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Devon & Cornwall mini-franchise to be considered

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northwichcat

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Will there not be more DMUs than you can shake a stick at within a few years when the Scottish, Midland, Northwest and Great Western electrification is done?

The reason electrification was proposed when Labour was in government was to provide extra capacity without ordering hundreds of new diesel carriages.

It now seems like electrification is also supposed to provide replacements for DMUs coming to the end of their lives - 142s, 143s, 144s, 150s and 153s.

So the DMU shortage won't end in the forseeable future unless we order new DMUs.
 
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HSTEd

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Do what that Delta Rail study suggested and electrify the Cornwall Main Line at 750V OLE and run tram trains.
That would save some money.
 

PHILIPE

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The reason electrification was proposed when Labour was in government was to provide extra capacity without ordering hundreds of new diesel carriages.

It now seems like electrification is also supposed to provide replacements for DMUs coming to the end of their lives - 142s, 143s, 144s, 150s and 153s.

So the DMU shortage won't end in the forseeable future unless we order new DMUs.

Posted elsewhere on the Forum that the Todmorden Curve service delayed again until December 2015 (hopefully) due to the DMUs not becoming availability after all.
 

northwichcat

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Posted elsewhere on the Forum that the Todmorden Curve service delayed again until December 2015 (hopefully) due to the DMUs not becoming availability after all.

Because DfT decided to send Northern DMUs to TPE. :roll:

What was supposed to happen last December was 2 x 156 diagrams on Manchester Airport-Liverpool diagrams would be released by 319s. A new early ECS move between Allerton and Chester consisting of the 2 x 156s released was supposed to replace ECS move 5H33, which consists of a 142 and a 150. The 142 should have then be used to add extra capacity to a Hazel Grove-Preston diagram and the 150 should have provided the additional train for the Todmorden extension.
 

northwichcat

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Which was in turn because TPX DMUs are going to Chiltern...

But that wasn't the only solution to the problem.

Scotrail can apparently manage with 5 less 3 car 170s but TPE couldn't take them on without DfT approval (due to the franchise end date) but Govia could and have done to provide extra capacity on Southern routes earlier than scheduled.

DfT's 'solution' means £7m worth of infrastructure improvements not being used for anything useful.
 
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Yew

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What's wrong with the set up in place? Creating another franchise would only add to the fragmentation and cost, all for the sake of putting a different name on the trains so people can feel special.

It also means the profits from the mainline can go directly into shareholders pockets, whereas the losses from the branches can be paid for by the state.

Classic 'Privatise the profits, Nationalise the Losses' Economics from the tories again..
 
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Chris125

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The reason electrification was proposed when Labour was in government was to provide extra capacity without ordering hundreds of new diesel carriages.

It now seems like electrification is also supposed to provide replacements for DMUs coming to the end of their lives - 142s, 143s, 144s, 150s and 153s.

So the DMU shortage won't end in the forseeable future unless we order new DMUs.

So long as electrification continues there should be no need for new DMUs for many years to come, short term shortfalls can be addressed through short term solutions as we are seeing with the DRS loco-hauled trains and through making the most of we have, such as Abellio's use of HSTs.
 

21C101

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There will be more but don't forget that pacers make up a large percentage of them and they have to be gone by 2020 (although there are rumours of life extentions for them which are covered in other threads....... please God let that not happen)

If pacers were used on short branches like the cornish branches or severn beach etc. I can't see a problem with refurbishing them.

I suspect a good few will be snapped up by preserved railways for early/late services if released.
 
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If pacers were used on short branches like the cornish branches or severn beach etc. I can't see a problem with refurbishing them.

I suspect a good few will be snapped up by preserved railways for early/late services if released.

Pacers are NOT suitable for Cornwall's branch lines! They came, and had to be replaced with Sprinters, and sent up North.
 

richw

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If pacers were used on short branches like the cornish branches or severn beach etc. I can't see a problem with refurbishing them.

I suspect a good few will be snapped up by preserved railways for early/late services if released.

Pacers started here on the branches. They were sent off quite quickly as couldn't handle the sharp curves,
 

Clarence Yard

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And East Anglia was another area that couldn't take them. The 1980 trials with LEV 1 showed up a few issues that made them unsuitable for use on those branches. Even in the late 1990's Railtrack wouldn't entertain any thought of them appearing in East Anglia.

The WR Skipper units went through a fair few wheel sets, as I recall. The WR civil engineers were also pleased to see the back of them as they were spreading the track on the curves. One of my former colleagues regularly travelled to work on one and wore his BR ear defenders in open carriage to try and cut out the wheel squeal!!

What with the chronic unreliability of the cl.155 fleet, the Regy Rail guys on WR had an "interesting" time then with their new toys.
 

northwichcat

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So long as electrification continues there should be no need for new DMUs for many years to come, short term shortfalls can be addressed through short term solutions as we are seeing with the DRS loco-hauled trains and through making the most of we have, such as Abellio's use of HSTs.

I don't agree. The DRS solution has only been brought in to allow TPE to loan 156s without resulting in a cutback in services. If Northern get 80 additional carriages by the end of the franchise (20 x 319s) then they're still 50 carriages down on where the previous government said they should be by the end of CP4. Electrification is a long-term solution and may be able to prevent new DMUs to be ordered to replace 156/8/9s (and newer DMUs) but it's too late for the 142/3/4s and 150/3/5s.
 

Bletchleyite

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it's too late for the 142/3/4s and 150/3/5s.

Probably agree on 14x, but I don't agree on 15x. They were built in the mid 1980s, so based on previous trains' longevity should easily have until 2025 or thereabouts - another 10 years or so, possibly longer because of modern built quality.

Neil
 

northwichcat

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Probably agree on 14x, but I don't agree on 15x. They were built in the mid 1980s, so based on previous trains' longevity should easily have until 2025 or thereabouts - another 10 years or so, possibly longer because of modern built quality.

A Northern 150 recently spent 18 months having anti-corrosion work to keep it serviceable. There are doubts over how long some of the 150s can remain in service without similar work, while if a number of 150s do go for such work an alternative DMU will need to cover for them. There's been suggestions if a new DMU order was to go ahead in CP5 as Pacer replacement then class 150 replacements will be added on to the same order to allow the worst of the 150s to be cannibalised.
 
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sor

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Not unless you have large deep pockets. New DMU won't be cheap, as they may not get full use over their lifetime. This is mostly down to electrification and new restrictions on engines.

Surely, given the glacial pace of south west rail investment, a new DMU for Devon/Cornwall will last easily until 2100 when they finally decide to wire up to Plymouth? (Cornwall is probably pencilled in for the year 3000) :D
 

northwichcat

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Surely, given the glacial pace of south west rail investment, a new DMU for Devon/Cornwall will last easily until 2100 when they finally decide to wire up to Plymouth? (Cornwall is probably pencilled in for the year 3000) :D

Indeed. Network Rail, the ROSCOs and ATOC agreed that new self-powered trains will be required in the future as some lines are unlikely to ever be electrified. However, they wanted to look at alternatives to diesel e.g. battery powered before placing the order. They also suggested new self-powered trains would be for regional routes but be suitable to cascade down to rural lines.
 

Bletchleyite

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Indeed. Network Rail, the ROSCOs and ATOC agreed that new self-powered trains will be required in the future as some lines are unlikely to ever be electrified. However, they wanted to look at alternatives to diesel e.g. battery powered before placing the order. They also suggested new self-powered trains would be for regional routes but be suitable to cascade down to rural lines.

They could perhaps consider hedging their bets by ordering OHLE bi-modes with a diesel generator pack able to be swapped out for a battery raft, or even with both.

Neil
 

The Ham

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Surely, given the glacial pace of south west rail investment, a new DMU for Devon/Cornwall will last easily until 2100 when they finally decide to wire up to Plymouth? (Cornwall is probably pencilled in for the year 3000) :D

Unfortunately those who have been to the year 3000 seam to be more interested in someone's great, great, granddaughter and the whole living underwater issue than the electrification of our rail network.
 

Busaholic

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Going back to the original thread, George Osborne apparently compared the S.W. of the future to California !! Perhaps he was thinking of San Francisco's cable cars - there are a lot of old Blackpool trams that are no longer needed, more than museums can realistically cope with, and if a Leyland National on rails aka Pacer can last this long... Or perhaps he was just telling us all down here to get fracked.
 

fgwrich

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Unfortunately those who have been to the year 3000 seam to be more interested in someone's great, great, granddaughter and the whole living underwater issue than the electrification of our rail network.

:lol:

With the rising sea levels who knows? Most certainly The funniest post I've seen on here for a while.
 

tbtc

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Ooooh, surprise, another unrelated thread has turned into a discussion about how hard done by the north of England is (and how bad Pacers are)...

More seriously though, this “micro franchise” seems like a pretty daft idea on many levels (which is a relief, because I wouldn’t take any vague pledge of Cameron very seriously at the moment – unless there’s a spending commitment then it’s just populist hot air – easy for politicians to suggest anything at this stage in the electoral cycle – e.g. the “two hundred DMU carriages” that came to nothing).

A few reasons why it’d be a backward step:

Firstly, unless there’s a magic money tree to dramatically improve the stock (above and beyond the expected improvements when GWML electrification means 165/166s move to the West Country to displace additional Sprinters to Devon/ Cornwall and replace the remaining Pacers – or are the 165/166s coming to Devon/ Cornwall too?) then there seems little point. It’s not like there are many new/different things that a micro-franchise could do with linear branchlines that are mainly single track.

Secondly, it’d put the future of the branches more at the mercy of local funding. Whilst there’s been a fervour for “devolution” (after the Scottish vote), the “local franchise” only makes sense if the local councils can fund it well – given the cuts to tendered bus services in the peninsula, I’m not confident that there’d be a generous settlement for rail if it were dependent upon local money. Devolution sounds great, as long as someone else is giving you more money to fund it.

Thirdly, whilst I know it’s popular to say something like “big franchises mean the TOC doesn’t focus on the distant branch lines” (e.g. the oft repeated “rural Lincolnshire lines are suffering because EMT only care about services to St Pancras” argument), I don’t think you can argue that FGW hasn’t improved things on the old “Wessex” franchise during this decade. More DMUs (fighting for a big slice of the “ex Snow Hill/ GOBLIN” cascade of 150s and replacing their 142s) meaning longer trains, improved frequencies, branches that co-ordinate with main line services... they’ve not taken their eye off the ball.

The “putting long distance London services in with rural branch lines means the latter are ignored” argument sounds valid at face value, but if it were really true then you’d expect a TOC like Northern/ ATW to have had the focus to significantly improve their local branch lines (given that they obviously have no “Intercity” traffic to distract them), which clearly isn’t the case. I’d argue that FGW’s branch lines have had as much (if not more) care and attention than equivalent lines run by ATW/ Northern.

What about the remaining bits of “Wessex”, if this were to happen? You’d be leaving a pretty small “provincial”/ Sprinter fleet (once the GWML is electrified to Swansea/ Bristol) – whilst I appreciate that this is generally operationally separate from the Devon/Cornwall side, it leaves an awkward rump (give routes like Weymouth/Portsmouth – Bristol to SWT?).

What about the practicalities of putting a third TOC (plus some freight) over the single track sections of the Penzance – Plymouth line? At the moment FGW can schedule Sprinters to dovetail between the Intercity services, but a “local” TOC may not be so keen to neatly fill the gaps. Or maybe a “local” TOC would devote more resources to “main line” services to take a bigger ORCATS share at the expense of branch lines (since they’ll get all of the branch line revenue regardless).

What about asking the people on the branch lines whether they want integration with the main line services or a “local franchise for local people”? Would they rather see practical improvements like direct trains from Plymouth to some of the Cornish branches or are they more bothered about having a “local” name on the side of the train?

Lastly, there’s the suspicion that Cameron is only saying this because it feeds into the nostalgia of quaint little branch lines, Brunel, the Atlantic Coast Express – the kind of “railways for people who don’t really know about railways” demographic of people who like to read John Betjeman (the kind of UKIP voting pensioners more concerned with the cosy past than the scary future?), rather than any practical devolution. If you want a “mico franchise” then there are better areas to try it (e.g. Heaton depot’s routes to Whitby/ Bishop Auckland/ Carlisle/ Chathill etc?), but where’s the dewy eyed nostalgia in that?

There is the cynical reason though – as well as the nice sounding “devolving powers to the South West”, this may also be a Cunning Plan to warrant electrification from Basingstoke to Salisbury (on the basis that Salisbury – Yeovil – Exeter belongs in the South West and therefore gets given to the regional franchise as a flagship route for them), allowing SWT to move to an all-electric fleet if the “Salisbury Six” is done at the same time. Okay, there are clear disadvantages to this too, but “London” may see splitting the route at Salisbury as justification for electrifying the bits of the route nominally in the “South East” whilst dumping the remainder... cynical? :-?

But, in reality, nothing to worry about – a glib soundbite from someone who won’t have worried himself with the practical problems.
 

swt_passenger

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...or are the 165/166s coming to Devon/ Cornwall too?)

Plenty of Devon and Cornwall routes listed as per Sep14 CP5 enhancement plans:

Group 1 – Core routes (clearance required by December 2016)
 Bristol Temple Meads (BTM) to Cardiff Central.
 Avonmouth to Bristol Parkway plus the Filton chords.
 BTM to Portsmouth.
 BTM to Worcester (including Gloucester).
 Bristol TM to Weymouth.
 BTM to Severn Beach.
 BTM to Portishead (*noting MetroWest Phase 1 proposals).
 BTM to Exeter St Davids (including Weston–super-Mare).
 Routes to and from Bristol St Phillips Marsh depot.
 Swindon to Standish junction.
 Swindon to Salisbury.
 Brighton to Portsmouth.
 Southampton to Poole.
Group 2 – additional routes to Exeter (clearance required by mid-2017)
 Exeter St Davids to Plymouth.
 Exeter St Davids to Barnstaple.
 Exeter St Davids to Axminster.
 Newton Abbot to Paignton.
 Castle Cary to Cogload Junction.
 Frome Loop and Hawkeridge Curve – Westbury.
 Routes to and from Laira depot.
Group 3 – Plymouth to Penzance (clearance requirement to be determined)
 Main line routes only.
Gunnislake branch.
 St Ives branch.
 

3141

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A very interesting post, and I think you're absolutely right on many points, except for

people who like to read John Betjeman (the kind of UKIP voting pensioners more concerned with the cosy past than the scary future?)

where I hope you mean there are some pensioners who are UKIP voters, and not that readers of John Betjeman, pensioners, and UKIP voters are all the same thing.
 
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