Derby to Newark

[I like Class 153]

One day when I go to Newark on the train.

On the way I would go from Derby to Nottingham then Nottingham to Newark Castle.

When I come back, I'm thinking of going up to Newark Northgate railway station to get the East Coast Main line train to Peterborough then Peterborough to Leicester and finally Leicester back to Derby.
I was thinking of doing this before but at the time I didn't have a timetable for those trains but I now I do.

 

[MCR247]

I doubt that that route is valid

 

[glynn80]

I doubt that that route is valid

And you would be correct.

For the benefit of the OP, the routes passengers are permitted to take using their ticket is defined within the National Rail Conditions of Carriage (http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/system/galleries/download/misc/NRCOC.pdf) as follows:

13. The route you are entitled to take

(a) You may travel between the stations shown on the ticket you hold in:

(i) a through train;
(ii) trains which take the shortest route which can be used by scheduled passenger services; or
(iii) trains which take the routes shown in the National Routeing Guide (details as to how you can obtain this information will be available when you buy your ticket).

Now the only one of the above where routes via Peterborough could possible be valid is (iii), using the National Routeing Guide (http://www.atoc.org/rsp/Routeing_Guide/). However when we check the guide we find this not to be the case.

Derby and Newark are both routeing points, Section C shows only one permitted map combination for use between said points, that being map EM (http://www.atoc.org/rsp/_downloads/Routeing_Guide/Map EM.pdf)

The only route that is really permitted to be taken between Derby and Newark are as follows:

Derby to Nottingham (also via East Midlands Parkway) to Newark.

I did glance quickly at the Easements section of the NRG but found none that I thought would be applicable to this journey.

 

[I like Class 153]

I really always wanted to travel an East Coast Mainline route. I could try.

 

[A60K]

I really always wanted to travel an East Mainline route. I could try.

You could, but you risk being made to buy a new ticket because yours is not valid.

 

[MCR247]

I really always wanted to travel an East Mainline route. I could try.

Is that not basically faredodging?

 

[I like Class 153]

I will have a try at it. If it doesn't go well next time I will go back though Nottingham.

 

[MCR247]

I will have a try at it. If it doesn't go well next time I will go back though Nottingham.

So your going to faredodge? It dosent matter how many times you do it. You know its not a valid route. People like you annoy me so much, everyone else pays for valid ticket, you have a ticket thats not valid but want to still try it. :-x

 

[Greenback]

Please don't try it. Either buy the correct tickets or return home on a valid route.

 

[yorkie]

Being off-route is not "faredodging", and if you were in a Penalty fare area then you can't get a PF for being off-route. Just ensure that you do not try to argue it is a valid route, and if asked to pay for a new ticket, then be prepared to cough up!

It's best to ask the guard "am I okay to <station> on this?" before getting on if doing an invalid route that is slightly dubious. I've done that before with e.g. Manchester to York via Sheffield. However in your case the route isn't slightly dubious; it's absolutely preposterous! So there's no point even asking.

For this particular journey, the cheapest ticket to allow what you want to do is a Derby to Peterborough SVR at £21.30.

The chances of a Derby-Newark being accepted via Peterborough are slim (especially given about 4 guards will probably check this ticket!), and if it isn't, the guard may try to charge a higher excess than you would otherwise have paid, for example the NXEC guard may ask you for a Newark-Peterborough SDS at £20.30 (on top of the ticket you bought) and still leaving you Peterborough-Leicester-Derby to do! Then the XC guard may ask you to pay £19.50 for a SOS to Leicester. I am unsure what excess they should or would charge, but the minimum would be the difference between your ticket and the £21.30 ticket, and the maximum is potentially a lot more.

I strongly recommend you buy a Derby to Peterborough ticket for this journey.

 

[MCR247]

Being off-route is not "faredodging"

I know it isnt strictly faredodging but look

Invalid route

• You know that you need a ticket for that route and you dont have one
• You will pay if needed
• But you want to try and get away with it
• 80% of other passenger will have paid extra to do this route
• They will probably in the end be paying for your ticket becasue of fare rises so they can install barries to stop people like you

Faredodging, not much different

 

[yorkie]

80% of other passenger will have paid extra to do this route

?!!

No sane passenger would go by this route! Only an enthusiast scratching off a new route would want to do it.

They will probably in the end be paying for your ticket becasue of fare rises

Why/how is this the case? Enthusiasts have been doing routes by longer journeys than a "normal" would take for decades, just to experience the route. This does not cost anyone anything. If it did, Rovers would not exist.

Now, I am not defending the OP using this route, I have already told him what he should do. But saying that if the OP takes a longer route it will cause fare rises is just plain daft. Let's keep things in perspective!

so they can install barries to stop people like you

If you replaced checks by guards with barriers, it would open the door to all sorts of utterly bizarre routes and no-one would stop you.

So, in fact, the opposite of what you say is true!

Given that the OP isn't trying to find a cheaper fare for a journey to Peterborough and only wishes to go a longer route, he would not exit any barriers. Barriers would not stop him. If an Oyster-style smart card approach was adopted across the National Rail network his journey would, in fact, effectively be valid, provided it did not go over whatever the time limit is.

Faredodging, not much different

Something that isn't even punishable by a PF can hardly be compared to dodging. There is no offence committed unless the OP refuses to pay an appropriate excess. I'd be shocked if he managed to do this journey without being charged an excess, and I suspect he'd be asked for more money than if he bought a valid ticket in the first place. So he is daft if he refuses the advice. But just daft, not a criminal as you suggest, and he isn't going to cause fare rises by choosing to take a longer route.

 

[tony_mac]

a Derby to Peterborough ticket isn't valid via Newark, is it?

We know that he isn't actually fare-dodging, but I don't see how a guard should be expected to believe that - he would be a long way off any valid route - and he couldn't be followed back to Derby to check that he isn't actually fare-dodging!

 

[clagmonster]

Derby group and Peterborough are both routeing points.
The routeing permissions for Derby group to Peterborough are: CN NL.
Map CN gives:
Derby group-Loughborough group-Melton Mowbray-Oakham-Peterborough
Derby group-Loughborough group-Syston-Melton Mowbray-Oakham-Peterborough

Map NL gives:
Derby group-Nottingham Group-Loughborough group-Melton Mowbray-Oakham-Peterborough
Derby group-Nottingham Group-Loughborough group-Syston-Melton Mowbray-Oakham-Peterborough
Derby group-Chesterfield-Nottingham Group-Loughborough group-Melton Mowbray-Oakham-Peterborough
Derby group-Chesterfield-Nottingham Group-Loughborough group-Syston-Melton Mowbray-Oakham-Peterborough
Derby-Nottingham group-Grantham-Peterborough
Derby-Chestefield-Nottingham group-Grantham-Peterborough

The Nottingham group contains Attenborough and Beeston, so doubling back there is not a problem on the first 4 routes using map NL.

As far as I can tell Derby-Peterborough via Newark is not a valid route, unless I have missed something.

 

[yorkie]

I've double-checked and it is valid for a circular journey via Nottingham, Grantham, Peterborough, and Leicester (I knew because I have bought one before), but it is not actually valid via Newark. It would probably be accepted though (unlike the ludicrous Newark ticket via Peterborough). In light of this, I think there is no one ticket that is valid for such a circular route.

The best I can come up with is a combination of Derby-Peterborough to the outskirts of Nottingham and resuming at Grantham, if you time it right you can get a train that calls at Netherfield (in the peaks) which is just a 5 minute walk to Carlton. Then get a Carlton to Grantham, this is valid via Newark and is only £6.50 SDS (£7.00 CDR), this is only 10p more than a Newark to Grantham SDS at £6.40.

e.g.

Nottingham 1545
Netherfield 1551

(Walk - 5 mins)

Carlton 1619
Newark 1648

I don't see why Nottingham-Grantham isn't valid via Newark; it does not create any anomalies, and it may be useful for some passengers. Carlton - Grantham is valid via Newark and is the same price. Carlton is in the outskirts of Nottingham.

 

[ashworth]

Carlton to Peterborough is valid via Newark or Leicester and is £18 for a CDR.
Derby to Carlton is £6.10 for a CDR
This may be cheapest combination.

Carlton on the outskirsts of Nottingham is a very interesting one which has a number of Day Return routes avilable for very cheap fares.
Carlton to Sheffield is £10.90 for a CDR (the same price as from Nottingham) and yet from Carlton you are allowed to travel via Newark and Doncaster or via Lincoln.
Much less than the unbelievably high £17 for a return from Newark to Doncaster.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

The OP could legitimately do the trip suggested with an 'East Midlands Day Ranger' at £27.60 together with a single for the section between Newark Northgate and Grantham on NXEC at £6.40 (Change at Grantham for an East Midlands train onwards to Peterborough).

 

[I like Class 153]

A day ranger sounds good. What time are you allowed to use it from?.

I might buy a single ticket from Derby to Newark Castle and I get another single from Newark Northgate to Derby via Peterborough and Leicester.

 

[yorkie]

I might buy a single ticket from Derby to Newark Castle and I get another single from Newark Northgate to Derby via Peterborough and Leicester.

We've been trying to tell you that a Newark to Derby ticket is not going to have any chance of being accepted via Peterborough & Leicester, have you not read this topic?

 

[I like Class 153]

:cry:. I wish that I could go from Newark to Derby via Peterborough and Leicester.

 

[blacknight]

Ticket barriers are on at Newark Northgate during the day so the only way you would get passed that & on to platforms is via ticket office to buy a new ticket, but please don't be offended if they give you directions back to Newark Castle station for your return journey to Derby with your original ticket.

 

[I like Class 153]

I will try and not get offended.