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Deserving the penalty fare

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dk1

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Have to say the conductor on my Liverpool St to Norwich service yesterday was very proffesional. This 'suit' was sitting in Standard class & before the guard could speak he told him not too bang on about being on an alternative train to that he booked because it was a First class advance & he was now not in that accomodation. He was told that that made no difference whatsoever & that his train left a few hours ago & this ticket was now no longer a valid one. He became abusive but the guard kept his cool & 3 times gave him the option to purchase a £48.80 single. This muppet thought he had an audience on his side (how wrong can you be?) & in the end the guard replied that he refused to converse with him any more & RPIs would be informed to meet the train at Norwich. He ended up paying £97.60 for the journey. How i wish i could let him know that if he had only had enough manners to speak to the guard who is a very decent chap, that they could have sorted this out in London & it may not have cost him a penny. Why do some people have this dreadful attitude as it costs them very dear in life.

I just wished his fellow passengers could have seen the end result as i am sure it would have given them a good laugh for the rest of the evening :lol:
 
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yorkie

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That is quite funny. With an attitude like that, yes it sounds like he deserved it.
 

First class

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Very pleased to hear this.

The logic of some passengers never ceases to amaze me.

I've got an expired First Class Advance ticket.

I know, I'll sit in Standard on a later train...
 

royaloak

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Good on the guard, although when seeing similar things I have gone up to the guard and asked if he needed any assistance, the pax soon comes around when they realise that other pax dont agree with them!
Watch for all the "jobsworth" comments though :roll:.
 

Ferret

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Watch for all the "jobsworth" comments though :roll:.

I'm aware of somebody receiving a caution for quoting 'jobsworth' while an RPI was dealing with a fare-evader. Remember that interfering in the lawful activities of an RPI/TM is actually an offence under the byelaws - sure made me smile when I heard the numpty who thought he was being clever found himself in the brown and smelly!

And yes, well done to the guard. Kaching!!!!!!
 

mumrar

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It's one thing to be wrong, but to be sat upon a high horse whilst doing it. Quite often 'the suits' as they're described here show appalling attitude to staff and other customers. One today asked me if 'he looked like a person evading their fare' to which I replied 'yes, you have an invalid ticket and are refusing to purchase a valid ticket'. How disgusting our society infers being well dressed means you're a decent person (look at most court appearances by the defendant, and of course our decent and moral MPs who're always in suits).
 

DaveNewcastle

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. . . How disgusting our society infers being well dressed means you're a decent person (look at most court appearances by the defendant, and of course our decent and moral MPs who're always in suits).
Ha! I'm so pleased you said that! I walked into the High Court yesterday while a witness was being cross examined - despite his sharp suit, he had a very dodgy appearance. I reckoned he was untrustworthy and almost definitely guilty. Within 20 minutes I began to realise that he was the prosecuting witness - the expert from the government's Serious Crime detection unit! A highly trained ex-policeman!

Anyway - I agree, of course, with other posters, that the guard in this case did exactly the right thing. And in fact, the more someone protests that they are honorable, trustworthy, intelligent, authoritative or whatever, then surely that's all the more reason why they should be complying with the Terms and Conditions!

But I do have a couple of reservations - Firstly, I would like to think that the guard in this case was equally capable of showing sympathy and perhaps leniency in circumstances which require it - we don't know. We've all come across circumstances in which a traveller might have quite reasonable excuses for having invalid tickets. This just wasn't one of them.
And secondly, I do find it vexatious that a ticket (particularly an expensive one) can so easily become void - become absolutely worthless, and that presenting a paid-for ticket which is/was/will be valid several minutes before/after travel has no currency. (this perhaps was in the passenger's mind when begining with "I know . . but . . " and moving to std class).
This point is off-topic - not a criticism of the guard's response, but a wider winge about the value of a valid UK rail ticket (perhaps costing over £100) in anything other than the precise and exact operational circumstances to which it applies becoming worthless. (I've been in that position myself, and its tough having to pay twice for what feels like the same journey)
 
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Greenback

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It may be tough, but those are the T&C's of advance tickets! I was gutted once when i lost a ticket and had to buy a standard single from london back to South Wales, but gutted as I was, it was my own fault!
 

DaveNewcastle

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It may be tough, but those are the T&C's of advance tickets! I was gutted once when i lost a ticket and had to buy a standard single from london back to South Wales, but gutted as I was, it was my own fault!
Just the once?
You've been lucky!

My most annoying occassion was when I'd booked a Newcastle-London long in advance - it began with the local T&W Metro taking me from home to Sunderland to take a GC service to London but, on the morning concerned, there was an infrastructure fault with track circuits affecting the Metro. As a consequence, I got to Sunderland JUST AFTER the CG train had left. (They share the same platform). So I had to travel back to Newcastle and buy a walk-up fare at over £100, on NXEC as they were then. Much the same as your example, I guess.
I had no dispute with the T&Cs. I just had to pay again. (Paying three operators for one "journey").
But it does seem to be perverse that a passenger pays twice to make the one journey because of a fault within the entirety of the rail network. But if I was trying to turn this into a complaint, then I'd have to be addressing the political ideology which has fragmented the UK's railways.
Its that fragmentaion that separated the liabilities of the Metro train operator from an infrastructure fault in Gateshead from the liabilities of GC (a Train Operating Company on other metals).
I agree, neither of us had a complaint with the T&Cs of the actual contract we'd entered into. Its the application of a over-arching terms of national carriage to a highly fragmented matrix of commercial suppliers that can so easily put a passenger (even a well meaning and honest passenger as we all are on here) in a position of holding a ticket which has become invalid.
A paid-for and expensive ticket.
[I repeat, I'm not suggesting that the circumstances of the OP's report should have led to any other outcome]
 
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yorkie

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I think you may have been covered for that one Dave?

GC don't actually do Advance Purchase, unless it was a promotion? I am unsure where we stand with the Metro, but if it was a 'normal' rail ticket purchased (for which the Metro is valid on - AFAIK they accept any ticket that has validity between Newcastle and Sunderland and the heavy rail service was cut to allow more Metros so it's only fair!) then I see it as being covered in the NCoC definition of 'one journey'.

It may be tough, but those are the T&C's of advance tickets!

The issue is though that some of those T&Cs are unfair, and mean that someone can pay twice, while someone who is unwilling to pay and has to be convinced to cough up is only charged once, the same amount as the AP holder minus the price paid for the AP ticket. Only a crazy person would say that's fair surely ;)
 

DaveNewcastle

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Thanks Yorkie.
I see what you're getting at - but in that actual example, I was intending to use only separate walk-up tickets on both the T&W Metro and then on GC. Two contracts.

It was annoying on the day, tho', to be on parallel lines between Gateshead and Sunderland and passing the GC set (ECS from Heaton near where I live!) and then being passed by it again (which doesn't normally happen) and thereby missing it at Sunderland.
Its little examples like this that makes me wish the overall ticketing sytem worked otherwise!
 

mumrar

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The issue is though that some of those T&Cs are unfair, and mean that someone can pay twice, while someone who is unwilling to pay and has to be convinced to cough up is only charged once, the same amount as the AP holder minus the price paid for the AP ticket. Only a crazy person would say that's fair surely ;)
If a 16-25 railcard holder purchases an anytime return, then forgets their railcard, they end up paying for 1+2/3 price of the anytime fare. I think we all know that you want to get together with lots of disgruntled people, hire a lawyer, and have your day in court with these T&Cs but the fact is these get applied through either UPFN, PF or TIRs passing through the courts hundreds of times every year and have been for decades. Do you think the courts are blind to the faults in these T&Cs and are just waiting for you and your lawyer to come charging in on your supreme white stallion of justice?
 

jon0844

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How disgusting our society infers being well dressed means you're a decent person (look at most court appearances by the defendant, and of course our decent and moral MPs who're always in suits).

It's why all defendants are told to wear a suit, so it obviously works in some cases.

I've been on trains when it was a £10 penalty fare and people in suits have had the tenner in their hand when caught. They clearly knew it was fine to get caught every now and then, saving a fortune in the long run - their smug grin said it all; 'you might have got me this time...'. £20 might make them think twice, but we really do need a higher penalty or RPIs that aren't afraid to refer people to court for fare evasion.

Anyone can try it on and evade a fare. Obviously, if you go on a train at night or weekends, there's a good chance it will be some chavs bunking - but in the week, it's bound to be people smartly dressed who have gainful employment but just don't see why they should pay.

I can't understand why anyone on the train would side with these people, unless they're happy that part of their fare pays for him to travel free.

Now, if someone doesn't travel on the correct service with their advance ticket and goes up to the ticket office in advance, there's something to be said about being given the chance to pay the excess to the standard walk-on fare, so you're not paying full whack on top of your unused ticket. That's a goodwill gesture, and something you do BEFORE boarding.

There's always a chance that if the train isn't full, you'll be allowed to go without paying anything extra at all.

But, how do we know the ticket wasn't used and just found by someone who thought they'd give it a chance?
 

Aictos

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Happens on the East Coasts quite a lot, some passenger boarded the 0615 Kings Cross to Edinburgh service a few Saturdays ago with a Kings Cross to Edinburgh ticket valid for the previous day and expected to use it.

Got kicked off at Peterborough as the first stop and told to buy a ticket.

Another time, 3 chavs were travelling to Peterborough on a FCC - one of the chavs took his mate's ticket and chuck it out of the window, hence his mate now got PF'ed.
 

Ferret

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The issue is though that some of those T&Cs are unfair, and mean that someone can pay twice, while someone who is unwilling to pay and has to be convinced to cough up is only charged once, the same amount as the AP holder minus the price paid for the AP ticket. Only a crazy person would say that's fair surely ;)

Not necessarily so - I'm told some RPIs had a day at court recently to watch several prosecutions for fare evasion based on unpaid UPFNs/TIRs. Each case was won, and the minimum ching was £340, some got almost double that! I believe the fine was much greater if the defendant failed to attend court......

OK, in the circumstances where the guard manages to convince somebody to pay up on the train then you have a point, but when it goes to UPFN/TIR level then it's a whole new ballgame.
 

Failed Unit

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CT used to name and shame people who refused to pay the fares. Some of them were from Lincolnshire which really shocked me, in the sense that the only way you can get a ticket was on the train. I was beyond belief that someone would really get on a train with no intension of buying at ticket at all. This is the only way you would end up in court in this part of the world and to be honest the chances of not seeing the guard are slim unless they were planning on just looking out the window in the hope the guard would think they have been on since the last stop!
 

Oswyntail

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...Now, if someone doesn't travel on the correct service with their advance ticket and goes up to the ticket office in advance, there's something to be said about being given the chance to pay the excess to the standard walk-on fare, so you're not paying full whack on top of your unused ticket. That's a goodwill gesture, and something you do BEFORE boarding....
That would be sensible. There must be thousands of reasons for missing booked trains other than laziness or personal disorganisation
On occasions, Mrs O has been booked on an advance ticket by her employers, who then insist she stays at the relevant meeting beyond the time for her to leave to catch her train. OK, so she can claim the fare back, but it means she has to be missing the funds until she is refunded. But, in the OP case, there is no excuse - well done that guard. I would have added £10 to the excess for every extra minute spent arguing!
 

mumrar

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that's the companies fault for wanting the time to be flexible regarding the meeting length, and booking an inflexible ticket. The terms and conditions for tickets, the byelaws and the NCoC aren't hidden, they're available everywhere in all sorts of formats, not like the tiny small print at the bottom of a 15 second TV commercial.
 

A60K

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That would be sensible. There must be thousands of reasons for missing booked trains other than laziness or personal disorganisation

I believe that Deutsche Bahn operates (or operated) exactly that system with their SparPreis tickets, so that if you didn't get your booked train you pay the difference between the cheap fare you paid and the standard fare.


 

jon0844

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I believe that Deutsche Bahn operates (or operated) exactly that system with their SparPreis tickets, so that if you didn't get your booked train you pay the difference between the cheap fare you paid and the standard fare.

Which is perfectly fair in my opinion. You've not attempted to defraud anyone, and the TOC doesn't lose out in any way. Okay, they lost a seat on the other train - but someone may well have taken the seat and had a more pleasant experience.
 

Failed Unit

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Which is perfectly fair in my opinion. You've not attempted to defraud anyone, and the TOC doesn't lose out in any way. Okay, they lost a seat on the other train - but someone may well have taken the seat and had a more pleasant experience.

I think that there should be a disincentive, otherwise it makes part of the point of having walk on fares redundant.

It is striking the balance that is the issue.

You can buy an AP ticket for £60 when the single is £72 if you choose to walk on, if they allowed say half the value of your AP ticket to be considered when upgrading to the standard that may work.

If you could upgrade without penalty then less people would buy walk on fare as they would just by the AP and then upgrade if they left slightly later. However if someone was foolish enough to pay £124 for a single between London and Edinburgh which is more than the walkon single that would really be hurt to pay up again, and then pay less then they had already forked out for the first ticket!
 

jon0844

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Why would you buy an advance ticket then take it easy because you can simply pay the difference later on? I'd not want to pay more money if I could avoid it (getting my train), or at least not regularly, so there's little incentive to do this.

You're not being heavily penalised but you are having to shell out more money.
 

mumrar

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Anyone discussing this ever bought an advance ticket online? There's a little box and link that has to be ticked to say you've read and understood the terms and conditions, and furthermore by ticking the box and clicking continue/purchase, you agree to be bound by them. That's the point of no return. If you don't like it, or your plans are not concrete, don't buy the ticket and complain later. You've already agreed to pay the walk on fare being charged if you board a different train by ticking that box. There's no grey area, just black and white (waiting for yorkie to come along and tell me how it's unfair, he wants to go to court, blah blah *YAWN*)
 

clagmonster

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In the case described in the original post, I think the it excellent that the passenger has been penalised, and credit to the guard and the ticket inspectors at Norwich for that. However, I wonder whether there would be a case for prosecution for fare evasion. The passenger admitted that he knew the ticket was invalid to the guard, he made no effort to rectify this before boarding, despite Liverpool St having a staffed booking office, and as the train started there then there would have been ample opportunity to find the guard, to whom he could have proposed his idea of sitting in second class. Both of those opportunities before boarding the train he declined. He then refused to pay the appropriate fare to the guard. Surely, all of this added together comes to fare evasion.

In the case of passengers buying an advance ticket then wanting to travel earlier, assuming the ticket is worth more than £10 there is the possibility to excess the ticket with an administration fee. This is part of the terms and conditions which you have to agree to when buying online. I think the administration fee is neccesary in addition to the excess, as otherwise people would buy advance tickets for the latest train they could possibly be on, and still have the flexibility to upgrade to the flexible fare, effectively meaning that the advance has the potential to be fully flexible. I do feel however, that it is harsh that it is not possible to do this excess after the booked train has departed.

Similarly in the mentioned case of a passenger forgetting a railcard, if you go to a booking office you can excess to the non railcard discounted fare. I have seen this done by a guard on train, when leaving a staffed station while the booking office is shut. This, in my view is a fair solution.

However, in all these cases, the time to sort out the problem is before the train leaves. That way you are showing willingness to pay, demonstrating you are not a fair evader hence you are likely to get more leniency from staff. On the train, it should be full fare, penalty fare or prosecution all the way.
 

tony_mac

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There's no grey area, just black and white (waiting for yorkie to come along and tell me how it's unfair, he wants to go to court, blah blah *YAWN*)
Why don't you go and read the unfair terms in consumer contracts regulations and the consumer protection from unfair trading regulations?
 

yorkie

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In the case described in the original post, I think the it excellent that the passenger has been penalised, and credit to the guard and the ticket inspectors at Norwich for that. However, I wonder whether there would be a case for prosecution for fare evasion. The passenger admitted that he knew the ticket was invalid to the guard, he made no effort to rectify this before boarding, despite Liverpool St having a staffed booking office, and as the train started there then there would have been ample opportunity to find the guard, to whom he could have proposed his idea of sitting in second class. Both of those opportunities before boarding the train he declined. He then refused to pay the appropriate fare to the guard. Surely, all of this added together comes to fare evasion.
Normally I'd say that yes, a refusal to pay should result in a court case. But in the end he did pay and just under £100 is ample punishment IMO. It's greater than some 'fixed penalty notices' that the police give out for rather more serious anti-social crimes. So I think £100 on top of the original ticket is appropriate and fair, and serves him right without going OTT. It achieves all the aims: the passenger is unlikely to act such a way again, the railway gets an appropriate amount of revenue, there is no costly court case.
 

mumrar

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in response to reading up consumer law, I don't need to read them, that's the job of any defending lawyer when these cases come to court, which they do in their thousands per year. The fact that not one lawyer has tried to use this defence means they're either all stupid, or they no that there is little or no point in trying.

As to the costs of court cases, the prosecutor employed by XC works on a no win no fee basis, so any cases unlikely to succeed don't go to court. Currently, everything that has gone to court has always been successful, so the only cost is to the person being taken to court anyway.
 

DaveNewcastle

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Following the thread's shift away from the OP's report to more general situations . . .
Anyone discussing this ever bought an advance ticket online? There's a little box and link that has to be ticked to say you've read and understood the terms and conditions, and furthermore by ticking the box and clicking continue/purchase, you agree to be bound by them. That's the point of no return. If you don't like it, or your plans are not concrete, don't buy the ticket and complain later. You've already agreed to pay the walk on fare being charged if you board a different train by ticking that box. There's no grey area, just black and white
Well I guess I've found myself in this situation on several occassions over the years, though never felt any urge to complain about it. Its just a consequence of circumstances which I hadn't forseen - and yes, of course, if they had been reasonably forseeable then I wouldn't have committed myself to an advance ticket by ticking that box. That's what is meant by reasonably foreseeable!

I gave an example a few posts ago where the unforseen element was a track circuit fault affecting my local connection to the mainline station - other posters have give other examples, each with different degrees of responsibility of the traveller for the change of train. To be clear, I am not complaining that I have to pay again if I find myself wanting to travel on a train other than the one I had hoped to travel on.
But the point which I DO feel justifies a different policy on advance tickets which have become invalid is that they need not become absolutely worthless at a stroke. I don't think it significantly damages a TOCs revenue to allow a ticket to retain some residual value which could be of assistance to a passenger with altered circumstances.
Sure, we don't want rail staff to have to judge what circumstances might justify a residual value and which don't (tho' they seem to get such stories every day whether they want to or not anyway!).
So I would feel happier if a ticket simply retained some percentage of its face value for travel on comparable services, enabling them to be excessed up to the required value for the actual journey.

Its not for me to do the sums for the TOCs so I won't pretend to do so, but I guess there's a point up to which they would benefit - maybe not from much extra travel, perhaps from more willing and pro-active buying of excesses, but hopefully less of the "surprise" by passengers (genuine or faked) who are told their ticket is invalid. And less of the hard-done-by attitude of some passengers which is as much a consequence of the application of the T&Cs as they stand as it is a consequence of people attempting to travel with invalid tickets. (and being annoyed when they are prevented from "getting away with it").

People more knowledgeable than me might criticise some consequences but if I confine my proposal to just circumstances in which an invalid ticket might be presented and still have a residual value which can be excessed then they would be where a passenger is attemting to complete a journey as similar as possible to the one for which they hold the ticket. And where the variation to the time, route, TOC or whatever is comparable to the variations which the TOCs incur during times of disruption (and which the passenger accepts as variations to the service arising from circumstances which the TOC had not forseen).

In my own case, where buying a second Newcastle-London or Edinburgh-London ticket at walk-up prices at a significant cost, it would give me some more confidence to travel if my ticket went towards, say, 25% of the cost of an alternative service.

Finally, there's a lot of talk on here about "fairness" which doesn't impress me much - but there is something equitable about ticketing T&Cs which anticipates that unforseen alterations may delay (or cancel) services, and which also acknowledges that the unforseen can strike a passenger too, and that a committment can be varied within reasonable and understandable limits by both parties to the contract.
 

jon0844

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Easyjet now offers a flat rate rebooking fee if you miss a flight, which is 35 quid I think. Seems more reasonable than when you had to pay an admin fee + the difference in the cost, which could be hundreds by then. As I said before, if you turn up early and there's a seat on an earlier service, this is free. It even goes beyond that, as you can opt to fly to another London airport on the way back if a seat is available - if you're using a train, Luton or Gatwick might be equally convenient.

If a low-cost airline can do things like this, a railway operator must be able to. The question is whether a TOC wants to be like Easyjet, or Ryanair (which seems to be the model TOCs are working to - grab every penny you can).
 
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