Desiro Aircon

[SpacePhoenix]

Did the 442s (which the 444s replaced) have the pressure plate for operating the internal doors when they were built?

 

[lj9090]

Only by the disabled loo, the rest had levers.

 

[ASharpe]

From a SWT meet the manager transcript:

Desiro units are fitted with a full air conditioning system. The summer setting will
cool the ambient temperature to 23c and heat to 21c, the winter setting will heat to
23c and cool to 24c. When a problem is encountered the train team can ask our fleet
team to look into the problem.

So a fully loaded Desiro on winter settings would be warmer than one in summer. Combine that with people wearing winter clothing and some will find it too warm.

I would also imagine it would take some time for the heating system to cool down, so it might give the impression that both are on at once.

 

[Kristofferson]

I think that's why I find the LM Desiros warmer this year - I'm travelling in winter peak, not summer off-peak.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I think that's why I find the LM Desiros warmer this year - I'm travelling in winter peak, not summer off-peak.

Possibly. FWIW, I haven't noticed them being unpleasant recently. Indeed, I find they are, unlike say fGW's DMUs, pretty consistently spot-on for me. Only complaint is the noise, though that (like DMU engine noise) has the advantage of drowning out annoying noise like over-loud personal stereos and the likes.

Neil

 

[Juniper Driver]

Many many press it just to stand in the doorway 6 inches closer to the external door almost as if you're locked in the coach if not in the vestibule when the door release goes up!

Mmmm good point.I can't watch the button all the time.Probably the location is too obvious.

 

[dgl]

Maybe put a "break glass" cover over the button and a fine for improper use

 

[aylesbury]

Used a couple of 350s this weekend. They felt a bit chilly plus the noise of the air con is noisy but effective.

As an aside I noticed that the interiors in first class are starting to look a bit tatty; the arm rests were worn and paintwork faded. Has anyone noticed this?

 

[Juniper Driver]

Maybe put a "break glass" cover over the button and a fine for improper use

 

[Bletchleyite]

Never seen an LM passenger muck with those - I assume they're fitted - didn't even see them there!

Neil

 

[Bigfoot]

Never seen an LM passenger muck with those - I assume they're fitted - didn't even see them there!

Neil

444s in the main. Except first class on a 450. But they tend to not be touched as often.

 

[Smitham]

319s with aircon???

Good point, well made! I meant the heating control.

 

[BestWestern]

What was that, I can't hear you. I'm on a Desiro and the 150 dB aircon has temporarily deafened me.

No me neither... I'm also on a Desiro and ice has blocked my ears!

 

[HarleyDavidson]

Maybe put a "break glass" cover over the button and a fine for improper use

No, make it a key switch and a passcom alarm type, operate it and it sets off a noisy alarm, they'll soon stop doing it.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Never seen an LM passenger muck with those - I assume they're fitted - didn't even see them there!

Neil

You won't, they're only on 444's.

 

[bramling]

as SWT said, the new desiro citys will have "smart" aircon (i hate using that word)

It will respond to how many people are on the train and where they are.

When I used to travel from Bletchley every day on the southern 377, the aircon was always set just right, yet on a 377 from Bedford it is often far too warm, culminating in my partner passing out one day

When the southern train was cancelled, I'd get a desiro which was always way hotter than the 377, but this was almost always full so that would have an impact on it.

In my opinion, if a train cannot change it's temperature during the day then it is a very poor train. This is England, we often have 3 types of weather in one day so restricting aircon to be only operable from the depot is very short-sighted

I can't help but think opening windows are a better solution, since air conditioning never seems to be able to satisfy everyone all the time. I always find the class 365s to be good in this respect -- a superb heating system (so long as it's working!), combined with decent sized opening windows which generally give a decent cooling breeze except on the few very hottest of days. They would benefit from some kind of mechanism to stop the windows blowing open and closed when passing through tunnels, however, and also perhaps an intermediate position so you can have the window halfway open, like found on the class 317/1.

 

[Goldfish62]

From a SWT meet the manager transcript:



So a fully loaded Desiro on winter settings would be warmer than one in summer. Combine that with people wearing winter clothing and some will find it too warm.

I would also imagine it would take some time for the heating system to cool down, so it might give the impression that both are on at once.

Personally I find the SWT Desiros too warm all year round. I wonder why they think 23 degrees is acceptable when the government-recommended temperature for homes is 21 degrees - and you're less likely to be wearing a coat indoors as well!

The 458s, however, seem to be too much the other way - freezing in both summer and winter!

 

[Bletchleyite]

Personally I find the SWT Desiros too warm all year round. I wonder why they think 23 degrees is acceptable when the government-recommended temperature for homes is 21 degrees - and you're less likely to be wearing a coat indoors as well!

My heating is set to 20.5 degrees, FWIW (I find 21 a bit warm). And I'm sitting here with a T-shirt and shorts on. Maybe I don't feel the cold much

I find LM Desiros about the right temperature. 23 sounds a bit warm - LM must be lower than that.

Neil

 

[wellwhatitis]

My heating is set to 20.5 degrees, FWIW (I find 21 a bit warm). And I'm sitting here with a T-shirt and shorts on. Maybe I don't feel the cold much

I find LM Desiros about the right temperature. 23 sounds a bit warm - LM must be lower than that.

Neil

They are lower. I spend all day being complained at at this time of year about how cold they are. I must admit I travelled to Euston and back in 1st last week and despite having a jumper and t shirt on, I was forced to put my coat on after 45 minutes on both journies. Yet when the aircon went off at Northampton on layover, the temperature was perfect.

 

[hassaanhc]

Personally I find the SWT Desiros too warm all year round. I wonder why they think 23 degrees is acceptable when the government-recommended temperature for homes is 21 degrees - and you're less likely to be wearing a coat indoors as well!

The 458s, however, seem to be too much the other way - freezing in both summer and winter!

Yes the 450s did seem pretty warm in the summer, compared to their 458 and 458/5s, Southern's 377s, and Heathrow Connect 360s.

With the heating, on Monday the heating was on very high on a 450 I boarded at Waterloo, but that switched off a few minutes after the train got wedged. I agree that 23 is too high anyway, let alone when wearing any warm clothes or jackets (as l was on Monday). The heating on 458/5s has been excellent, also thermostat controlled on those. I tend to take off my jacket on the 40-45 minute journey, but on Monday the heat hit me as soon as I stepped on that train. Still way better than many buses last winter.

 

[Bletchleyite]

They are lower. I spend all day being complained at at this time of year about how cold they are. I must admit I travelled to Euston and back in 1st last week and despite having a jumper and t shirt on, I was forced to put my coat on after 45 minutes on both journies. Yet when the aircon went off at Northampton on layover, the temperature was perfect.

You can put your coat on, of course. I can't strip off on board, I think some people might be offended and I reckon I'd get arrested . So logic says the temperature should be on the low side rather than the high side.

Neil
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
The exception to that, thinking on, is that I can deal with a much higher temperature if there is moving air. So I wouldn't mind it being set to 23 degrees if personal air vents were provided like those on aircraft and road coaches.

If I'm travelling on FGW locals in the middle of summer with the decidedly theoretical aircon, for instance, I'll be seeking out a 165 (no aircon, but running around with all the windows open so a good amount of moving air even if the temperature is in the high 20s on board) rather than a 166 (aircon, but completely inadequate, thus providing a lower temperature but static air).

Neil

 

[edwin_m]

I can't help but think opening windows are a better solution, since air conditioning never seems to be able to satisfy everyone all the time. I always find the class 365s to be good in this respect -- a superb heating system (so long as it's working!), combined with decent sized opening windows which generally give a decent cooling breeze except on the few very hottest of days. They would benefit from some kind of mechanism to stop the windows blowing open and closed when passing through tunnels, however, and also perhaps an intermediate position so you can have the window halfway open, like found on the class 317/1.

A hopper window doesn't provide much cooling for the person sitting just underneath who opened it. As suggested it is either fully closed or wide open, creating a draught that usually goes above head height to the next partition back, then comes back down the neck of anyone sat in this area. And even if those people work out what is happening it's too difficult to try to explain it to the person who opened the window who might take it rather personally anyway.

Also opening the window lets in a lot of noise, sometimes even more than the aircon would! The old sliding ventilators were better on both counts

As to blowing warm or cool air in through ceiling ducts, sounds good in principle but I hope the designers (same ones as the Desiro!) remember that hot air rises which is why heaters have traditionally been at floor level. I fear that to spread the warm air properly round the coach may need some powerful and noisy fans...

 

[Bletchleyite]

As to blowing warm or cool air in through ceiling ducts, sounds good in principle but I hope the designers (same ones as the Desiro!) remember that hot air rises which is why heaters have traditionally been at floor level. I fear that to spread the warm air properly round the coach may need some powerful and noisy fans...

I think it would make sense to blow it in through ceiling *and floor* ducts. Or even consider what European trains often do and circulate it inside the plastic wall panelling - often you get a grate at the bottom of the window.

Neil

 

[Juniper Driver]

The 458s, however, seem to be too much the other way - freezing in both summer and winter!

I did find one cold coach yesterday yes but not the whole train.(although that was a 458/5)

 

[Bigfoot]

I did find one cold coach yesterday yes but not the whole train.(although that was a 458/5)

There is one 4585 dmos running about with no heating working in it.

 

[Juniper Driver]

There is one 4585 dmos running about with no heating working in it.

That must have been it.

 

[jon0844]

A hopper window doesn't provide much cooling for the person sitting just underneath who opened it. As suggested it is either fully closed or wide open, creating a draught that usually goes above head height to the next partition back, then comes back down the neck of anyone sat in this area. And even if those people work out what is happening it's too difficult to try to explain it to the person who opened the window who might take it rather personally anyway.

Also opening the window lets in a lot of noise, sometimes even more than the aircon would! The old sliding ventilators were better on both counts

As to blowing warm or cool air in through ceiling ducts, sounds good in principle but I hope the designers (same ones as the Desiro!) remember that hot air rises which is why heaters have traditionally been at floor level. I fear that to spread the warm air properly round the coach may need some powerful and noisy fans...

I've said it many times, and will continue to do so, but the lack of aircon on the 365s and openable windows is NOT a good thing. Even the hopper vents rarely work, which doesn't help either.

I think they're great trains. Some of the best perhaps, but the lack of aircon is a real problem.

Let's face it, we have rather more than just a few hot (or humid) days a year. I remember having the same argument with friends about getting aircon in my car (this was in 1997) and everyone saying it's hardly ever warm enough to need it. Now find me a car without aircon! And when you're sat in a jam on a hot day, those fans blowing warm air just won't cut it. Likewise on these trains, and any others.

When a 365 has come out of the depot for the evening peak and the windows were shut for the train wash, letting it start to cook everything inside, opening the windows does nothing to cool the train at King's Cross until it's been on the move for a while - like approaching Potters Bar and beyond.

And it's noisy throughout as you get the air coming in, and the window you opened doesn't help you as you're sat under it not behind it (if facing the direction of travel). Nor do people standing in the vestibules benefit, who in fact roast as the air skips them due to the side panels blocking the airflow. And if there's any delay and you stop, then that's it for the ventilation.

One more problem is that with some trains still not having retention tanks, you still get HSTs and overflowing Mk4s spraying within some tunnels and when you fly along in your 365 (or indeed any other stock with openable windows) you'll often draw in that nasty stuff. That in itself is possibly a good reason to have sealed windows (bar ones openable in emergencies).

 

[samuelmorris]

Come summer, I would happily take a 'sealed' train with A/C over one with openable windows, to the extent I might even delay my journey slightly for one. As an example at Liverpool Street I will routinely bypass the xx35 Southend Victoria service (321) for the xx38 Colchester Town service if operated by a 360, and there are several other equivalents.

That said, Coach H on an East Coast Mk 4 set, the A/C can be incredibly fierce on those (not to mention absurdly loud) - I've been too cold on one of those whilst wearing three layers before, when on both the other trains I used on that journey I was plenty warm enough in just a T-shirt.

 

[455driver]

That said, Coach H on an East Coast Mk 4 set, the A/C can be incredibly fierce on those (not to mention absurdly loud) - I've been too cold on one of those whilst wearing three layers before, when on both the other trains I used on that journey I was plenty warm enough in just a T-shirt.

It must have been a long one or you would have been arrested for indecent exposure!

 

[bramling]

I've said it many times, and will continue to do so, but the lack of aircon on the 365s and openable windows is NOT a good thing. Even the hopper vents rarely work, which doesn't help either.

I think they're great trains. Some of the best perhaps, but the lack of aircon is a real problem.

Let's face it, we have rather more than just a few hot (or humid) days a year. I remember having the same argument with friends about getting aircon in my car (this was in 1997) and everyone saying it's hardly ever warm enough to need it. Now find me a car without aircon! And when you're sat in a jam on a hot day, those fans blowing warm air just won't cut it. Likewise on these trains, and any others.

When a 365 has come out of the depot for the evening peak and the windows were shut for the train wash, letting it start to cook everything inside, opening the windows does nothing to cool the train at King's Cross until it's been on the move for a while - like approaching Potters Bar and beyond.

And it's noisy throughout as you get the air coming in, and the window you opened doesn't help you as you're sat under it not behind it (if facing the direction of travel). Nor do people standing in the vestibules benefit, who in fact roast as the air skips them due to the side panels blocking the airflow. And if there's any delay and you stop, then that's it for the ventilation.

One more problem is that with some trains still not having retention tanks, you still get HSTs and overflowing Mk4s spraying within some tunnels and when you fly along in your 365 (or indeed any other stock with openable windows) you'll often draw in that nasty stuff. That in itself is possibly a good reason to have sealed windows (bar ones openable in emergencies).

As I said, the trains would benefit from the window being able to open to a halfway position, which would reduce any issues with noise or draught. I would still prefer to be on a train where it's possible to have some control over the system. Being too cold can be mitigated against by ensuring one leaves the house wearing sufficient layers, but when stuck in a sealed carriage which is too hot (either through air-conditioning setting or defect) there's nothing you can do. I'm not convinced our climate is so hot to requite air conditioning in any case, this year (one of our better summers) only saw a few really hot days, I can only think of one occasion in the past year when I used the air cooling on my car, I could quite happily live without it, indeed because I use it so rarely it's not particularly efficient anyway.

 

[samuelmorris]

Oh stop You know what I mean!