Deutsche Bahn 'nears Arriva deal'

[seventh-heaven]

Turbostars are roughly 20% heavier than 150s. But then, 150s are 27% heavier than Class 101 power+trailer sets, so I'm sure it doesn't matter too much.

And to put into context Turbostars are 15% longer!

 

[anthony263]

I suppose you could argue that the turbo's should be a lot more efficient than a 150?

I dont think a turbo would be able to operate services to Merthyr/Aberdare/Treherbert due to clearance issues, as i am sure that they are wider than a class 158 which i have been told are not allowed to work services north of radyr for the same reason.

Although a turbo may be able to work to coryton etc as a class 158 has managed to in the past

 

[DVT82305]

Will all the trains be in the DB livery?

 

[The Planner]

93 posts until we got to the most important question of all !! :roll:

 

[mumrar]

Ha, yes, I'm surprised it didn't come a lot sooner TBH

 

[Pumbaa]

No they will not be. DB have stated now that the Arriva brand will remain, so uniforms, identities, and obviously most importantly so will the liveries.

Turning to more important points, while it is possible DB could rebrand the Chiltern brand into Arriva, I highly doubt it. DB just want the parenthood and returns, it would be against their interests meddling and replacing a popular brand with one that isn't quite so well renowned.

And the uncertainty with XC remains. DB will not continue running a loss making service, and fill up the empty coffers with their own hard earned cash. If XC continues to lose money due to the ridiculous bid they put in, Arriva will abandon it. Simple as!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Ha, yes, I'm surprised it didn't come a lot sooner TBH

It had actually, a few pages in - but there was thankfully more important discussion going on!

 

[swt_passenger]

If Arriva abandoned XC surely all the same 'cross default' arguments would arise as they did with NXEC, NXEA and c2c?

So at best, Arriva would be unable to bid for any franchises that came up for renewal, such as Wales and Borders?

 

[route:oxford]

And the uncertainty with XC remains. DB will not continue running a loss making service, and fill up the empty coffers with their own hard earned cash. If XC continues to lose money due to the ridiculous bid they put in, Arriva will abandon it. Simple as!

Not so "Simple as!". There is the, albeit unlikely, chance that the by abandoning one franchise they could forfeit them all.

The XC franchise needs reinvigoration not abandonment.

 

[Pumbaa]

Not so "Simple as!". There is the, albeit unlikely, chance that the by abandoning one franchise they could forfeit them all.

The XC franchise needs reinvigoration not abandonment.

And it's become very apparent, and I mean hugely apparent, that reinvigoration is just not possible. The franchise is a lame duck, so much so that Arriva really want nothing to do with it. They were slightly over-energetic with their franchise promises, too much money; too little income and to top it all as they do start receiving more income from cleverly altered prices and flows, traincrew deals start to expire, the premium rises substantially and performance gets better from themselves and other franchises; one of XCs main income streams was compensation from NR and other TOCs for poor performance! Other TOCs who operate on their patch have since the sums were done in 2006, opened up 000s of TOC only fares. Most of the time XC cannot beat them in price due to poor frequency, so naturally opts for higher prices leading to their tickets not selling. What was once described as "the biggest ORCATS raid in history" is now simply not coughing up as much as is needed by XCT.

The cross-default arrangement would be interesting. Arriva have very little to do with the running or the arranging of the franchise bid; they simply funded it, then stuck in some unwanteds to run it, and leave them to their own devices. I'm sure they could squirm their way out of it fairly easily in the next Govt.

The best XC is hoping for is the franchise brought down to 2014 (which can be done) and then either rebid or leave it.

 

[Bellwater]

No gap train-spotter, everything as been achieved for this year.Very many thanks for your heartfelt concern which is most gratefully appreciated.

If you say so, the only Train Spotting i do is on the Information board for one before i take it out.

 

[merlodlliw]

http://www.railwaygazette.com/news/single-view/view/10/db-confirms-arriva-takeover-bid.html

The gazette version may interest a few of you.

 

[Burkitt]

Will all the trains be in the DB livery?

No they will not be. DB have stated now that the Arriva brand will remain, so uniforms, identities, and obviously most importantly so will the liveries.

DB said the same thing about EWS though, then less than a year later they decided to consolidate the various freight operations they had acquired throughout Europe under the single DB Schenker brand.
Chiltern and WSMR both developed very strong brands independently of DB, so when they were the group's only UK operations it made sense to retain the established identities.
However, I think it likely that now DB has control of quite a variety of passenger operations in the UK, with disparate names and liveries, at some point they will decide to unify them all under one brand. This is most likely to occur when they start bidding for further major mainline franchises, notably East Coast and West Coast, and want to promote their existing experience of successful UK operations.
They may use the Arriva brand for this, but given DB probably has a stronger reputation in the UK for competency and efficiency in railway operations, I would expect the red and white paint to be rolled out within the next twelve months.

 

[TDK]

And it's become very apparent, and I mean hugely apparent, that reinvigoration is just not possible. The franchise is a lame duck, so much so that Arriva really want nothing to do with it. They were slightly over-energetic with their franchise promises, too much money; too little income and to top it all as they do start receiving more income from cleverly altered prices and flows, traincrew deals start to expire, the premium rises substantially and performance gets better from themselves and other franchises; one of XCs main income streams was compensation from NR and other TOCs for poor performance! Other TOCs who operate on their patch have since the sums were done in 2006, opened up 000s of TOC only fares. Most of the time XC cannot beat them in price due to poor frequency, so naturally opts for higher prices leading to their tickets not selling. What was once described as "the biggest ORCATS raid in history" is now simply not coughing up as much as is needed by XCT.

The cross-default arrangement would be interesting. Arriva have very little to do with the running or the arranging of the franchise bid; they simply funded it, then stuck in some unwanteds to run it, and leave them to their own devices. I'm sure they could squirm their way out of it fairly easily in the next Govt.

The best XC is hoping for is the franchise brought down to 2014 (which can be done) and then either rebid or leave it.

Did VT make a profit when running XC? If so DB will!

 

[DaveNewcastle]

livery?

I just don't get it.
Of all the stuff people talk about on here (and it does cover a pretty broad spectrum), I haven't a clue why anybody even notices what colours trains are painted on the outside. And certainly not why anyone would bother to type anything about it on an internet forum.
Sorry.
And please don't try to tell me what the point is. I'll never get it. (And I don't think I mind not getting the point, either)

But . . . . are we pleased that Arriva is about to be mananged by DB?

Here's my post for today about this from Dow Jones, its quite political, and interesting:-

. . . The agreement also effectively sees some infrastructure that was once owned by the U.K. government being renationalized by another European state.

Vince Cable, the deputy leader of the U.K.'s third party the Liberal Democrats, said in a statement Friday that the deal, which has yet to be approved by shareholders and regulators, underscored the need for a "public interest test" in such merger situations, due to concerns about jobs and service.

"Millions of people rely on Arriva for transport services and thousands of jobs are dependent on the company," he said.

"A takeover proposal such as this further underlines the need for a public interest test to look at the impact on jobs, service and the wider economy, as well as the long-term stability of the company."

Cable's remarks come against a background of renewed concern about whether the U.K., which has a relatively relaxed approach to takeovers by foreign companies, should redraw the rules.

Sparked by the acrimonious takeover of U.K. confectioner Cadbury PLC by U.S. company Kraft Foods Inc. (KFT), which ended in January with Cadbury's acceptance of a GBP11.9 billion deal, politicians and business leaders have spoken of their worries about the number of U.K. companies that have been taken over by overseas firms. Peter Mandelson, the U.K. business secretary, called recently for a wide-ranging review of U.K. takeover law.

Although the Cadbury situation stoked some hostility to foreign takeovers in the U.K., most politicians and business leaders haven't advocated blocking such takeovers on the grounds of foreign ownership. They have focused instead on the need to tighten up rules governing shareholder behavior and disclosure during bid situations.

A particular concern is the influence of hedge funds and other short-term shareholders, who were seen to play a dominant role in the Cadbury situation. Roger Carr, the former Cadbury chairman, said in a recent speech that over a quarter of Cadbury's share register fell to hedge funds during the bid situation, effectively disenfranchising longer-term institutional investors. He made a series of recommendations addressed at limiting the influence of hedge funds in U.K. takeover situations.

The U.K. Takeover Panel, which regulates merger and acquisition activity, is consulting on whether to change the rules.

The Liberal Democrats say that shareholders who acquire stock after a bid situation is in progress should effectively be prevented from voting or selling their shares.

U.K. M&A practitioners like bankers and lawyers resist such sweeping changes to the code, arguing that restricting the influence of hedge funds would inadvertantly impact longer-term shareholders too by limiting their ability to buy and sell shares, and could have make it harder for struggling or badly-run companies to find better new ownership.

Experts have pointed out also that such a change to the takeover code likely wouldn't have prevented Deutsche Bahn from acquiring Arriva, whose shareholder base is dominated by long term institutional investors, many of them U.K.-based.

"Arriva is far less dominated by overseas investors than Cadbury," said Scott Moeller, of the Cass Business School in London.

 

[the sniper]

I haven't a clue why anybody even notices what colours trains are painted on the outside.

Catching a train must be an interesting experience for you, seeing as you presumably never know what your train should or will look like. I don't think there are many train users that could say they don't know what their regular train looks like, so for a rail enthusiast (I presume you are, seeing as your here) to be able to say that, it's really, well... interesting.

And certainly not why anyone would bother to type anything about it on an internet forum.

Yeah DVT82305, ya loser, I hope you feel really small now Dave has put you in your place. You deserve to feel really embarrassed.

:roll:

 

[Pumbaa]

Did VT make a profit when running XC? If so DB will!

VT paid a lower premium (XCT is roughly 25% higher throughout the life of the franchise) and the ORCATS flow was constantly high; mod of competition clauses prevented TOCs opening some TOC specific flows. After 2006, these were lifted which is why they're now all over the place, rather than the select few than existed before.

DB won't be able to get Arriva to make a profit from XC without making half the workforce redundant, taking a load of services out or renegotiating the franchise to stop the premium being so high.

 

[Lampshade]

I'm sure I'm not alone in thinking there should be more strict criteria TOCs must meet in order to bid for a franchise - such as how sensible the bid actually is and ability to pay it back.

 

[steve099]

Catching a train must be an interesting experience for you, seeing as you presumably never know what your train should or will look like. I don't think there are many train users that could say they don't know what their regular train looks like, so for a rail enthusiast (I presume you are, seeing as your here) to be able to say that, it's really, well... interesting.
:roll:

That said, imagine if rail liveries worked on a similar basis to London Buses.

 

[DaveNewcastle]

. . . . I don't think there are many train users that could say they don't know what their regular train looks like, so for a rail enthusiast (I presume you are, seeing as your here) to be able to say that, it's really, well... interesting.

Hah! Good reply!
(I'm sure you know I meant no offence - and I guess none was taken.)
But its true that I really don't care about livery at all. But that's NOT the same as not recognising them - and that's why I'm responding.
Of course I'd recognise a departure from the usual train appearance.
In fact, I reckon I have better than average visual awareness and recollection - I usually do recognise designed details, and I like to criticise bad design (which is different from designs I like and don't like). But for me this is more an issue of how designs work and engage with people.
I have my preferences, sure.
But I really don't care what colour scheme a company uses, and don't imagine I'll ever care (unless I ever have to clean them).
And I still can't grasp where livery comes into a consideration of Arriva being bought by DB.

 

[Techniquest]

Half of the Internet seems to be livery froth. Hardly surprised it didn't take long for it to begin. I'm glad they're aren't putting red vinyls on everything, having seen some edited photos of 168s, 165s and Goodness knows what else in DB livery this week, I'm booking an appointment with Specsavers later.

I cannot surely be the only person on God's green Earth whose eyes do not like the DB red livery, surely?

 

[Lampshade]

I prefer the ICE livery, white with a red stripe, it'd look smart on any train. However I agree with not liking the red livery, although I'm biased as I don't really like red to begin with.

 

[Techniquest]

Glad to hear someone else dislikes the red. Granted, it's a relatively simple livery but as my favourite colour is blue (now there's some random gen for you ) I'm biased anyway. Does explain why I like the midnight blue on GW HSTs too

 

[The Planner]

Im not sure why people think they will re-livery everything, how many 66s have been done since DB took over ??

 

[tbtc]

Im not sure why people think they will re-livery everything, how many 66s have been done since DB took over ??

...and if they did relivery everything, we'd criticise them for not spending the money in improving services instead.

If they are keeping the Arriva name (for existing UK operations, at least in the short term) then there's no point in painting things red. Don't sell you shares in manufacturers of turquoise just yet...

 

[TDK]

Catching a train must be an interesting experience for you, seeing as you presumably never know what your train should or will look like. I don't think there are many train users that could say they don't know what their regular train looks like, so for a rail enthusiast (I presume you are, seeing as your here) to be able to say that, it's really, well... interesting.



Yeah DVT82305, ya loser, I hope you feel really small now Dave has put you in your place. You deserve to feel really embarrassed.

:roll:

I am with Dave on this one and a good majority of passengers do not care what colour the train is or what it looks like as long as it is clean and the heating or aicon works, as for livery I for one don't give a monkeys what livery a train is in, a train is a train to me!

 

[the sniper]

I am with Dave on this one and a good majority of passengers do not care what colour the train is or what it looks like as long as it is clean and the heating or aicon works, as for livery I for one don't give a monkeys what livery a train is in, a train is a train to me!

I'm not particularly bothered either. I just addressed what Dave posted originally, he said: 'I haven't a clue why anybody even notices what colours trains are painted on the outside'; there's a big difference between caring and noticing, surely. Dave has subsequently clarified what he meant.

And you say you don't give a monkeys about lively, but are you honestly telling me that if you turned up for your morning turn and your silver '67' had gone Deushe Bahn red, you wouldn't even bat an eyelid? Also, wouldn't you be in the slightest bit interested to know if one of WSMR's '67's' was going to disappear for a repaint?

 

[HSTfan!!!]

I prefer the ICE livery, white with a red stripe, it'd look smart on any train.

Until it gets dirty, which lets be honest would happen in britain, and if you've ever seen how bad our remaining silver 158's look like dirty then it doesn't bear thinking about lol

 

[jon0844]

Given that DB hasn't used its livery on the businesses it already operates here, I do wonder if they're going to change anything at all.

 

[the sniper]

Given that DB hasn't used its livery on the businesses it already operates here

Apart from it's main one, of course.

http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:66152_Danesmoor.jpg

http://if.fotopic.net/p62925012.html

 

[jon0844]

I didn't realise they did it on the freight trains. I stand corrected on that then!

But, I think Chiltern & Wrexham/Shropshire are still good reasons why they might not do it for Arriva trains.