Desiro v Electrostar

[fowler9]

The Desiros feel a bit better put together to me. The 350/2's should be kept on suburban services though, they have no place doing Liverpool to Birmingham.

 

[shaun]

For longer-distances... The 444 trumps any form of Electrostar out there. Interesting how there hasn't yet been an IC version of the Electrostar.

For general commuting... The 377/387 certainly wins over a 450.

350s are somewhere in the middle depending on which type you get and on what kind of journey.

 

[SEClass375]

For longer-distances... The 444 trumps any form of Electrostar out there. Interesting how there hasn't yet been an IC version of the Electrostar.

For general commuting... The 377/387 certainly wins over a 450.

350s are somewhere in the middle depending on which type you get and on what kind of journey.

There hasn't been a need for an IC electrostar as the networks that use them around London for relatively short journeys.

 

[shaun]

There hasn't been a need for an IC electrostar as the networks that use them around London for relatively short journeys.

That's true I guess, although the Norwich line could've benefitted from something like it years ago.

 

[fgwrich]

There hasn't been a need for an IC electrostar as the networks that use them around London for relatively short journeys.

Also because Bombardier has never offered anything on the Star platform with end doors. When IE released its tender a few years ago for its Mk3 replacement, and with the specifications specifically asking for 1&4 doors, Bombardier offered what it called the Aerostar - In other words a 170 with Irish gauge bogies. And if you think I'm making that up, that came from Dick Fearn.

That's my problem with Derby, it's the Model T ford principle still in exsistance with them.

 

[bramling]

For longer-distances... The 444 trumps any form of Electrostar out there. Interesting how there hasn't yet been an IC version of the Electrostar.

For general commuting... The 377/387 certainly wins over a 450.

350s are somewhere in the middle depending on which type you get and on what kind of journey.

Wouldn't agree. Personally I'd prefer a Southeastern-spec (except the 375/9) Electrostar for the London-Weymouth journey. Despite the door layout I find they provide a very comfortable ambience for longer runs, and since the Highspeed timetable, many of the residual journeys from Kent to London on Electrostars are now quite long in terms of time.

 

[Rail Blues]

I much prefer the Desiro. The Electrostars always feel like they were put together for a price.

That said, the gangway fitted Desiros do look pretty hideous making the name Desiro willfully misapplied. Maybe Uglysideofplainio would have been more apt.

 

[Prestige15]

Is Bombardier still planning a 125 mph version of the Aventre or has that been dropped?

 

[swt_passenger]

Is Bombardier still planning a 125 mph version of the Aventre or has that been dropped?

Until someone actually needs such a train, any plans would be fairly tentative, but it would seem likely that some design work is complete. It is noted on their website:

This means AVENTRA will be capable of being easily modified for different market requirements, ranging from a 90mph metro train to a 125mph intercity train. Even fundamental elements, such as the layout and length of each carriage, and the number of doors, can be altered within the framework of the core AVENTRA design. Regardless of the differing train configurations and functions, all versions of the AVENTRA product will share the same innovative systems and components.

http://uk.bombardier.com/en/transportation/presence-in-country/future-concepts-projects.html

 

[Prestige15]

Until someone actually needs such a train, any plans would be fairly tentative, but it would seem likely that some design work is complete. It is noted on their website:

Oh right, I read about that a while ago, I thought the plan has been dropped or something.

Would be interesting to see them about and how it can compare to IEP

 

[capital12]

Definitely Desiro for me, feels well designed and a quality build rather than the cheap feeling of the Electrostar.

The simplicity of the Desiro interior creates a feeling of space, modernness and of being clean - whereas the multitude of pieces thrown together on an Electrostar leaves it looking cluttered, dirty and cramped. Southerns awful interior doesn't help much either with the beach towel AstroTurf covering that looks dirty even when new!!

Desiro ride quality is a million times better too, after a ride on an Electrostar I felt like I'd been in a fight with its awful jolting all over the place - you just don't get that on other units so it can't be the track.

 

[prod_pep]

The Desiro is a clear winner for me too. Their ride quality is vastly superior to the Electrostars and they generally feel better built and sturdier.

I remember my first ride on a 377 from London to Brighton and being disappointed in how rough they seemed to ride; in contrast, the electric Desiros are very smooth EMUs. The Electrostars might have the edge in the aesthetics department but that's nowhere near as important.

I'm not a massive fan of the 185s, but a lot of that is down to the grim purple interiors and their unsuitability for many of the InterCity type routes they serve.

 

[Bletchleyite]

In my view there are only three things wrong with the Class 185.

1. The location of the First Class, marooning a bit of Standard and a bog on the wrong side. It should be at the vehicle end either side of the door, giving two nice private compartments, like the Class 321.

2. The lack of gangways.

3. Being two vehicles too short.

 

[paul1609]

It would be interesting to experience a 444 on a proper dc main line down to Folkestone, on the Southwestern they seem really lethargic and rarely seem to get above 90, obviously not helped by the Stagecoach Semi Fast timetable.

 

[notadriver]

It would be interesting to experience a 444 on a proper dc main line down to Folkestone, on the Southwestern they seem really lethargic and rarely seem to get above 90, obviously not helped by the Stagecoach Semi Fast timetable.

It wouldn't be any different on the mainline as they stop at most stations outside of London anyway.
In fact Southwestern is the best place for them to stretch their legs.
And they are slow on DC - a 375 is faster.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[387star]

Desiros don't have hoppers so what happens when air con fails?

I was very conscious of 377s with hoppers open today is that getting more common? Used to never see hoppers open on 377s

 

[swt_passenger]

Desiros don't have hoppers so what happens when air con fails?

Retire to depot. Swap modular roof mounted aircon unit for spare.

I've never been on an SWT Desiro yet with completely failed aircon, but I assume they'd clear the carriage if possible, other wise take the unit out of service.

 

[swt class 450]

For me i much prefer Desiros to Electrostars any time. I think they are much better designed. More comfortable. They have better air con. The 185 / 350 / 360 / 450 are definitely my favourite trains. The 380s are quite good as well. Im not really a fan of the 444s though. I dont think they were designed as well. The Desiro City trains are brilliant as well. The 700s are a big improvenent over the 377 / 387 trains. And the 707s look very good.

The 357 / 375 / 377 / 379 / 387 are good but nowhere near as good as a Desiro. The 376 are quite good as well. Im not a fan of the 378 seating though. I dont think that they have a good design with the longitudal seating.

So i much prefer Desiros to Electrostars.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Desiros don't have hoppers so what happens when air con fails?

Very, very rare. I think I experienced it maybe twice, and that's in a lot of rides.

If you install a well-specified and well-designed aircon system, and maintain it properly, it will work.

 

[SEClass375]

It would be interesting to experience a 444 on a proper dc main line down to Folkestone, on the Southwestern they seem really lethargic and rarely seem to get above 90, obviously not helped by the Stagecoach Semi Fast timetable.

Probably just as bumpy near Orpington like the Electrostars and Networkers are.

 

[87015]

Very, very rare. I think I experienced it maybe twice, and that's in a lot of rides.

If you install a well-specified and well-designed aircon system, and maintain it properly, it will work.

There are plenty of LM ones with duff or restricted aircon... I had the 'pleasure' of one out of Euston last night.

 

[greaterwest]

I've done hundreds of journeys on SWT desiros and I can't remember a time the air con has been broken. It even works reasonably well when trains are crowded. They don't need hopper windows.

 

[paul1609]

It wouldn't be any different on the mainline as they stop at most stations outside of London anyway.
In fact Southwestern is the best place for them to stretch their legs.
And they are slow on DC - a 375 is faster.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Id suggest that the 444s should be much faster on the Southeastern Mainline because of the line enhancements for Eurostar. Whether they could match the performance of a 375 is debatable.
Even on stopping services 375 reach 100 on the down through Hildenborough, if they don't stop at Pluckley close to it before Ashford or Headcorn and again between Ashford and Folkestone on a good run. They can also manage well in to the 90s between Tonbridge and Paddock Wood with platform loops at either end, thats a performance that Ive never experienced on any dc desire.

 

[RichardN]

Well for just for current Southern and SWT versions and for std class in my opinion...

444 > 377 (2+2 end cars) > 387 > 450 > 377 (3+2 centre cars)

 

[notadriver]

Id suggest that the 444s should be much faster on the Southeastern Mainline because of the line enhancements for Eurostar. Whether they could match the performance of a 375 is debatable.

Even on stopping services 375 reach 100 on the down through Hildenborough, if they don't stop at Pluckley close to it before Ashford or Headcorn and again between Ashford and Folkestone on a good run. They can also manage well in to the 90s between Tonbridge and Paddock Wood with platform loops at either end, thats a performance that Ive never experienced on any dc desire.

444s are current limited to 1800 amps. 450s to 1500.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[SEClass375]

Id suggest that the 444s should be much faster on the Southeastern Mainline because of the line enhancements for Eurostar. Whether they could match the performance of a 375 is debatable.
Even on stopping services 375 reach 100 on the down through Hildenborough, if they don't stop at Pluckley close to it before Ashford or Headcorn and again between Ashford and Folkestone on a good run. They can also manage well in to the 90s between Tonbridge and Paddock Wood with platform loops at either end, thats a performance that Ive never experienced on any dc desire.

I think they almost hit 100 between Sevenoaks and Orpington if they don't stop at Orpington.

 

[notadriver]

I think they almost hit 100 between Sevenoaks and Orpington if they don't stop at Orpington.

Nah not that fast.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[fgwrich]

Don't forget that apart from the fact that the DC Desiros are limited, they are slightly on the heavier side through cast bogies and stronger ally construction. The "Star family are extruded Aluminium and lighter BR designed bogies.

What is interesting though if we want to compare weight - the Desiro vehicles are probably heavier per coach, but a 450 is lighter than a 377. It's the weight of Bombardiers electrical equipment (mostly the transformer) that makes the unit heavier.

But it certainly shows in Damage situations - the Chiltern Turbostars for example damaged after hitting trees on the Chiltern Mainline, or the Turbostars involved in collisions with tractors and road vehicles. Yes the Desiros have suffered some damage, but the "Stars seem to come off worse. For example

https://flic.kr/p/JQq5BD

 

[samuelmorris]

A/C failures are usually only an issue when ventilation also fails. Most often with faults the A/C will not be cooling but air is still moving through the vehicle so it's not necessarily a safety-critical issue.

 

[Bletchleyite]

There are plenty of LM ones with duff or restricted aircon... I had the 'pleasure' of one out of Euston last night.

I haven't often experienced that myself.