Deserving the penalty fare

[royaloak]

Airlines are point to point, there are no intermediate stops!

not exactly the same as trains are they.

 

[Ferret]

Why don't you go and read the unfair terms in consumer contracts regulations and the consumer protection from unfair trading regulations?

Why? Are advance ticket terms and conditions really that unfair? The argument that 'if you didn't like the restrctive terms, why did you click and buy' will always hold the upper hand in any court case.

 

[Failed Unit]

That is the thing at times you can never legislate for the customers that don't listen, ie at Newcastle for example (it could be anywhere) the 0830 service to London is running 25 minutes late, people get on thinking it is the 0900 service then get annoyed when they are told their ticket is invalid. I have heard people say I never heard and felt like saying I did 3 times!

I have had common sense as well. I was travelling from Leeds - Edinburgh. I arrived at York early and should have been on the 1405 to Edinburgh which was already 40 late due to a problem. The 1330 had not yet left and the gaurd let me on (after asking stating that I would miss my onwards connection in Edinburgh). If they had made me wait for my valid ticket they would have probably been paying me compensation.

It makes me wonder however if you have an AP from York - Edinburgh and it is XC only, if you know the XC train is over 1 hour like would east coast pass it. I guess it does no harm asking but don't be offended if the request is refused!
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Why? Are advance ticket terms and conditions really that unfair? The argument that 'if you didn't like the restrctive terms, why did you click and buy' will always hold the upper hand in any court case.

Not always Ryanair have lost some cases on fair terms and conditions, although personally I don't think the advanced fares are that bad. If you had bought my favourite £124 AP rather than the cheaper walk on fare I think you case would be for mis-selling rather than unfair terms, although if you buy on the internet it is just tough!

 

[yorkie]

in response to reading up consumer law, I don't need to read them, that's the job of any defending lawyer when these cases come to court, which they do in their thousands per year. The fact that not one lawyer has tried to use this defence means they're either all stupid, or they no that there is little or no point in trying.

As to the costs of court cases, the prosecutor employed by XC works on a no win no fee basis, so any cases unlikely to succeed don't go to court. Currently, everything that has gone to court has always been successful, so the only cost is to the person being taken to court anyway.

The TOCs daren't take the cases to court where the customer may win, and they often pay up "as a gesture of goodwill" when their staff act incorrectly while refusing to admit they were wrong so as to avoid setting a precedent. If someone had the cash, then they could take the TOCs to the cleaners.

 

[jon0844]

Airlines are point to point, there are no intermediate stops!

not exactly the same as trains are they.

Most train tickets are point to point, even if you can break your journey on some tickets.

In that regard, it's exactly the same!

--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

The TOCs daren't take the cases to court where the customer may win, and they often pay up "as a gesture of goodwill" when their staff act incorrectly while refusing to admit they were wrong so as to avoid setting a precedent. If someone had the cash, then they could take the TOCs to the cleaners.

As long as the TOCs keep settling, there never will be that test in court.

 

[royaloak]

Most train tickets are point to point, even if you can break your journey on some tickets.

In that regard, it's exactly the same!
.

I was talking about the train/ plane NOT the ticket, of course most tickets are point to point, IE where you are and where you want to be!

I mean everyone gets on the plane, it takes off, lands and everyone gets off, there are no intermediate calling points. How is that the same as a train calling at say 10 intermediate stations?

 

[jon0844]

I am not sure why it matters if a plane is different to a train in that one stops on the way (and, if I want to be really pedantic, some planes DO stop off on the way to pick up people and then continue on)?

 

[Greenback]

There's also no standing on planes. It could only work if the railway was run even more like an airline, with deliberate overbooking, no intermediate stations, standby lists, check in and the like.

 

[royaloak]

I am not sure why it matters if a plane is different to a train in that one stops on the way (and, if I want to be really pedantic, some planes DO stop off on the way to pick up people and then continue on)?

Not very many planes stop intermediately, it matters because you are comparing 2 different types of transport as if they are the same!

If I am allowed to use my AP ticket on an earlier train and at the intermediate station (which trains do) it fills up then somebody will have to stand because I am on the wrong train, do you consider that to be fair?

 

[yorkie]

If doing London to Glasgow people will compare plane vs train. For a journey like London to Milton Keynes then it's train vs road transport (bus or car).

In fact even for a journey like Littlehampton to Manchester, despite the hassle of getting to/from airports and the WCML upgrade, a member of this forum did one mode there, one mode back, it's a viable comparison and passengers will choose based on:

- price
- journey time
- suitable arrival/departure times
- likelihood of encountering jobsworths who want to make their lives a misery
- hassle / faffing about
- chances of delay

and other factors.

If we want rail to be competetive then we need to beat the airlines on as many of the possible deciding factors as possible. Anyone who wants the railways to be less competetive in any of those areas is not helping rail's cause, IMO.

 

[jon0844]

If you think of a plane, train, car or boat as a means of transport - then we can ignore the little differences for the sake of arguing differences in fares.

Of course you can't stand on a plane, but where is this argument going? We're talking about an advance ticket, which presumably has a seat reservation.

I merely mentioned Easyjet because they have a way of offering these ticket holders alternatives, which benefit both parties. As a result, a missed flight on Easyjet doesn't become useless and worthless. Likewise, if you want to go earlier and there's a seat - they'll happily let you as they can now sell your seat for the next flight.

All common sense stuff really, but at no time am I saying that TOCs become airlines and start having compulsory reservations, checking in baggage, security screening etc.

 

[royaloak]

Yes I am talking of an AP ticket and you are talking about being allowed to catch an earlier train and so therefore not the train with the reservation on it!

Oh and you can add checking in 2 hours before you are due to travel etc etc etc, a train is a train, a plane is a plane they are NOT the same and hopefully never will be, you like to take the best bits of air travel and forget about all the bad bits, if you are going to compare them then compare EVERYTHING, is that too much to ask!

 

[yorkie]

I agree with what you are saying, Royal Oak, but surely we can take the best elements of plane travel and integrate them? Of course I totally agree we don't want to be lumbered with the check-ins and stuff.

Let's face it, the airlines were the first with proper yield management. The TOCs followed suit with AP tickets and now with AP singles these are just like what airlines have - so yes TOCs do take ideas from airlines. The problem is that they are, in some respects, not taking the best elements of the idea.

I'd much prefer the train but we need to ensure rail remains competitive and the pricing should be perceived as fair. Otherwise the industry will lose custom to the airlines.

 

[A60K]

Very minor addition to what Yorkie said, which I agree with: Advance purchase tickets were actually introduced by British Rail, in 1988 or 1989 (can't remember which NFM now). They started off with just a very coarse range - originally just Apex, then Super Apex, with one price for each ticket, and only on a limited number of routes.

IIRC the approximate prices were around 50% off the price of a Blue (Super) Saver for Super Apex, and around 30% off for Apex. Perhaps that's a fairer system, although I acknowledge it doesn't give such fine control over the pricing as our multi-tiered Advance ticket pricing does now.

 

[cuccir]

People more knowledgeable than me might criticise some consequences but if I confine my proposal to just circumstances in which an invalid ticket might be presented and still have a residual value which can be excessed then they would be where a passenger is attemting to complete a journey as similar as possible to the one for which they hold the ticket. And where the variation to the time, route, TOC or whatever is comparable to the variations which the TOCs incur during times of disruption (and which the passenger accepts as variations to the service arising from circumstances which the TOC had not forseen)... there is something equitable about ticketing T&Cs which anticipates that unforseen alterations may delay (or cancel) services, and which also acknowledges that the unforseen can strike a passenger too, and that a committment can be varied within reasonable and understandable limits by both parties to the contract.

Quite; I think the current advanced ticket system misses this reasonable idea. I don't think anyone (at least, anyone here - the passenger in the OP might be different...) here is under the illusion that the cheap fares associated with the advance ticket can exist without restrictions; but there is a reasonable claim that a passenger who has made an attempt to have a valid ticket (but failed) should not be treated in the same way as a passenger who has made no attempt. The passenger in the OP made no serious attempt to try and gain a valid ticket; some sort of system as described in DaveNewcastle's post would allow passengers the opportunity to excess tickets/purchase discount full price tickets, when holding a now-invalid advance ticket, under certain restrictions. It would make the behaviour as described in this post even more clearly unacceptable as well.

 

[Deerfold]

Very minor addition to what Yorkie said, which I agree with: Advance purchase tickets were actually introduced by British Rail, in 1988 or 1989 (can't remember which NFM now). They started off with just a very coarse range - originally just Apex, then Super Apex, with one price for each ticket, and only on a limited number of routes.

IIRC the approximate prices were around 50% off the price of a Blue (Super) Saver for Super Apex, and around 30% off for Apex. Perhaps that's a fairer system, although I acknowledge it doesn't give such fine control over the pricing as our multi-tiered Advance ticket pricing does now.

I took advantage of one of these offers in 1992 - BR were offering a £19 day return (£14 with Y/P railcard) between Leeds and London . It was valid on Saturdays only on the 0505 and 0605 services Southbound and a variety northbound. I had to leave my normal station around 2230 the night before, sleep at Leeds Station (a member of staff kindly let me stay in a platform waiting room when they closed the station for the night) and caught the last trani back to my local station from Leeds. Certainly a journey I wouldnt have done at the normal fares.

 

[dk1]

I took advantage of one of these offers in 1992 - BR were offering a £19 day return (£14 with Y/P railcard) between Leeds and London . It was valid on Saturdays only on the 0505 and 0605 services Southbound and a variety northbound. I had to leave my normal station around 2230 the night before, sleep at Leeds Station (a member of staff kindly let me stay in a platform waiting room when they closed the station for the night) and caught the last trani back to my local station from Leeds. Certainly a journey I wouldnt have done at the normal fares.

Just goes to show you that there are some bargains out there these days. 18 years on from your epic overnighter at City station you can still get returns for 50p each way more than BR where charging you back then .

 

[142094]

Just done York - London for £16, a bargain. Even though I think that in many cases advance tickets are too cheap, I'm not complaining. More money in my back pocket.

 

[Deerfold]

Just goes to show you that there are some bargains out there these days. 18 years on from your epic overnighter at City station you can still get returns for 50p each way more than BR where charging you back then .

Indeed - I'm now doing the return journey every week, but not staying overnight at Leeds station. Usually paying under £30 for the return journey (£55 this week though).

 

[Greenback]

Easyjet now offers a flat rate rebooking fee if you miss a flight, which is 35 quid I think. Seems more reasonable than when you had to pay an admin fee + the difference in the cost, which could be hundreds by then. As I said before, if you turn up early and there's a seat on an earlier service, this is free. It even goes beyond that, as you can opt to fly to another London airport on the way back if a seat is available - if you're using a train, Luton or Gatwick might be equally convenient.

But the point is that Easyjet has positioned it itself deliberately in the low cost market, whereas the rail industry has to offer a walk on service as well. how feasible is it to turn up at a regional airport and buy a ticket on the enxt Easyjet flight to a destination? Where there are only 2-3 flights a day, my experience is that the flights are always booked, indeed over booked, so it's just not possible.

If a low-cost airline can do things like this, a railway operator must be able to. The question is whether a TOC wants to be like Easyjet, or Ryanair (which seems to be the model TOCs are working to - grab every penny you can).

Also, the rail system has season tickets! There are now many longer distance commuters who don't necessarily use the same trains every day! To enable a wlak on service for anyone who wants to travel, plus the mass of season ticket holders, TOC's can't behave like an airline!

I am not sure why it matters if a plane is different to a train in that one stops on the way (and, if I want to be really pedantic, some planes DO stop off on the way to pick up people and then continue on)?

Beacuse the quotas allow for different journeys on the same train. For example, a morning train might have longer distance business travellers off to a meeting, short distance commuters, many of whom will be on a season ticket, and a host of other travellers getting on and off at every stop. How do you know if a seat is available when the train has already left its origin station?

If doing London to Glasgow people will compare plane vs train. For a journey like London to Milton Keynes then it's train vs road transport (bus or car).

In fact even for a journey like Littlehampton to Manchester, despite the hassle of getting to/from airports and the WCML upgrade, a member of this forum did one mode there, one mode back, it's a viable comparison and passengers will choose based on:

- price
- journey time
- suitable arrival/departure times
- likelihood of encountering jobsworths who want to make their lives a misery
- hassle / faffing about
- chances of delay

and other factors.

If we want rail to be competetive then we need to beat the airlines on as many of the possible deciding factors as possible. Anyone who wants the railways to be less competetive in any of those areas is not helping rail's cause, IMO.

Of course, but some people will be more price conscious than others, some will put a higher value on convenient departure times, some will be looking for reliability and punctuality. Other will want flexibility (in which case the car wins hands down usually!). But the railway has to compromise itself in a way that low cost airlines don't, as it has historical, legal and moral obligations to offer the range of services and fares that it does. A price of that obligation is that the terms and conditions of Advance tickets mean that they essentially have no value if not used on the booked train.

If there was true comemrcial freedom on the railway system (which I am against) then there would be some companies who would run direct, non stop trains between such places as Newcastle and London, at whatever fare levels they like, and they would make a good profit. Some people would be huge fans of them, but more people would feel inconvenienced/ripped off as a result. Give me a national network anyday - not that what we have is perfect but it's better than some of the alternatives!