Desiro City vs Aventra

[AverageTD]

About 3 weeks ago I went on a class 345 on TFL rail and did a journey on a class 700 later the same day to do a direct comparison. I preferred the 700 but there are a few more variables to take into account.

1. I thought the 700 looked a lot better than the 345 but it seems that other models such as the 710 and 720 fix this problem.

2. The 345s will operate stopping services compared to 700s which do a wide variety of services, long and short.

3. The 345s have 6 sets of doors per car but the 700s only have 4.

In conclusion when comparing 345 to 700 I prefer the 700s but the 710 and and 720s look better and are a closer to comparison to the 700 and 707. I would like to hear your opinions on the Aventra and Desiro City family of trains and which trains you prefer. Sorry for any inaccurate information as I just did this through what I saw rather than any websites.

 

[47802]

I think your comparisons are largely irrelevant really both units have been designed to some degree for the requirements of the routes and customer.

An Aventra can have 2 doors per side if required and will be the case on later orders. A Desiro City for Crossrail would have been somewhat different to the Thameslink version, and vice versa with an Aventra Thameslink version.

 

[CosherB]

1. I thought the 700 looked a lot better than the 345 but it seems that other models such as the 710 and 720 fix this problem.

The 710 and 720 are not radically diiferent to the 345, are they?

 

[47802]

The 710 and 720 are not radically diiferent to the 345, are they?

No but the front end on 345 doesn't quite work in my view particularly around the lights and the fairing, certainly the images of the 720 look a lot better.

 

[swt_passenger]

The 710 and 720 are not radically diiferent to the 345, are they?

I suppose in terms of numbers of doors and individual vehicle length they'll be more like typical run of the mill EMUs...

 

[Blindtraveler]

I did this same comparrison the other way round a month or so back. I prefered the 345: nicer seats, better air con, PIS seamed to be good and perhaps most importantly the 345s thus far seam to work/not sit down somewhere very important at the wrong time!

 

[AverageTD]

I did this same comparrison the other way round a month or so back. I prefered the 345: nicer seats, better air con, PIS seamed to be good and perhaps most importantly the 345s thus far seam to work/not sit down somewhere very important at the wrong time!

I can see why you prefer them, they are great trains but the headlights are so boring. I can't wait for the 710s and 720s as bombardier seem to have addressed the problem and I'm sure they will be great trains just when directly comparing the two the 700 seems more likeable

 

[class387]

I can see why you prefer them, they are great trains but the headlights are so boring. I can't wait for the 710s and 720s as bombardier seem to have addressed the problem and I'm sure they will be great trains just when directly comparing the two the 700 seems more likeable

So you prefer an inferior train because you like the headlights? :roll:

 

[Pumbaa]

The big clue is in what the market prefers. One has clocked up more orders than the other.

 

[AM9]

The big clue is in what the market prefers. One has clocked up more orders than the other.

And any comparison between the two classes must include their respective reliability under equivalent operating conditions to be relevant. For example, how do the miles per failure or running hours per failure compare?

 

[D7666]

3. The 345s have 6 sets of doors per car but the 700s only have 4.

You are not comparing like with like.

700s are 20 m bodies.

345s are 23 m bodies.

--
Nick

 

[samuelmorris]

Both products seem aimed at broadly the same market - however, what's being compared here are the versions that UK TOCs have actually ordered (subject to a varying degrees of government instruction). If one TOC's units are considered inferior to the other, you have to consider whether that was a specification choice issue or if the product is actually inferior. Really, comparisons between the two from an objective standpoint are only valid once fleets have been fully introduced for some time on both sides - that's probably going to be 2020 at the earliest.

At this point it really is too early to say how reliable the 345s have been in service. Frankly, if they were near-faultless I'd expect there to be several out running already. TfL may be less willing to inflict unfinished product on their customers than GTR/the DfT, but there'd be no reason to hold back unless there was actually an issue.

Arguably a better comparison would be between 700 and 720, and between 717 and 345. Still not perfect, but at least somewhat reasonable.

 

[jopsuk]

The big clue is in what the market prefers. One has clocked up more orders than the other.

Desiro City:
Class 700 115 units 1140 vehicles 22800m
Class 707 30 units 150 vehicles 3000m
Class 717 25 units 150 vehicles 3000m

total: 170 units 1440 vehicles 28800m

Bombardier Aventra
Class 345 70 units 630 vehicles 14000m
Class 710 45 units 180 vehicles 3600m
Class 720 111 units 665 vehicles 15960m

total 226 units 1475 vehicles 33560m

But it isn't simply about "preference". It isn't about what they "like". It isn't even entirely about the train or technology- it's about financing, about servicing agreements, about delivery windows etc

 

[Domh245]

Desiro City:
Class 700 115 units 1140 vehicles 22800m
Class 707 30 units 150 vehicles 3000m
Class 717 25 units 150 vehicles 3000m

total: 170 units 1440 vehicles 28800m

Bombardier Aventra
Class 345 70 units 630 vehicles 14000m
Class 710 45 units 180 vehicles 3600m
Class 720 111 units 665 vehicles 15960m

total 226 units 1475 vehicles 33560m

But it isn't simply about "preference". It isn't about what they "like". It isn't even entirely about the train or technology- it's about financing, about servicing agreements, about delivery windows etc

You appear to have missed the 750 Aventra vehicles across 90 units that SWR have ordered

 

[jopsuk]

oops- forgot those!

 

[hwl]

Desiro City:
Class 700 115 units 1140 vehicles 22800m
Class 707 30 units 150 vehicles 3000m
Class 717 25 units 150 vehicles 3000m

total: 170 units 1440 vehicles 28800m

Bombardier Aventra
Class 345 70 units 630 vehicles 14000m
Class 710 45 units 180 vehicles 3600m
Class 720 111 units 665 vehicles 15960m

total 226 units 1475 vehicles 33560m

But it isn't simply about "preference". It isn't about what they "like". It isn't even entirely about the train or technology- it's about financing, about servicing agreements, about delivery windows etc

If you strip the manufacturer credit rating out of it, which effectively decided the Thameslink order then the picture is very different...

 

[AM9]

... But it isn't simply about "preference". It isn't about what they "like". It isn't even entirely about the train or technology- it's about financing, about servicing agreements, about delivery windows etc

And quite a large slice of politics.

 

[DerekC]

If you strip the manufacturer credit rating out of it, which effectively decided the Thameslink order then the picture is very different...

I am sorry, but that's an urban railway myth. Siemens won on almost all counts. Bombardier clearly thought they were a shoo-in and didn't really bother too much. Losing that order clearly had a big effect, however!

 

[hwl]

I am sorry, but that's an urban railway myth. Siemens won on almost all counts. Bombardier clearly thought they were a shoo-in and didn't really bother too much. Losing that order clearly had a big effect, however!

Agreed on the losing having big effect of Aventra Mk1 vs Aventra mk2 which is selling like hotcakes. Let me rephase the original statement the relative difference in cost of financing between Siemens vs the other manufacturing groups Alstom / Bombardier / CAF / Hitachi had far more of weighted effect than financing cost probably should have if the deal was structured in slightly different way.

 

[Bornin1980s]

What is this 'Aventra Mk1' you refer to?

 

[Mordac]

What is this 'Aventra Mk1' you refer to?

Presumably whatever was offered to Thameslink.

 

[AverageTD]

So you prefer an inferior train because you like the headlights? :roll:

I know it's a dumb comparison it's just looks matter a lot to me and I think the 710s 720s and the ones for SWR will be better than both the 345 and 700

 

[Driver@swt]

The big clue is in what the market prefers. One has clocked up more orders than the other.

Or is that driven by political influence, and Brexit, British jobs etc??

 

[samuelmorris]

I know it's a dumb comparison it's just looks matter a lot to me and I think the 710s 720s and the ones for SWR will be better than both the 345 and 700

and are entirely subjective and also almost entirely meaningless. It's clear that no effort was put into the visual appearance of BR-era EMUs and they have proven solid performers over the past few decades.

I dislike the front end styling of the 345s and by the look of things 710s and 720s will be no different in that regard - the SWR units (711? 733?) we don't know yet. I actually think the Desiro City units are the smartest EMU in the country at the moment from the outside, and stylistically I do quite like the interior as well, it's just a shame that, for various reasons not all to do with the quality of the trains, they don't live up to that functionally.

 

[hwl]

Presumably whatever was offered to Thameslink.

Correct. The ones getting the orders are the mk2 design that resulted from the soul searching after the loss of Thameslink contract.

 

[F Great Eastern]

Or is that driven by political influence, and Brexit, British jobs etc??

Certainly is a factor these days in stock procurement.