Denied Ticket Onboard

[ictl]

You can buy a Colchester to Hythe single ticket as an m-ticket if you have the Greater Anglia mobile app. So you could buy it in the morning without having to go to a ticket office/machine/conductor and activate it when you make your evening journey.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

Tickets for your entire journey should be purchased before boarding a train, unless there are no facilities to do so. If you board a train at a station, where facilities do exist, without a ticket (or tickets) for your entire journey, a Guard/Conductor is only obliged to offer the undiscounted Anytime Single or Return for the portion of the journey for which you do not hold a ticket. In Penalty Fares Scheme areas, a Penalty Fare may be applicable if you cannot show, when requested, a valid ticket for the portion of the journey that you are on.

 

[suzanneparis]

This is just a manifestation of the completely hopeless ticketing situation in the UK. People in other countries think our fragmented system is risible.

 

[hounddog]

In a thread full of red herrings and tangents can anyone confirm the answer to the original question: is an on-train ticket seller correct to refuse to sell a ticket for a future journey?

 

[plymothian]

Condition 19 of the NRCoC states:

You may use two or more tickets for one journey as long as together they cover the entire journey[...]

(conditions regarding stopping at the split unless one ticket is a season/leisure pass)

[...]If you do not comply with this Condition, you will be treated as having joined the train without a ticket and Condition 2 or 4 will apply, either to the entire journey, or from the last station where the train stopped at which at least one of the tickets was valid.

Condition 1.A.2 states:

Before you travel you must have a ticket or other authority to travel which is valid for the train(s) you intend to use and for the journey you intend to make, unless the circumstances set out in (b) (i) or (ii) below apply[...]

(conditions regarding if there are no ticket purchasing facilities).

Condition 4 is regarding penalty fares.

and add in Condition 18

If you travel further than a ticket allows If you travel beyond the destination shown on the ticket, you will be treated as having joined the train without a ticket for that additional part of your journey. Condition 2 or 4 will apply for that additional part of your journey.

So - YES, if a passenger starts their journey at a station where ticket purchasing facilities are available, they must hold all the valid tickets for their entire journey.


...of course we can now always debate the meaning of "journey".

I would say that a change of plan after departure from the first station cannot reasonably be classified as the original journey. But an intention to travel further than the ticket(s) held upon departure from the first station is.

The intended journey on this occasion had not yet commenced, so in fact none of this applied, just the guard/TE being awkward.

If he was, for example, dubious about selling an off peak ticket at peak time, and in the wrong direction, he could have simply written "restrictions advised" or "R/A" on the ticket.

 

[ainsworth74]

The passenger hadn't started the journey where the split was taking place though.

They were travelling from Colchester to London (in the morning). That evening they were going to travel London to Hythe (with a split at Colchester). So I do not think that that Condition applies as they hadn't started the journey yet!

 

[sheff1]

Tickets for your entire journey should be purchased before boarding a train, unless there are no facilities to do so. If you board a train at a station, where facilities do exist, without a ticket (or tickets) for your entire journey, a Guard/Conductor is only obliged to offer the undiscounted Anytime Single or Return for the portion of the journey for which you do not hold a ticket.

Sheffield booking office routinely refuse to sell a GM Wayfarer even though they could do so quite easily (i.e. the facility to issue the ticket is there but the staff refuse to use it). I therefore no longer bother to ask and purchase one from the Northern guard on the Hope Valley stopper. No guard has ever refused to sell one, regardless as to whether they reach me before of after Grindleford.

 

[Puffing Devil]

Sheffield booking office routinely refuse to sell a GM Wayfarer even though they could do so quite easily (i.e. the facility to issue the ticket is there but the staff refuse to use it). I therefore no longer bother to ask and purchase one from the Northern guard on the Hope Valley stopper. No guard has ever refused to sell one, regardless as to whether they reach me before of after Grindleford.

You should also be able to pick one of these up from a Paypoint shop.

http://www.tfgm.com/journey_planning/Tickets/Pages/tickets_paypoint.aspx

 

[plastictaffy]

If I'm asked for a ticket, I'll sell it. As long as Avantix will allow me to do it, I don't care where it's from and to or anything. Sounds like the guy just didn't want to, to me.

 

[Gerald Fiennes]

In a thread full of red herrings and tangents can anyone confirm the answer to the original question: is an on-train ticket seller correct to refuse to sell a ticket for a future journey?

Without thumbing through my TSA, I believe the answer to the question is 'yes' in the sense that the Conductor/TE is not obliged to offer a full retail service. This is only a requirement at normal, land-based ticket offices. TOCs can limit the range of tickets sold on-board as they wish.

But I agree this it is surprising that the conductor did refuse the issue in the circumstances described.

 

[lyndhurst25]

If I'm asked for a ticket, I'll sell it. As long as Avantix will allow me to do it, I don't care where it's from and to or anything. Sounds like the guy just didn't want to, to me.

Exactly, that's the way it should be. Now, if only brfares.com had a "Buy this ticket" function then all our problems would be over.

 

[rs101]

Without thumbing through my TSA, I believe the answer to the question is 'yes' in the sense that the Conductor/TE is not obliged to offer a full retail service. This is only a requirement at normal, land-based ticket offices. TOCs can limit the range of tickets sold on-board as they wish.

But I agree this it is surprising that the conductor did refuse the issue in the circumstances described.

I know it's probably a stupid question, but is it unreasonable to expect the same restriction to be applied on ticket sales no matter which Conductor/TE is on duty?

 

[Bletchleyite]

This is just a manifestation of the completely hopeless ticketing situation in the UK. People in other countries think our fragmented system is risible.

Do they really?

A bit like, say, the totally fragmented system in France, where you have one ticket per train, or that in Poland where the two state operators don't even accept each other's tickets?

It is a bit too complicated, but that is really the only issue.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

 

[hairyhandedfool]

Sheffield booking office routinely refuse to sell a GM Wayfarer even though they could do so quite easily (i.e. the facility to issue the ticket is there but the staff refuse to use it). I therefore no longer bother to ask and purchase one from the Northern guard on the Hope Valley stopper. No guard has ever refused to sell one, regardless as to whether they reach me before of after Grindleford.

I'm not sure where the GM Wayfarers fall in relation to the TSA, given they are TfGM products. Until July 2103, only stations within the TfGM area (plus other non-rail outlets) could issue them because they were scratchcards. IIRC, there was only one briefing I saw at the time (for Northern) that announced it could be bought elsewhere and I don't know if Sheffield ticket office (EMT) would have seen it. I also don't know what reason Sheffield would give for not issuing them. A Guard on the Hope Valley stopper should be well aware that they could sell it though.