DfT change of Terms and Conditions

[jefferson]

I’m thinking of moving from the Fire Service to the Rail Service. I know terms and conditions are very good at the minute in Rail but now DfT have their hands on the industry, I’m concerned it’ll all change just like it has in Fire.
Has anybody got any inside track information on this, specifically regarding pensions and hours?
Thanks

 

[1D53]

Current T&C and pensions/hours will vary wildly dependant on the company you're at.

As to what the future holds who knows? All I know is the unions will fight to retain T&C's...

 

[jefferson]

Current T&C and pensions/hours will vary wildly dependant on the company you're at.

As to what the future holds who knows? All I know is the unions will fight to retain T&C's...

It will most probably and hopefully be Northern Rail. Thanks for your response

 

[StandFromUnder]

I'm also in the same boat, escaping the government, only to end up.... back with the government.
Having seen how they destroyed the FS over the last few decades, getting their hands on trains is highly concerning.

The Unions may well be strong, but the government will change the type of people you recruit whilst at the same time making the sector less of a job for life.
The effect, will over time, will weaken the Unions as the newer people, won't care as much, as they won't plan on staying much longer than 5-10 years at best.

This is exactly what they have done to the FS. "Modernisation" was basically demolishing Union strength from within.

 

[Horizon22]

Pensions and hours will vary wildly dependent on your role, company (and even varies within companies), length of service etc.

The railway industry has fairly strong unions (RMT and ASLEF) and whilst no doubt some change is on the horizon, harmonisation and change has been attempted before which can be described as only partially successful (at best). What these changes may be is highly speculative at this point. There are still quirks that exist which haven't been resolved since privatisation, which was now 30 years ago.

 

[dk1]

I wouldn’t worry too much mate. As traincrew our unions are very strong and very protective over such things. The chance of any change that to the detriment of our T&Cs are very slim indeed. Look at it this way. During the 1990s there was fear that the privatised industry wouldn’t tolerate the agreements we had back then, but in reality it just got better as a whole especially when it came to pay thanks to the competitive nature it created. Changing any of that now will be just so complex.

 

[jefferson]

I like the positivity. I can see where you’re coming from regarding the complexity of trying to streamline and govern all the different T&Cs. Fingers crossed nothing will change too much, for the worse obviously, in the next 15yrs.
I’m hoping the pension works out better than the fire pension too.

 

[dk1]

I like the positivity. I can see where you’re coming from regarding the complexity of trying to streamline and govern all the different T&Cs. Fingers crossed nothing will change too much, for the worse obviously, in the next 15yrs.
I’m hoping the pension works out better than the fire pension too.

I am so sure it will. Nobody I know currently employed on the railway shows any sign of concern.

 

[Roger1973]

Without knowing the specifics (and subject to the disclaimer that I'm not a lawyer or anything like that)

From what i can see (I'm not a railway worker either but considering it) the franchises moving in to public ownership is a change of ownership of the existing company, so that doesn't even count as a change of employer, so pay / terms + conditions don't change. (nor does 'continuous service' for things like redundancy pay entitlement.)

When staff are transferred from one employer to another, there is law (it's called TUPE if you want to research) which means employees keep existing terms and conditions and pay rates and continuous service. (the law is slightly fuzzy round the edges especially when it comes to detail, though, and it doesn't cover pension schemes.)

Employers can seek to change terms and conditions, irrespective of TUPE transfer, but can't just impose it with no consultation - and in a unionised environment, not without a fight. In extreme cases, some employers will do the 'fire and rehire' thing, but not sure that would get through on the railways, and there are suggestions that the current government intends to make this illegal.

There is an urban myth that TUPE protection lasts for a fixed amount of time, but this isn't law. Although the sooner after a transfer that new employer seeks to change conditions, the easier it is to argue that it's a direct result of the transfer.

Others will have direct experience of what's happened when rail franchises have changed hands. It wouldn't surprise me if there is a mix of staff on current franchise holder's terms + conditions, some on previous franchise holder's terms + conditions, and a shrinking number of staff still on BR terms + conditions. (I've dealt with this in other lines of work.)

Some employers will try and encourage TUPE staff to go on to new employers terms and conditions, sometimes with a one-off payment to 'buy out' some conditions. Again on the railways, I would expect the unions to try and 'level up' rather than 'level down' - different grades of staff will be in a stronger position than others.

 

[dk1]

Without knowing the specifics (and subject to the disclaimer that I'm not a lawyer or anything like that)

From what i can see (I'm not a railway worker either but considering it) the franchises moving in to public ownership is a change of ownership of the existing company, so that doesn't even count as a change of employer, so pay / terms + conditions don't change. (nor does 'continuous service' for things like redundancy pay entitlement.)

When staff are transferred from one employer to another, there is law (it's called TUPE if you want to research) which means employees keep existing terms and conditions and pay rates and continuous service. (the law is slightly fuzzy round the edges especially when it comes to detail, though, and it doesn't cover pension schemes.)

Employers can seek to change terms and conditions, irrespective of TUPE transfer, but can't just impose it with no consultation - and in a unionised environment, not without a fight. In extreme cases, some employers will do the 'fire and rehire' thing, but not sure that would get through on the railways, and there are suggestions that the current government intends to make this illegal.

There is an urban myth that TUPE protection lasts for a fixed amount of time, but this isn't law. Although the sooner after a transfer that new employer seeks to change conditions, the easier it is to argue that it's a direct result of the transfer.

Others will have direct experience of what's happened when rail franchises have changed hands. It wouldn't surprise me if there is a mix of staff on current franchise holder's terms + conditions, some on previous franchise holder's terms + conditions, and a shrinking number of staff still on BR terms + conditions. (I've dealt with this in other lines of work.)

Some employers will try and encourage TUPE staff to go on to new employers terms and conditions, sometimes with a one-off payment to 'buy out' some conditions. Again on the railways, I would expect the unions to try and 'level up' rather than 'level down' - different grades of staff will be in a stronger position than others.

In your final comment, yes, that has been seen to be the case with managerial and clerical but I have not known that apply to any traincrew grades. These tend to remain with all that is best with T&Cs only giving into slight changes for better financial gain.