DfT "going back on new carriages promise"

[whoshotjimmi]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/west_yorkshire/8129104.stm

Suddenly, all the hope and optimism that Northern areas were getting a boost looks thinly veiled.

It can hardly be described as surprising. What these idiots can't understand is that people WANT to use the trains but CAN'T because they don't exist. Doesn't take Einstein to come up with a theory on that one.....

 

[bengley]

tories

 

[asylumxl]

That's crowded? Not seen a rush-hour train into London obviously.

 

[F Great Eastern]

Haha, thats hardly a crowded train, they should have been on FCC a few years ago, now that was crowded and far worse than that.

If it is true about the extra trains then obviously that is bad news

 

[whoshotjimmi]

As a reply to the London commuters, it should be pointed out that the service in the film is hourly and not one of the more crowded services on the Northern network. The Leeds - Doncaster local serves well as an argument for the improvement of local services but I would not have used it as an example of an overcrowded train. A large number of services going into and out of Leeds, Manchester and Sheffield every day are a damn sight busier than that one. It should also be noted that the larger stations on that particular line (Leeds, Wakefield and Donny) are served by 2 Intercity an hour.

I hear a lot from southern commuters about the service they get and the overcrowding problems but, frankly, the service level into the capital is excellent. The public transport mode share in London and the SouthEast is much higher than elsewhere and it is all due to the lack of resources in areas such as Yorkshire and Manchester.

As I said originally, people want to use public transport here, but are unable to as it does not exist. If you have a train every 5 mins ie London, people can quite reasonably expect to turn up whenever they want and not wait too long for a train. It doesn't quite work like that here. As a result, people are put off using the railway. People would more likely put up with overcrowding if they could travel more freely. Sadly, the exisiting number of services coupled to full trains will not encourage people into the railway.

On a final note, wherever capacity has been increased across the Northern and TPE network, it has been filled immediately. You can talk about how crowded services are in London all day if you like. But it is not relevant to the situation across the North.

 

[Jordy]

You should see peak hour out of Manchester Victoria, now that is overcrowded

 

[asylumxl]

On a final note, wherever capacity has been increased across the Northern and TPE network, it has been filled immediately. You can talk about how crowded services are in London all day if you like. But it is not relevant to the situation across the North.

Yes, totally irrelevant. Cos they TPE have 170 and 185s. Obviously units such as 313s, 317s, 319s and 321s used in London commuter services are far superior in terms of ride, ambience, comfort and are much more modern.

People up north should get used to it, as service improves so will demand, it's inevitable. The more money gets used, the more it will grow.

 

[F Great Eastern]

The thing with Transpennine Express is they have been a victim of their own success, which has not been helped by the government.

For all the people moaning that National Express is a proof that the privatisation system is failing, Transpennine Express is totally the opposite.

 

[richa2002]

Who's to say that Transpennine's growth wouldn't have happened under public ownership?

 

[F Great Eastern]

Who's to say that Transpennine's growth wouldn't have happened under public ownership?

You could play devils advocate and say about the TOC's with falling passenger numbers, whats to say that wouldn't happen with public ownership as well. But I in the end tend to base things on facts rather than if's or buts.

 

[daccer]

There is no point always getting side tracked by the nationalised versus privatised railway argument. It is a moot point as no one will ever know the answer. it is also a fact that those who wish for a return to BR are dreaming - we are never going to see another fully nationalised railway again - we have had a labour govt for how long now and they have had a chance to re nationalise the railways as franchises have come up for renewal but they refuse to even entertain it. The Tories are coming and they certainly wont so we must forget about re-nationalising the railways as it aint going to happen.

The argument about North v South is also irrelevant as it is also a done deal. The South has the money in this Control Period - it is already allocated. What little is going to the regions needs to be fought for now as the economic crisis is an issue and if the DFT needs to balance the books it will not do it in London with all those vocal commuters. It will do what it always done and stick it to the regions.

However my point is this. At the end of this five year period there will have been a massive increase in capacity in the South East. This is happening at a time when demand is falling off due to the economic woes in the City and London as a whole. There may be a time in the next five years when capacity is actually exceeding demand. Then will be the time to strike. In the next Control Period there cant be any more jumbo London projects - they will have all been done. All that money that is currently going into Thameslink and Crossrail and the Tube and 12 car trains etc will have been spent - it wont need spending again. Only when the South East is satiated will money be released for the regions. So I am sorry for the North and for the obvious suppressed latent demand in these areas but your time will come but not until the fat cats of the South have had their fill and can eat no more.

 

[richa2002]

You could play devils advocate and say about the TOC's with falling passenger numbers, whats to say that wouldn't happen with public ownership as well. But I in the end tend to base things on facts rather than if's or buts.

What you say is totally true so your statement that Transpennine Express is an example of the privitisation system succeeding depends on the 'if' of whether that its sucess is down to it being a private company instead of public.

 

[F Great Eastern]

Transpennine Express is doing a good job now and has grown passenger numbers since it took the franchise on - FACT, there's not any if's and but's in there, there are facts to back it up. Therefore it can be considered a success.

Transpennine Express being the same IF it was in public ownership is an if because nobody knows if it would be or not, therefore it is not certain and has no facts to back it up as it relates to what if this was the case and that was the case.

Anything else about if it is down to being a private company is subjective and related to it's and buts, We can only go with the facts we have and this is the way any train operator should be rated, private or public.

To sum it up,
Transpennine Express is a Private Company. FACT
Transpennine Express has by far exceeded what was expected of it passenger growth wise - FACT

 

[87015]

Where is all of First's extra investment in extra carriages to cope then? Oh thats right, the government has to pay for anything like that, can't have the TOCs risking any of their own dosh. A near bankrupt government is hardly going to have new carriages for loss-making branchlines at the top of its list whether they are in Cornwall, Kent or Yorkshire.

 

[Metroland]

http://business.timesonline.co.uk/tol/business/industry_sectors/transport/article6620768.ece

 

[F Great Eastern]

Where is all of First's extra investment in extra carriages to cope then? Oh thats right, the government has to pay for anything like that, can't have the TOCs risking any of their own dosh. A near bankrupt government is hardly going to have new carriages for loss-making branchlines at the top of its list whether they are in Cornwall, Kent or Yorkshire.

What? the 250M invested in the class 185s? The same order that the UK government reduced because they thought that the original order was too many. now it's actually been found out that actually First were right and they needed more than the Government would authorise? Hardly their fault.

FGW spent 63M on refurbishing their HST's and bought some of their own outright from the leasing company, 11M on refurbishing the South West Fleet on FGW. Scotrail have spent a bit on the 322s, FCC have spent money on the 317s and have acquired every bit of stock avaliable to them, fHT purchased new 170s and 222s. I fail to see your point?

If we go even further back FGE spent 80M on the Class 360 desiros. Again the order was cut by the UK government from the bigger one that was originally desired. There is a certain other operator who you could throw the allegation that they never spend anything on rolling stock, but to say First never do is laughable.

 

[audigex]

To be honest, I doubt many northerners will be shocked by this, we've been sidelined, ignored and deprived of cash for a long time. I come from a town where the only major investment I've seen recently was one new building and an un-wanted one-way system.

As a regular user of both First TPE and Northern, I've got to say that I've never had major reason to fault either, other than lack of capacity (outside their control). The TPE services between manchester and scotland were a silly idea (3 cars is just simply not long enough), but the trains are generally on time and just about scrape enough seats a lot of the time. Northern struggle buy with a handful of 156 and 153 units in my area, with some lovely 142s to back them up. TPE have their 185s which are simply a coach too short.

Fact is, Northern have everyone else's leavings - they only get stock when
1) It cascades down from another operator
2) It's rejected by another operator and borrowed before someone else snaps it up (180s, anyone?)

The southwest has newer, faster trains and more of them - the few "decent" services the north gets are purely by virtue of the WCML and ECML services between London/the midlands and Glasgow/Edinburgh. It's pathetic.

Complain all you want about overcrowded london commuter services, but at least it's air conditioned and smooth - try fitting 160 people onto a non-air conditioned, diesel, bus-based class 142 (ie, 100 seats and no bogies) on a very hot July day for the best part of 2 hours. Then you can truly be irritated by a train, it's not comfortable in any way shape or form - even if you get a seat.

 

[asylumxl]

Since when is a 319 air conditioned?

 

[Max]

fHT purchased new 170s and 222s

I'm fairly sure these were on order before First took control. All First have served to do is stick their livery all over the trains and bring in unreliable 180s, or this is how it seems. Look at today's appalling service provision: http://www.hulltrains.co.uk/travelnews.php?id=174!

 

[87015]

What? the 250M invested in the class 185s? The same order that the UK government reduced because they thought that the original order was too many. now it's actually been found out that actually First were right and they needed more than the Government would authorise? Hardly their fault.

FGW spent 63M on refurbishing their HST's and bought some of their own outright from the leasing company, 11M on refurbishing the South West Fleet on FGW. Scotrail have spent a bit on the 322s, FCC have spent money on the 317s and have acquired every bit of stock avaliable to them, fHT purchased new 170s and 222s. I fail to see your point?

So apart from a few power cars, brought for peanuts as surplus, its been all ROSCO investment, which is nicely underwritten by the government. Like I said, what is stopping your friends First turning up with a big cheque in Germany tomorrow and ordering some desiro coaches of their very own?

All the bus bandits are as bad as each other.

 

[MCR247]

I'm fairly sure these were on order before First took control. All First have served to do is stick their livery all over the trains and bring in unreliable 180s, or this is how it seems. Look at today's appalling service provision: http://www.hulltrains.co.uk/travelnews.php?id=174!

The 170swere order before first came along and ruined it, as they didnt have first badges on, unlike 222s & 180s

 

[F Great Eastern]

Just having a First Badge on a train is not going to ruin it. Remarks like that are just childish whether something has a particular badge on it doesn't bother me in the slightest, but the quality of the service does.

When first took it over it was four services a day, and it is now seven including a bargain last journey of the day, so they've obviously done something right, and the 222's were rated very highly, in a recent survey they were rated the most comfortable rolling stock on the network!

However things are going VERY badly now and I'm not going to deny this. the question is were they forced to take the 180s. If they were then thats hardly their fault. If however it was their choice to get rid of the 222s and obtain the 180s, then that was silly, although saying this, it would be hard to expand the service without attracting more rolling stock and I suspect thats why they went for the 180s rather than two different types.

 

[Mojo]

So apart from a few power cars, brought for peanuts as surplus, its been all ROSCO investment, which is nicely underwritten by the government. Like I said, what is stopping your friends First turning up with a big cheque in Germany tomorrow and ordering some desiro coaches of their very own?

Probably the fact they haven't got any money...

 

[thefab444]

One reason against TOCs buying their own stock is, when they inevitably lose the franchise (too much common sense), they'll be lumped with this useless stock which they'll have to sell to a ROSCO/the new TOC, obviously at a depreciated price. So why bother? The pax will put up with overcrowding, the shareholders won't put up with a lower dividend! Another reason why we need longer franchises...

 

[Waverley125]

'the south has the money for this control period'. Goddamit the south has the money for every f*****g control period.

I see your 313, 317, 319, 321 and raise you a 378, 450, 444, 375, 376, 377, 357, 360, 350.

So in the last 9 years you've had 9 new types of train introduced. Also, in the 365s, 165s & 166s you have some of the best older trains in the country.

There are some 170s & 185s in yorkshire, but even these are massivley too short & are overcrowded all the time. We also have 142s, 144s, 150s, 153s, 155s, 156s & 158s, many of which have not been refurbed since they first entered service. Personally I also think the 14x's are not safe and should not be on the rails, but hey, you're going into london so i guess that doesn't matter.

 

[Burkitt]

One reason against TOCs buying their own stock is, when they inevitably lose the franchise (too much common sense), they'll be lumped with this useless stock which they'll have to sell to a ROSCO/the new TOC, obviously at a depreciated price.

Surely they would be able to sell the stock to the new TOC at a massively inflated price? They would have a monopoly on trains available for the franchise, so they could basically threaten to go home and take their trains with them unless the new operator paid whatever extortionate price they felt like charging.
In fact the incumbent owning the trains would probably make any competing franchise bids unfeasibly expensive, due to the need to purchase an entire new fleet of stock via a ROSCO available for immediate service, or buy/lease it at an extortionate price from the old TOC. Thus any TOC which purchased its own fleet could have a monopoly on that route almost indefinitely.

 

[tbtc]

What? the 250M invested in the class 185s? The same order that the UK government reduced because they thought that the original order was too many. now it's actually been found out that actually First were right and they needed more than the Government would authorise? Hardly their fault

As a private company, of course First were able to risk some of the shareholder's precious money to invest on the "missing" coaches themselves, but of course, we all know what happened...

...so we have the daft situation of First planning to run five three coach trains between Manchester and Leeds each hour, with no corridor connections, when what we really need are longer trains (with the ability to join them together properly)...

 

[ukrob]

'the south has the money for this control period'. Goddamit the south has the money for every f*****g control period.

I see your 313, 317, 319, 321 and raise you a 378, 450, 444, 375, 376, 377, 357, 360, 350.

So in the last 9 years you've had 9 new types of train introduced. Also, in the 365s, 165s & 166s you have some of the best older trains in the country.

You do know that they mostly replaced vast quantities of 40-50 year old stock which HAD to be replaced, right? All the classes you mention (apart from the first four) will still be running in 40 years time when Southerners are moaning that the north gets all the investment.

Oh, and I'm from the north, but we have to look at it without being biased.

This post in no way should be read as suggesting that the south should get more spent on it than the north, or that new stock for the north should be delayed or cut.

 

[me123]

I'm from Scotland, and I'm happy with investment up here. But the South-east really is disproportionately getting too much money. All the North want are a few projects, like Skipton to Colne, which come at a fraction of the cost to things like High Speed 1 and Crossrail. The pacers will soon need replacing as well, but I've not heard any talk of that. The North suffers from chronic overcrowding in areas, and I'm going to include Liverpool-Norwich in this category.

Investment must be evenly distributed. I fail to see that the current scenario is fair whatever way you look at it. Replacing the pacers and enhancing the Liverpool-Norwich services would cost relatively little and would have immense benefits for current passengers, future passengers and the local economies; there's life outside London, you know.

 

[87015]

Investment must be evenly distributed. I fail to see that the current scenario is fair whatever way you look at it. Replacing the pacers and enhancing the Liverpool-Norwich services would cost relatively little and would have immense benefits for current passengers, future passengers and the local economies; there's life outside London, you know.

Its not fair, but a new train down south is far more likely to be able to turn a profit than a pacer replacement. The north gets far more subsidy to support services than the south - suppose that could all be equalled out aswell in the name of fairness Our wonderful system is all about making money, and replacing pacers or sprinters on branchlines isn't the way to do that compared to something to work commuter lines out of London, just look at the ching for season tickets in and out of there.