of services by obtaining more trains, fiddling about with the timetables etc - and of course Network Rail doing various upgrades. One thing FCC and NR, and perhaps the DfT (don't know) achieved that made a big difference during the last franchise.

That does surprise me, the Heathrow Trains always look to be almost empty!

Heathrow Connect can be VERY busy. I know as I've been on them quite a few times in the evening when they're basically commuter trains that happen to go beyond Hayes & Harlington to Heathrow. The train can be packed, so you need to board as soon as the train gets in to Paddington (especially with any bags) and by the time it gets to Heathrow you'll be one of the only people on it, plus perhaps the odd member of airport staff (after all, most people aren't 'Smart Londoners' to quote their advertising and pay the extra for HEX).

 

[Minstral25]

Just seeing a few holes in the collection process as I couldn't understand where overcrowded trains I travel upon are not included. Surely there must be many more

As it only includes Zone 1 stations in London, it means passengers getting off Victoria bound trains at Clapham Junction are not included. So the gross overcrowding between East Croydon and Clapham Junction are excluded - the services are much lighter between Clapham Junction and Victoria as large numbers of Waterloo/Overground/SWT passengers get off at Clapham.

Also because of this the West London Line trains which regularly you cannot get on are not included as they do not enter Zone 1.

 

[northwichcat]

Just seeing a few holes in the collection process as I couldn't understand where overcrowded trains I travel upon are not included. Surely there must be many more

Well hypothetically there could be a train with a high seating density which has no more room for passengers to board but hasn't reached it's standing allowance (with DfT using two blanket standing allowances) so it's not overcrowded but leaving passengers behind. :roll:

 

[swt_passenger]

As it only includes Zone 1 stations in London, it means passengers getting off Victoria bound trains at Clapham Junction are not included. So the gross overcrowding between East Croydon and Clapham Junction are excluded - the services are much lighter between Clapham Junction and Victoria as large numbers of Waterloo/Overground/SWT passengers get off at Clapham.

That's definitely not the case, according to the DfT's accompanying explanation. The figures are taken at intermediate stations if the trains are busier there than at the terminus. Have a look back at posts #10 and #11 in this thread by watcherzero and myself

Your incorrect assumption seems to come up in the discussion most times these stats are published.

 

[WatcherZero]

Yes, data is collected for services that are judged city centre services only (so a service which didnt enter zone 1 at some point is ignored), however the crowding figure is for the busiest point in the journey.

 

[tbtc]

Is this going to be more accurate in future (with doors at cameras, modern trains able to judge the weight of those on board)?

Also, since nobody has mentioned the Nottingham - London service, is this normally an HST or a Meridian? If the latter, what lenght? (since this is the one service on the list that may not see longer trains, if it's an HST)

 

[northwichcat]

modern trains able to judge the weight of those on board?

Not sure about that. A group of 11 year old school pupils can take up just as much standing space as an adult by the time they have schoolbags but the weight of them will be less than an adult.
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Also, since nobody has mentioned the Nottingham - London service, is this normally an HST or a Meridian? If the latter, what lenght? (since this is the one service on the list that may not see longer trains, if it's an HST)

According to DfT

Service has first class and train is at maximum length.

Presumably that means HST given a 7 car Meridian is 162m.

 

[Minstral25]

That's definitely not the case, according to the DfT's accompanying explanation. The figures are taken at intermediate stations if the trains are busier there than at the terminus. Have a look back at posts #10 and #11 in this thread by watcherzero and myself

Your incorrect assumption seems to come up in the discussion most times these stats are published.

Thank you for correcting me - still doesn't explain why trains that are regularly full don't get included although other have.

However your sharp attitude is unwelcome. I can tell by the volume of posts you make you are both knowledgeable and informed plus have a lot of time to read the details on many things. I don't have the time to do more than peruse the forum and perhaps miss items that may previously have been mentioned hence try to keep posts to items I have an interest in - which probably means I mention Redhill far to often. My apologies if that offends you. I'd much rather have more time to read and be better informed like you but a key use of this forum for me is that experts like you are around to point me in the right direction.

 

[Deerfold]

Thank you for correcting me - still doesn't explain why trains that are regularly full don't get included although other have.

However your sharp attitude is unwelcome. I can tell by the volume of posts you make you are both knowledgeable and informed plus have a lot of time to read the details on many things. I don't have the time to do more than peruse the forum and perhaps miss items that may previously have been mentioned hence try to keep posts to items I have an interest in - which probably means I mention Redhill far to often. My apologies if that offends you. I'd much rather have more time to read and be better informed like you but a key use of this forum for me is that experts like you are around to point me in the right direction.

The thing that annoys people is when they've already taken the time to explain clearly and yet, on a relatively short thread people ignore what they've written (it's different if people query what they've written and say "are you sure about that" or "but it looks to me as if...") but taking a stance that has already been discredited without comment will not tend to attract people willing to gently educate you.

 

[WatcherZero]

Not sure about that. A group of 11 year old school pupils can take up just as much standing space as an adult by the time they have schoolbags but the weight of them will be less than an adult.
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Presumably that means HST given a 7 car Meridian is 162m.

Dft Is encouraging and occastionally requiring automated counting equipment to be installed on rolling stock, it could take one of three forms. Weight sensors calculate load, now wouldnt be perfectly accurate due to people varying weight/luggage but can produce a reasonably accurate estimate. Secondly infrared cameras count heat signatures passing through the door, again can be confused by two people very close, large animals or someone being carried. Thirdly film cameras (sometimes supplemented 2nd camera or laser to provide depth) count visible humanoid shapes, usually heads.

 

[Deerfold]

Dft Is encouraging and occastionally requiring automated counting equipment to be installed on rolling stock, it could take one of three forms. Weight sensors calculate load, now wouldnt be perfectly accurate due to people varying weight/luggage but can produce a reasonably accurate estimate. Secondly infrared cameras count heat signatures passing through the door, again can be confused by two people very close, large animals or someone being carried. Thirdly film cameras (sometimes supplemented 2nd camera or laser to provide depth) count visible humanoid shapes, usually heads.

There's a prototype bus on the London network that attempts to work out how many seats are free on the upper deck - that uses the standard CCTV cameras (but works on the basis of shapes) and an additional 2 cameras. If planned from the initial bus unstall it could work with the standard number of cameras.

 

[Taunton]

There's a prototype bus on the London network that attempts to work out how many seats are free on the upper deck - that uses the standard CCTV cameras (but works on the basis of shapes) and an additional 2 cameras. If planned from the initial bus unstall it could work with the standard number of cameras.

Equipment to do this has been on the market for many years, generally by counting people treading on the steps as they go up and down the stairs, so some clever pattern recognition of heads on CCTV cameras looks like a solution in search of a problem .......

 

[route:oxford]

Equipment to do this has been on the market for many years, generally by counting people treading on the steps as they go up and down the stairs, so some clever pattern recognition of heads on CCTV cameras looks like a solution in search of a problem .......

It's not going to be difficult to use the CCTV images and analyse it using face recognition software.

Even the cheapest of the cheap digital camera can do that nowadays.

Slightly more expensive software will be able to recognise on-train staff and monitor their location throughout the train and report back for performance management purposes.

 

[TheBigD]

Not sure about that. A group of 11 year old school pupils can take up just as much standing space as an adult by the time they have schoolbags but the weight of them will be less than an adult.
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According to DfT



Presumably that means HST given a 7 car Meridian is 162m.

The 0630 NOT-STP is 2 x 5 car 222... 100 first and 380 standard plus a handful of tip up seats... Service stop at Luton at 0757 which is where I suspect the problem is...