Derby to Stamford (Lincs)

[Skymonster]

I'm travelling Derby-Stamford(Lincs) quite regularly at the moment, peak time, for which the Anytime return is priced £69.50. Derby-Leicester Anytime return is £13.20 and Leicester-Stamford Anytime return £20.20, total £33.40, a saving of over 50% (crazy). But buying those two tickets on the day is a bit of a faff as the machines at Derby won't sell both, meaning queuing for tickets or having to go out onto the forecourt at Leicester to buy the second ticket. However an Anytime return Derby-Peterborough is £34.60 and is valid either via Nottingham / Grantham or crucially, via Leicester. Although an Anytime return allows a break of journey both directions, am I correct in thinking buying a Derby-Peterborough return for the purpose of intentionally making only the Derby-Stamford portion of the journey is technically against the rules - albeit that the chance of being detected is remote?

Thanks in advance

 

[Romilly]

No, what you propose is technically within the rules. If there are no restrictions on break of journey, and starting/stopping short, then such actions are expressly permitted.

See this extract from the National Rail Conditions of Carriage:

16. Starting, breaking or ending a journey at intermediate stations
You may start, or break and resume, a journey (in either direction in the case of a return ticket) at any intermediate station, as long as the ticket you hold is valid for the trains you want to use. You may also end your journey (in either direction in the case of a return ticket) before the destination shown on the ticket. However, these rights may not apply to some types of tickets for which a break of journey is prohibited, in which case the Ticket Seller must make this clear when you buy your ticket.

The rights are meant to always apply to Anytime Returns, and certainly apply to your Derby-Peterborough anytime return.

 

[Skymonster]

Thank you Romilly

 

[bb21]

Who told you to buy the £69 ticket? The £26.20 Off-Peak Return is valid at any time (effectively).

 

[Clip]

Who told you to buy the £69 ticket? The £26.20 Off-Peak Return is valid at any time (effectively).

Im not sure the OP said anyone told them to buy it yet you are quite correct about the off peak ticket which is absurd but worth it on the reduction in price from the anytiem

 

[DaleCooper]

Who told you to buy the £69 ticket? The £26.20 Off-Peak Return is valid at any time (effectively).

What do you mean by effectively? When I look up the prices it only shows the £26.20 fare after 1000.

 

[bb21]

Very fishy.

According to NRE, the £26.20 fare has BT restriction, so effectively unrestricted.

I cannot see any hidden restriction either.

 

[DaleCooper]

Very fishy.

According to NRE, the £26.20 fare has BT restriction, so effectively unrestricted.

I cannot see any hidden restriction either.

The average passenger would never know that and nor, I suspect, would a lot of ticket office staff unless they had a particular reason to check the validity.

 

[bb21]

IIRC STAR (which EMT use) should say what the restriction code is on the first screen, and so does Avantix, so I would expect staff to at least check.

I see that brfares agrees with NRE in respect of the restriction code, so chances are it is the implementation of this restriction code that is fishy, not the restriction code itself.

 

[arb]

What do you mean by effectively? When I look up the prices it only shows the £26.20 fare after 1000.

According to NRE, the £26.20 fare has BT restriction, so effectively unrestricted. I cannot see any hidden restriction either.

In the unpublished restrictions for BT on BRFares, there is "not valid to arrive at St Pancras until 1125". The train for the first leg of the journey, from Derby to Leicester, continues to St Pancras. Could that be related to it not showing as valid until after 1000 in journey planners? The first train to arrive at St Pancras after 1125 is the one that departs from Derby at 1001...

 

[bb21]

It is a possibility.

 

[DaleCooper]

IIRC STAR (which EMT use) should say what the restriction code is on the first screen, and so does Avantix, so I would expect staff to at least check.

Not much help if you're buying online or from a TVM.

 

[bb21]

This is why this forum exists.

 

[Skymonster]

Arghhh! So EMT should sell me a £26.20 off peak return to Stamford at any time of day? That's not what they said, and its not what the TVM offers! It seems like I will have to have another chat with the staff at Derby!

Thanks,

Andy

 

[trentside]

Arghhh! So EMT should sell me a £26.20 off peak return to Stamford at any time of day? That's not what they said, and its not what the TVM offers! It seems like I will have to have another chat with the staff at Derby!

Do please report your findings back.

I can't get either the EMT or VTEC websites to offer the ticket for any train prior to the 1021, so there's something going on. It will possibly affect the journey planner on the TIS too, which is what a lot of staff will use to check restrictions - you'd be advised to ask them to check the restriction text in that case.

 

[John @ home]

Arghhh! So EMT should sell me a £26.20 off peak return to Stamford at any time of day? That's not what they said, and its not what the TVM offers! It seems like I will have to have another chat with the staff at Derby!

The full text of the Restriction for a £26.20 Off-Peak Return Derby - Stamford Lincs route Any Permitted is:

Restriction Code: BT
Restriction applicable: Mondays-Fridays only.

OUTWARD/RETURN TRAVEL: Not valid by any train timed to depart before 04:30.

NOTES: If travel is to/from or via Luton, Luton Airport Parkway or London restriction codes CI & CJ also apply.

http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/bt

The Restriction forms part of the contract between the passenger and the trains companies, so there is no doubt that this ticket is valid for outward travel from Derby at any time not before 04:30.

But that does not mean that it's a good idea to "have to have another chat with the staff at Derby". These staff have been trained to operate with the equipment provided.

We are fortunate that members of this forum are able to explain that the discrepancy arises because the software wrongly interprets the reference to restriction codes CI & CJ by excluding travel on any train which goes to, from or via Luton, Luton Airport Parkway or London at a restricted time, even if the passenger does not go within 50 miles of any of these places.

Fortunately, this error does not make the ticket invalid because the words in the contract are plain that travel is valid by any train not timed to depart before 04:30. The error does, however, make it a little more difficult to buy this ticket.

If I were travelling from Derby to Stamford between 04:30 and 10:00 on a weekday, I would buy a £26.20 Off-Peak Return Derby - Stamford Lincs route Any Permitted ticket online in advance and collect it from a machine at Derby station prior to travel. A WebTIS based site such as Virgin Trains East Coast is easiest for buying an Off-Peak Return without specifying any particular train on which it will be used.

 

[Paul Kelly]

I can't get either the EMT or VTEC websites to offer the ticket for any train prior to the 1021,

To get it to show, you need to generate an itinerary that gets from Derby (DBY) to Stamford (SMD) avoiding any train that terminates in London, and also follows a permitted route. This is quite a tall order. One possible itinerary is:
dep DBY 0700 arr NOT 0720 (EMT train to Nottingham)
dep NOT 0732 arr LEI 0820 (EMT train to Leicester)
dep LEI 0918 arr SMD 0959 (CrossCountry train to Stansted)
But because it has a 58-minute wait in Leicester and it's possible to leave Derby much later and connect into the same train to Stamford, it's very hard to make "normal" booking engines show it!

 

[Skymonster]

This off peak ticket Derby-Stamford really is a bag of doodoo. After initially offering the £69 fare this morning, and then me saying I'd been told the off peak was valid after 04:30, ticket office at Derby did sell it "oh, it's got a BT code"

But the TVMs at Derby won't offer the off peak at 07:00 and the barriers at Derby won't open with it - cue another debate... Grrrr...

But that does not mean that it's a good idea to "have to have another chat with the staff at Derby". These staff have been trained to operate with the equipment provided.

By chat, I didn't mean nasty - I meant, talk to the staff and see if we can't come to an accord that the off peak is valid on the 07:36 DBY-LEI - which myself and the lady on the ticket desk did (see above) even though the barriers / ticket line then presented a further problem. Hopefully there will be no more from the on-train staff!!

Thanks again for your help...
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Well, once on the trains it was surprisingly the guard on the Cross Country LEI-SMD that questioned the off peak ticket this morning, not EMT on DBY-LEI. After a bit of a debate it was accepted, but it's a sad day when customers such as me are put off buying a legitimate [off peak] ticket and consider buying a more expensive one, simply because the hassle caused by the railway computer systems and staff incorrectly challenge that legitimacy...

 

[robbeech]

What exactly did the guard on the Cross country service believe to be wrong with the ticket?

 

[LowLevel]

Off Peak (SVR) Tickets from Derby to Melton/Oakham/Stamford being valid all day with various routeing potential has always been a fairly well known anomaly for passengers and staff alike in the area so I'm surprised you had any grief over it.

A Derby to Melton Mowbray saver return is used regularly by people to travel Derby to Leicester and return another day as there's no Anytime return and the Off Peak (SVR) is only valid after 9 am with a CG restriction.

 

[Skymonster]

What exactly did the guard on the Cross country service believe to be wrong with the ticket?

Initially said fine, turned round then said, um hang on a minute I don't think that's valid now. Checked some little bits of paper, punched a few buttons on her machine, started to make a phone call (but didn't complete the connection), then said no it's fine and carried on.