Detained by Carlisle Security

[Galaxia]

I had been out in Liverpool and when I tried to board the train at James Street, Liverpool, I was told I couldn't as I was intoxicated. The two male staff were laughing and mocking me so I began filming them on my phone. I left and went to a pub nearby and had a soft drink to sober up. A man who claimed to be homeless was chatting with me and I didn't think much of this at the time. After around an hour I returned to James Street to be told I still couldn't travel and that I had been racist. I asked what I was supposed to have said and nobody could tell me. The homeless man appeared and started telling me I should leave but I was angry that such an allegation had been made. At some point, what I now know to be Carlisle security turned up and explained I had to wait for the police and when this homeless man carried on telling me I should leave, they reiterated that I had to wait for the police. They allowed me to go the toilet but explained I wasn't allowed to leave. The British transport police turned up and explained I had been accused of racism. When I asked what I was supposed to have said, the officer said neither staff member could remember! On that basis I said I wouldn't give my details because how can I be accused of a very serious crime which nobody could remember? I ended up being arrested but de-arrested when I gave my details and was told I could leave as the staff member didn't want to take it any further. It was now half 11 at night and this strange man was still hanging around telling me I should leave. He followed me out the station and basically ended up grabbing me and refused to let go. I managed to get the attention of a passing couple, who after several attempts, made him let me go. They walked me to Lime Street where I was allowed to board despite still being in the same 'intoxicated' state I was in 20 minutes earlier.

When I got home, I called 101 and reported this male. Merseyside police called me back on Tuesday and the female PC referred to the man as my 'friend', highlighted I had been arrested and closed the case. His image was on their body cam throughout! Due to everything that happened, I handed in my notice at work and basically spent several months depressed. I requested the body cam footage which had constantly been relied on by all agencies. I did get footage but there was no footage of the original incident with the two males mocking me despite one wearing a body cam.

All the body cam footage shows is me protesting my innocence and pointing out that sending a woman out alone late at night wasn't safe. I'm not aggressive or threatening and was calm throughout. I have complained to Merseyrail who are telling me to contact their legal department and refuse to answer questions. I complained to Carlise who said they would hold an internal investigation and immediately closed the ticket. The police, although they initially defended their actions, are now also ignoring me since I informed them there was no footage of me being racist.

Do I have a case against them? I have tried to contact a solicitor but it's a nightmare due to xmas and my personal circumstances. Do I have a case and if so, would it be against Carlisle rather than the police or Merseyrail?

 

[methecooldude]

4.1 of the Railway Byelaws (which is also the same on the MerseyRail ones) state

No person shall enter, attempt to enter or remain on the railway where that person is unfit to enter or remain on the railway as a result of being in a state of intoxication.

(https://www.merseyrail.org/media/5iwdk5oa/merseyrail-byelaws-accessible.pdf)
Therefore in my opinion, they were correct to deny you boarding of a service.

I have no comment about the rest of your post except

All the body cam footage shows is me protesting my innocence and pointing out that sending a woman out alone late at night wasn't safe.

But you were out late, assumably alone (you haven't said), to get to and enter James Street anyway. So what is the difference?

Do I have a case and if so, would it be against Carlisle rather than the police or Merseyrail?

For what violation of the law?

 

[Galaxia]

They stated I was intoxicated and this is subjective. I wasn't intoxicated enough that I didn't have the good sense to start filming. I wasn't out alone, I was separated outside the train station due to the girls I was with having a fall out. Half 8 is very different to half 11. It's not necessarily violating a criminal law but to detain someone on the basis that there is body cam footage of them being racist when in reality doesn't exist, would lead me to believe it's a civil wrong. It's quite shocking that a racist allegation can be believed so readily despite the 'victim' not being able to recall what was said especially when the response of the police to this strange man is considered.

 

[danm14]

Merseyrail denying travel to "intoxicated" persons appears to be a recurring theme - to the extent that there have been several high profile cases of (sober) disabled people being denied travel, with staff refusing to back down even after being shown proof of disability.

 

[WirralLine]

For future reference if turned away from a Merseyrail station in the city centre for being too intoxicated, just walk to one of the other ones. I got refused at Central one night so went to Moorfields where nobody batted an eyelid and I got home safe and sound.

Merseyrails alcohol policy is very over the top in my opinion. The train company I work for takes many punters on a weekend who are extremely drunk and rarely cause any issues, heck if we refused them all we would have no customers.

I can't comment on your situation. Its not my area of expertese and I expect others to be of more use with their advice.

 

[AlterEgo]

Instruct a solicitor if you’re serious about this. This forum is full of fares experts rather than anyone who can with any authority tell you who, if anyone, you have a civil claim against here.

 

[methecooldude]

Merseyrails alcohol policy is very over the top in my opinion. The train company I work for takes many punters on a weekend who are extremely drunk and rarely cause any issues, heck if we refused them all we would have no customers.

I'm just going to leave https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-merseyside-20339630 here. They don't want the same thing happening again

 

[Merseysider]

Merseyrails alcohol policy is very over the top in my opinion.

We don't want a repeat of the train fatally dismembering a drunken member of the public. Better safe than sorry.

P73 onwards

 

[Spurs]

We don't want a repeat of the train fatally dismembering a drunken member of the public. Better safe than sorry.

P73 onwards

With the alternative quite possibly being that someone will try to drive home instead? Or even if walking, cross the road without due care and attention? Being drunk brings risks with it. As a society we've decided we want to tolerate those risks rather than prohibit alcohol. Public services therefore have a role to play in mitigating them where possible. Letting someone board a train late at night is once such role.

 

[WirralLine]

I'm just going to leave https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-merseyside-20339630 here. They don't want the same thing happening again

I'm well aware of this, we had to study it as part of our conductor training. The gross negligence of one member of staff should not result in refusing drunk people trains home, full stop. Other TOCs seem to cope just fine. Although an interesting discussion, probably not the place for it as it's no help to the OP!

 

[Galaxia]

Merseyrail denying travel to "intoxicated" persons appears to be a recurring theme - to the extent that there have been several high profile cases of (sober) disabled people being denied travel, with staff refusing to back down even after being shown proof of disa

We don't want a repeat of the train fatally dismembering a drunken member of the public. Better safe than sorry.

P73 onwards

I was intoxicated but certainly not to a point that was a worry as highlighted by the fact there was no issues with me boarding at Lime Street. However, the second time I went to James Street they clearly couldn't use that excuse and decided to inform me I had been racist and therefore could not travel. Maybe they assumed I would leave and didn't expect me to rightfully disagree.

 

[Chrius56000]

. . .There was a (very intoxicated, very loud and getting worse!) elderly lady with an Irish accent on a Cross–Country train from Stafford to Macclesfield I was on last Friday, and I was stuck with having to sit very close to her because the train was cram–jam like they always are (4 car Voyager!) and that was the only seat left – there's no way I was fit enough to try and find another seat as I was in some pain from arthritis in my knee!

. . .So why was this extremely drunken elderly lady allowed to board and not the OP?

 

[Egg Centric]

Due to everything that happened, I handed in my notice at work and basically spent several months depressed.

Say what?

Instruct a solicitor if you’re serious about this. This forum is full of fares experts rather than anyone who can with any authority tell you who, if anyone, you have a civil claim against here.

@Galaxia this is the only reasonable response anyone here can give you to this OP. I strongly suggest a face to face meeting rather than an online consultation too.

 

[scrapy]

If you appoint a solicitor for a civil claim, I doubt you would get one on a no win, no fee basis. Think very carefully about what you want to achieve from this. It could well cost you more than you gain.

On what basis are you claiming?
Did the railway act unreasonably?
Did you act in any way unreasonably?

The fact that there is no footage of you being racist, means there is no physical evidence and the fact that the police didn't take it further means there was not enough evidence to bring about a prosecution. That doesn't mean a civil court will totally disregard the racism allegations though.
The Carlisle employees will presumably have entered witness statements to say their side of what happened. A court may well believe that the Carlisle employee still acted reasonably. As you say drunkeness is subjective, however the law says the opinion is that of the person acting on behalf of the railway. Anyone else's opinion on how drunk you were doesn't matter in this case. Therefore as long as Merseyrail (Carlisle on their behalf) acted reasonably, I see no reason for a court to award you anything.

Being drunk in charge of a motor vehicle can simply mean you were over the legal drink drive limit. I would not expect this level of drunkeness to result in refusal of rail travel though. No one would deny that someone passed out and vomiting as a result of alcohol would be classed as drunk. I would suggest that the OP was somewhere in the middle of the above examples, however their behaviour reasonably gave the Carlisle security employeees cause to deny their travel and could reasonably demonstrate to the court the OP was drunk.

 

[Krokodil]

Merseyrails alcohol policy is very over the top in my opinion. The train company I work for takes many punters on a weekend who are extremely drunk and rarely cause any issues, heck if we refused them all we would have no customers.

After everything I and others had to deal with last Friday, I'm feeling more inclined to side with the Merseyrail policy.

 

[Pete 1981]

. . .There was a (very intoxicated, very loud and getting worse!) elderly lady with an Irish accent on a Cross–Country train from Stafford to Macclesfield I was on last Friday, and I was stuck with having to sit very close to her because the train was cram–jam like they always are (4 car Voyager!) and that was the only seat left – there's no way I was fit enough to try and find another seat as I was in some pain from arthritis in my knee!

. . .So why was this extremely drunken elderly lady allowed to board and not the OP?

Probably because nobody either noticed or cared that she was drunk before she boarded the service.

 

[Pushpit]

They stated I was intoxicated and this is subjective. I wasn't intoxicated enough that I didn't have the good sense to start filming. I wasn't out alone, I was separated outside the train station due to the girls I was with having a fall out. Half 8 is very different to half 11. It's not necessarily violating a criminal law but to detain someone on the basis that there is body cam footage of them being racist when in reality doesn't exist, would lead me to believe it's a civil wrong. It's quite shocking that a racist allegation can be believed so readily despite the 'victim' not being able to recall what was said especially when the response of the police to this strange man is considered.

I can see this had a profound effect upon you and while each separate incident was relatively trivial, collectively it had a hugely unsettling impact on you, from what I'm reading in your two posts and it has gone on for months. I suspect in particular there is a lot of "why?" going around in your head.

Once in a while I get rostered (as a clinician) on a Friday or Saturday night to deal with the wash-up of the heavy drinking culture in the city where I work. You tale would not strike me as unusual - people come in distressed or injured from stuff that happens, from both people they know and "randoms". I'm also lifelong teetotal so I've got both a personal and a professional detachment to all of this. I long ago stopped trying to make logical sense of the events that come across the patients that I see. It's just the alcohol, and sometimes narcotics. The reason it's attractive for a night out is precisely the reason why it occasionally causes significant problems.

Where that takes you is between you, your family/friends, your GP, maybe your religion, I can't guide you. I'm not sure a lawyer can fix this either, if it's troubling you like this, other than to "check the checks" - to see if something else can be followed up. Being accused of racism, in this era, is unpleasant, it's happened to me (by someone who was drunk) and if proven it's about the only thing that would get me sacked. But it's easily said, difficult to prove.

But you will know the truth, and actually it's not for you to prove your innocence. It's also not for you to sort out other people's problems. I'm not sure you're going to get far with Carlisle, the Police or Merseyrail, the random person - no crime has been committed (it's not per se illegal to be racist, it is illegal to incite racial hatred or demonstrate hostility via racism, but you were never accused of that). Being arrested is partly to protect your rights, and seems to have been swiftly ended. So I'm not seeing an easy route to answer the "why?" though these external bodies.

But there are things you can do in terms of the impact on your mental health. If this is still a live issue with you, call your surgery and ask about Talking Therapy.

 

[matt]

Instruct a solicitor if you’re serious about this. This forum is full of fares experts rather than anyone who can with any authority tell you who, if anyone, you have a civil claim against here.

As per the above this is outside the scope of this forum