DfT "going back on new carriages promise"

[MCR247]

But the thing with the south, is that during the day, Southern can have an 8 car 377 running a Horsham - Bognor portion of a London - Pompey train, whereas up north we have overcrowded 158s on Liverpool - norwich

 

[whoshotjimmi]

But the thing with the south, is that during the day, Southern can have an 8 car 377 running a Horsham - Bognor portion of a London - Pompey train, whereas up north we have overcrowded 158s on Liverpool - norwich

MCR247 makes a good point. London services have a huge peak flow in and out as does the tube. During the rest of the day, it is very hard to justify the capacity. The situation is a little different elsewhere in that some trains are running full to overcrowded throughout the day: Leeds - Manchester and Liverpool - Norwich to name a couple.

It is very easy to get sucked into talking about North vs South and pacer replacements and I understand fully why that has happened. But that is not the real issue here. The fact is that the DfT have made a pledge to provide extra carriages to help overcrowded routes in the North and, for whatever reason, local transport authorities are now concerned that this is not happening. You cannot just go around saying one thing and doing another. The government are forever bleating on about getting people out of cars and onto public transport for all kinds of reasons (congestion, environment etc etc) but do not appear to be fully committed to making that happen.

The news article I referenced had a video of the Metro Chief Exec who summed it up perfectly by questioning how they could drive people to use trains when there are no trains for them to go on.

 

[MCR247]

But the thing is, the south gets a priority because London is in the south, if it was where Manchester is, and manchester where london is, we'd end up with 3rd rail and 377s/395s/444s etc with the south getting pacers and cast off. We could have 5 car desiros on Nottingham- Matlock, and 12 car electrostars on Liverpool - Norwich & maybe stanstead if it splits somewhere

 

[whoshotjimmi]

It's quite possible and I firmly believe that if the investment was made, the railway usage would rise dramatically. But, as I said, in this instance the North South thing isn't the problem. The investment in extra carriages was planned but for whatever reason has, so far, not been forthcoming.

 

[Matt Taylor]

You'll see this every day at Clapham in the peaks:

http://matthew-taylor.fotopic.net/p59389503.html

Thats a 12 car 377 which is literally full up, and its the same on the SWT side with 8 car 455s running at 3 minute headways. The investemnt is clearly needed now, and that means infrastrucure not just trains.

 

[ukrob]

You'll see this every day at Clapham in the peaks:

http://matthew-taylor.fotopic.net/p59389503.html

Thats a 12 car 377 which is literally full up, and its the same on the SWT side with 8 car 455s running at 3 minute headways. The investemnt is clearly needed now, and that means infrastrucure not just trains.

Nobody has said otherwise. What people are saying is that the north needs investment, not that the south doesn't.

To give a 8 car train 50% extra capacity you need another 4 carriages.

To give a 2 carriage train (which many peak services are in the north), you only need 1 extra carriage.

Incidently, you see that OUTSIDE of the peaks here. And it isn't quite as annoying if you have a train every 3 minutes as opposed to every 30.

 

[tbtc]

All the North want are a few projects, like Skipton to Colne

That wouldn't even be on my top 100 of improvements to be made to trains in northern England...

 

[asylumxl]

Where are you talking about? Excluding the underground, i don't know of any. Not even FCC peak trains are that frequent.

Also, Devon and Cornwall have worse Pacers, which are infrequent, and they are considered south.

 

[87015]

The biggest question is: would you like your fares to be increased to "Southern" levels to fund all this investment that is required in new trains and services:

Tring-Euston (30 miles) weekly season: £82.30
Doncaster-Leeds (30 miles) weekly season: £43.20

Lewes-London Terminals (50 miles): £89.30 (is a £82 Victoria only rate)
Lancaster-Man Stations (51 miles): £66.50

 

[thelem]

The trouble on here is everyone sees the evidence of over crowding near them, and wants that to be fixed. I would hope that with all the planning that goes into rail investment the projects chosen are though the best return on investment.

Having said that, a few extra carriages are "cheap" compared to building a new line across London, so you do wonder why they can't lengthen more trains where the infrastructure supports it.

 

[ukrob]

The biggest question is: would you like your fares to be increased to "Southern" levels to fund all this investment that is required in new trains and services:

Tring-Euston (30 miles) weekly season: £82.30
Doncaster-Leeds (30 miles) weekly season: £43.20

Lewes-London Terminals (50 miles): £89.30 (is a £82 Victoria only rate)
Lancaster-Man Stations (51 miles): £66.50

I'm sure people could find fares to backup any argument anywhere in the country.

 

[asylumxl]

its just a simple fact that in london and the home counties, transport is more expensive.

When I travel to the north I'm amazed at how cheap it is to go quite far. Work out the cost per mile for nearly any journey and you'll see...

For me:
London to penzance is about 23p per mile...
London to Luton is about 74p per mile...

That says everything.

 

[WillPS]

Ticket prices have more to do with staffing costs than investment costs, surely?

 

[bluenoxid]

Erm, yeah two subsidised rail services. A great comparator.

Cost of living and the economy generates more money.