Desiro vs Electrostar ride

[Starmill]

So - the other day I went from Guildford to Havant on a SWT 444. It was the first time I'd been on a 444 and was a bit surprised to see it on a Portsmouth service. But I remember saying a few times when at speed that I was very impressed by how smooth the ride was, and also how quiet and refined they are.

Then on the way back from Havant to East Croydon a Southern 377... the ride was awful! The side to side motion knocked me into the seat arm rests, the window a few times and they were difficult to even walk on - don't even think about the risk of trying to go to the toilet!

So is this down to the trains? Or the route? Or possibly the individual units I encountered? I have to say this isn't the only thing I've found about XStar trains that seems inferior to the Desiro design.

 

[Fincra5]

The route might not help... theres a lot of level crossings and not-so-new track via Barnham. 444s have their doors over the wheel base, not seating. So if you were sat over the bogies on a 377s the ride might have been poor!

 

[TheJRB]

I must say that the times I've been on Desiros (which is a tiny fraction of the amount of journeys I've taken on Electrostars), I've found the ride quality to be very smooth. I also noticed how on the Electrostars you can clearly hear the traction whilst on Desiros (even in the motor coaches), all you can hear is the, admittedly sometimes loud, air conditioning/heating.

The seating on Electrostars with good seats (i.e. 375/6, /7, /8 and the end coaches of most 377s), is better than that of a 444 in my opinion. There's just something about Siemens products however which gives off a feeling that they're well built and an overall good train. I'm not saying Bombardier's stuff doesn't, but there's something which makes Siemens trains feel more "well finished".

As Fincra5 points out, the track on the West Coastway doesn't make for the best ride anyway. I remember walking down the train on a journey from Brighton to Ford a couple of years ago and I could hardly stay upright!

 

[Bigfoot]

I compare electrostars with rover cars, where as desiros are the vw, audi etc german manufacturers. Quality built on the whole. Electrostars are made from squeeky cheap argos plastic compared to john lewis desiro quality....

 

[user15681]

I use Electrostars (375s mainly, who would've guessed ey?) every single day. I use them for about 3-4 hours in total every day and I probably know every unit inside out by now. That said, I've never been on a Desiro so I feel like I can't really comment. Unless I go on them soon.

 

[jopsuk]

Route is important- very difficult to compare ride quality between two different lines.

 

[SpacePhoenix]

The only place where I can think off when they go along the same line, probably not literally the same track is the WCML where it passes through Milton Keynes. I don't know how many stations they cover before their two routes diverge (or one terminates) but that's probably just about the best place to compare the ride quality of the two.

I don't know if the Electrostars go into Southampton Central, if they don't then they can't really be properly compared with the 444s. If they do then they could be compared with both the 444s and 450s. AFAIK the only difference between the 350s and the 450s is the fact that the 350s are AC and the 450s are DC

 

[Grumpy]

Their diesel equivalents, ie the 170's and 185's, can be compared on the same track on the Trans Pennine services.
The 170's ride is noticeably better, with the 185's having a distinct yawing action by comparison

 

[trentside]

I don't know if the Electrostars go into Southampton Central, if they don't then they can't really be properly compared with the 444s. If they do then they could be compared with both the 444s and 450s. AFAIK the only difference between the 350s and the 450s is the fact that the 350s are AC and the 450s are DC

Both Desiros and Electrostars operate on the West Coastway from Southampton Central - though I've only ever used South West Trains along there, so had a 450. So it would be possible to do a comparison over the same stretch of line if anyone was really keen to do so!

Personally, I've got to agree with other posters that the ride quality on the Desiros is better - as is the general ambience.

 

[SpacePhoenix]

Anyone been a guard or a driver on both? Which is better from a drivers or guards point of view?

Were the Desiros the next evolution of an existing design or designed from scratch. If I remember correctly the Electrostars are in effect Networker Mk2s

 

[317666]

I also find that Desiros ride much, much more smoothly than Electrostars, as well as feeling more well-finished like others have said. 379s in particular feel horrendously cheap, with the seats shaking and various panels rattling despite only being 2-3 years old!

 

[Phillipimo]

I find Desiro's bounce around a lot over pointwork at speed, Shawford North junction and Eastleigh fast lines for example. However dare I say it Voyagers on the same route are very smooth you can hardly feel a thing in comparison!

 

[swt_passenger]

So - the other day I went from Guildford to Havant on a SWT 444. It was the first time I'd been on a 444 and was a bit surprised to see it on a Portsmouth service...

No reason to be surprised at all, a slight majority of services are 444 operated over the normal course of a working day.

 

[TEW]

I find Desiro's bounce around a lot over pointwork at speed, Shawford North junction and Eastleigh fast lines for example. However dare I say it Voyagers on the same route are very smooth you can hardly feel a thing in comparison!

I find Desiros very bouncy over pointwork too. I've never really noticed much difference between the ride of the two to be honest. They're both good provided they are travelling over continuously welded plain line. If you're travelling over points at speed the ride is always going to be a little rough.
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I also noticed how on the Electrostars you can clearly hear the traction whilst on Desiros (even in the motor coaches), all you can hear is the, admittedly sometimes loud, air conditioning/heating.

You've never heard the distinctive wee-wee-wee-wee-wee traction noise of Desiros as they start off then? The air conditioning of Desiros is very loud. You really notice it when you pass over a thrid rail gap and it goes off momentarily.

 

[asylumxl]

I find Desiros very bouncy over pointwork too. I've never really noticed much difference between the ride of the two to be honest. They're both good provided they are travelling over continuously welded plain line. If you're travelling over points at speed the ride is always going to be a little rough

I'm inclined to say the Desiro has better ride quality compared to Electrostars. The suspension is somewhat softer than the Electrostars to absorb most imperfections on the track. While it is true they are bouncy over pointwork, as a regular user of Electrostars I can vouch that this is preferable to the jolting of Electrostars.

In both cases though I'm inclined to say that this is due to the reasonably large track tolerances allowed in the UK.

 

[Domh245]

In the few desiros I've been on, the noise of the air conditioning completely drowned out the noise of the traction motors and their equipment. I'd imagine that they are also pretty well sound proofed which would help cancel out the noise. In an electrostar, you can still hear the traction motors as you accelerate away from my experiences.

 

[bronzeonion]

Desiro ride I find too smooth in away, you just don't feel connection with the track if you know what I mean and they are too quiet inside. Over a rough set of points though, they really are Disastros.

Electrostars are all round better and still feel like a train rather than a plane.

 

[jon0844]

Having been thrown all over the place on a Southern 377 in 3rd rail land, I can't imagine how bad a Desiro could be then.

 

[TheJRB]

A good example of Electrostar ride quality over points at speed is heading non-stop through Orpington. As the four tracks become two at the south end of the station, you certainly know about it!

You've never heard the distinctive wee-wee-wee-wee-wee traction noise of Desiros as they start off then? The air conditioning of Desiros is very loud. You really notice it when you pass over a thrid rail gap and it goes off momentarily.

I've heard it before, just never inside the train itself. On a trip I took around the South West Trains network last summer, I must say I was quite surprised how loud the air conditioning is.

 

[DJL]

A good example of Electrostar ride quality over points at speed is heading non-stop through Orpington. As the four tracks become two at the south end of the station, you certainly know about it!


I've heard it before, just never inside the train itself. On a trip I took around the South West Trains network last summer, I must say I was quite surprised how loud the air conditioning is.

Can't say I'd ever noticed that about Orpington. But of the times I've been through non-stop I have been stopping or starting at Chelsfield, which is just up the road so maybe not full line speed...

 

[bigdelboy]

I'd concur with the desiro's feeling softly bouncey over points, and 377 prone to some bad jolting and banging and sometimes some bad vibrations.

Not that I've been on that stretch of line recently but Havant-Fratton should be good for comparison .... the curve/points past the farlington triangle and over portcreek is probably taken at sufficient speed to input a little stress to invoke jolts and otherwise. I'm not sure cosham/Southampton really has any good sections to stress them; my recollection on that stretch with 377's is fairly smooth.

 

[asylumxl]

I'd concur with the desiro's feeling softly bouncey over points, and 377 prone to some bad jolting and banging and sometimes some bad vibrations.

Not that I've been on that stretch of line recently but Havant-Fratton should be good for comparison .... the curve/points past the farlington triangle and over portcreek is probably taken at sufficient speed to input a little stress to invoke jolts and otherwise. I'm not sure cosham/Southampton really has any good sections to stress them; my recollection on that stretch with 377's is fairly smooth.

I think if people really want to know which is smoother, the best solution would be to use a stretch of track like this and log accelerometer readings on the same stretch of track.

 

[northwichcat]

The only section of track I've ridden on both is Milton Keynes to Bletchley and I'd say the ride quality was comparable. However, I'd say Milton Keynes to Bletchley provided a less smooth ride on a 350 than Hartford to Winsford, so it's important to compare like with like.

 

[user15681]

I am regularly able to sleep on Electrostars, which hopefully reflects their good ride quality and not my laziness! The ride is still pretty good even going over the junction at Swanley diverging to the Chatham mainline. Only thing that wakes me up is flange squeal approaching Rochester bridge junction from the west.

 

[Manchester77]

Having ridden on both 185s and 350/4s as well as 170s and 377s I have to say that the desiro gave a far better ride, I found even on the diesel 185 the sound of the engines was faint and the sound of the motors on the 350 was none existent while on board. I could hear both the motor noise on the 377 and engine on the 170 and I found that I was bounced around more on the 377. However on the 170 the ride was pretty much the same as on the 185.

 

[samuelmorris]

You've never heard the distinctive wee-wee-wee-wee-wee traction noise of Desiros as they start off then?

The thing is, that's barely audible on the inside. The controller noise on Electrostars may be a much less abrasive flat 2Khz, and probably quieter too, but it's louder inside because the noise gets through into the cabin a lot easier.

Desiros are unquestionably quieter inside than Electrostars. It's just a shame the ventilator noise is so much higher. Still, as it's an almost completely broadband noise, it helps add to the sound-deadening sensation, as it drowns out other odd noises.

In my opinion, both designs handle pointwork and flange squealing better than pre-privatisation units for fairly obvious reasons.

 

[bramling]

Having ridden on both 185s and 350/4s as well as 170s and 377s I have to say that the desiro gave a far better ride, I found even on the diesel 185 the sound of the engines was faint and the sound of the motors on the 350 was none existent while on board. I could hear both the motor noise on the 377 and engine on the 170 and I found that I was bounced around more on the 377. However on the 170 the ride was pretty much the same as on the 185.

I don't find the 450s/444s too bad, but I prefer the Electrostars in almost every respect. I find the ride quality about the same, but the interior of the Electrostars I find generally more comfortable, especially those with the earlier Connex interior. I would have said the motor noise is about the same (depending on where you sit in the train), but the Desiro has the annoylingly loud air conditioning, yet always seems too hot despite this! Because of these niggles I'd prefer a Turbostar over a 185 as well.

I must say I hate the 380s though - the interior colours are too harsh especially the ultra-bright lighting down the middle, too must plastic and I hate the way so many of the seats don't line up well with the windows. A very nasty train in my opinion. (and doesn't bode well for the 700s!).

 

[Voyager 2093]

The best place to compare the two types is on the WCML between Harrow & Wealdstone and Bletchley.

The Desiro is the better product which is obvious, sorry to say, this has probably upset a few 'Biased Barrys' but it really is.

The Desiros feel much smoother and sturdy, I like the fact the trains do not shake horrendously when going over points. Whereas the Electrostars feel as if they are going to fall apart.


As a bus enthusiast too, you can always tell when a vehicle is badly made by the creakiness of the thing, due to misaligned panels and cheaper plastics used. This is something I've noticed on the 377s. The interior just looks very cheap and the air con is most ineffective on most units. The window panelling is just wrong but I think I'm delving too much into the aesthetics of the train as opposed to the ride quality.

The 377s also have much harsher braking and accelerating, which is not helpful if you are trying to enjoy a nice cup of coffee.

All in all comparing the Desiro and Electrostar is like trying to compare The Madison Hotel with a B & B.

 

[samuelmorris]

I don't find the Electrostars to be bad by any stretch, but I will definitely disagree with comments that the traction noise is the same as on the Desiros - the latter are far quieter, end of story. Again, both are superior to older EMUs, but sitting on a powered bogie in an Electrostar it is impossible to escape the traction motor noise at any stage (but it is not uncomfortably loud - it's just there) whereas on the 360, even if I actively listen to it, above a certain speed I really do struggle to hear it even when looking for it.

I also find the VCBs louder on Electrostars, and can't stand being underneath the pantograph, whereas on the 360 it's noisy but not intolerable.

The Desiro has the higher standard finish on it, and is in my opinion the higher quality product, but I don't consider the Electrostar a bad product, or look down on it with the disdain some forum members here do. When configured such, either unit can provide a very comfortable journey - I thoroughly enjoyed doing Ashford to Sandwich and back on a 375/7, and likewise Waterloo - Basingstoke on a 444.

 

[TEW]

The Desiro is the better product which is obvious, sorry to say, this has probably upset a few 'Biased Barrys' but it really is.

Oh the irony. Reading your assessment of the two units it hardly comes across as an objective judgement. I don't think the difference between the two is anything like as great as you're trying to make out. They both have their positives and negatives.