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Demand Responsive Transport

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stevieinselby

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I think DRT with a single fixed point can work. It's many-to-many DRT that makes no sense.

A single point could be a railway station (with each run, which can go to multiple places in an area, timed for a particular departure), a supermarket, a hospital or similar. Or even you could have one that picks up somewhere like Windermere station timed for specific trains and does a run around whichever hotels people want to go to/from and gets back for the next train.

But because of VIA's prominence in the market, hardly any of the schemes actually work like that. With many-many DRT too few journeys tend to match up for it to be useful.

The fairly established US model of airport shuttle minibuses is an example of it working pretty well. The airport is of course the single point.
This is how a lot of Lincolnshire's CallConnect services work – they are based on a town and all journeys are designed to bring passengers into the town and take them home again. I'm not sure if journeys that neither start nor end in the main town are possible, their website is quite vague on the matter, but the way that it's set up with each small zone focused on connecting a specific town to its hinterland means that that will cover the majority of journeys. But this is a service that has been running for nearly 25 years, long before the venture capitalist apps were even a distant dream, so it's built around what works for operators and passengers rather than what works for a code developer who wouldn't set foot on a bus if their life depended on it.
 
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Bletchleyite

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This is how a lot of Lincolnshire's CallConnect services work – they are based on a town and all journeys are designed to bring passengers into the town and take them home again. I'm not sure if journeys that neither start nor end in the main town are possible, their website is quite vague on the matter, but the way that it's set up with each small zone focused on connecting a specific town to its hinterland means that that will cover the majority of journeys. But this is a service that has been running for nearly 25 years, long before the venture capitalist apps were even a distant dream, so it's built around what works for operators and passengers rather than what works for a code developer who wouldn't set foot on a bus if their life depended on it.

I think it's fair to say that a couple of firms have "had" a load of Councils etc by selling them something that would never really economically work as billed. It's quite astonishing how they fell for it and enthused about it (particularly the Councillor responsible for it in Milton Keynes) despite them in essence having been sold an utter pup in terms of its actual usefulness.

As I said, the model COULD work - one bus operating out of a supermarket doing an on demand dynamically planned round of about 40-45 minutes picking up and dropping off people and their shopping in nearby estates, for instance, or a couple doing it from the hospital with slightly longer rounds. But that isn't the model that has been sold, the model that they were sold just works as a cheap taxi service for the few that can actually get a booking and just lets others down.
 

PeterC

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Didn't Eastern National do some type of taxi service?
Called Countrycar. Used 2 Peugeot 508 estates from 1985 to 1990. I recall hearing the name but was busy raising a family at the time and wasn't paying much attentions to trains and buses.
 

Dwarfer1979

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I tried the approach of asking myself "if DRT is the answer, what is the question". I struggled to find an answer.

DRT is only conceivably good for travel that has high social need. Given the state of public finances, low-to-medium social need isn't going to be enough to justify hefty subsidy.

But DRT is only actually good for travel that has a high tolerance of uncertainty - until a few days or hours beforehand - about whether you will get a ride at the time you wanted, at a different time, or not at all.

Nearly all the major categories of high-social-need transport fail the tolerance-of-uncertainty test. Getting to a job? - you'd be lucky to last a fortnight when each journey request has only about an 80% chance of being met. An outpatient appointment? - good luck when you asking the appointments team to let you come back to them with your preferred time a week ahead of the appointment. Getting to an interview, an exam? Onward travel by train, bus or air where affordability requires you to fix your time several weeks ahead? Forget it.

Shopping is the one application where there is perhaps a reasonable level of tolerance of uncertainty. If someone can't get to the shops on Tuesday morning, then there is a fair chance that they might cope with going on Wednesday afternoon. But the widespread availability of online shopping substantially shrinks the ranks of those for whom travelling to a shop is the only way of keeping fed.

I could only think of one high-need category of use where most non-car-users would find DRT a solution - clothes shopping. What have I missed?
Many DRT systems do allow relatively long term booking and repeat booking functions so to a limited extent they do get used for employment/education movements and these trips are the most likely to have multiple booking as they are all likely to be heading to a similar area at a similar time. We run some DRTs where there is an issue getting a booking before 0900 now because of regular travellers having the vehicle booked up.

In terms of high social need reasons for supporting these services getting the isolated elderly and poor to their nearest shop for food shopping is actually quite important, they are the least comfortable with online purchasing (all the DRTs we do offer a phone line booking option even if they push the app for just these people), there are people who still do not have access to payment methods that would allow online purchasing and getting to the shops also has an important mental & physical health role for these groups as well so don't dismiss that group of off peak travellers.

In rural areas there is a benefit in DRT in allowing a service to be provided to more settlements with the same effective resource (we have a DRT route requiring 1 bus which replaced a 1 PVR scheduled service but twice as many villages are included in the area) but it relies on the booking and scheduling system working better than they currently do, I get a feeling from seeing reports that they still aren't quite flexible enough to adjust journeys (particularly when people are booking, rather than just saying nothing available actually offering times when it is) to get the best out of the concept. It is a very specific solution to a very specific problem, mostly rural, and will never be commercial as a bus but it does hit a need. The buses used tend to be slightly bigger than demand generally needs but low-floor vehicles are preferred for accessibility purposes (and avoiding the need to fit/maintain lifts) and operators favour the slightly larger Sprinters for their reliability over slightly smaller but less robust models from other suppliers.

A good DRT scheme should be examined to see if clear demand patterns to see if there are enough people travelling on specific flows or at specific times to possibly put together regular scheduled trips to serve those flows which may allow new passengers to be attracted whilst providing extra certainty for those established flows. Whether anyone is thinking about this, the DRT proponents probably aren't going to push that as it doesn't suit their agenda, and whether any of the latest collection of schemes will last long enough to do it in this manner (as opposed to replacing it at the end as the funding runs out) is a clear question.
 

Bletchleyite

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Many DRT systems do allow relatively long term booking and repeat booking functions so to a limited extent they do get used for employment/education movements and these trips are the most likely to have multiple booking as they are all likely to be heading to a similar area at a similar time. We run some DRTs where there is an issue getting a booking before 0900 now because of regular travellers having the vehicle booked up.

That sounds suspiciously like a fixed route bus service :)

In all seriousness I do think there is some scope in these systems to have bookable (because of the low capacity) fixed time/route runs particularly at commuter times, which makes it easier to plan. You could call it a hybrid system? If you ask for a given origin-destination pair you could be offered these first.

Indeed, the model where you book an arrival time in town* (with a slightly varying departure time which would be notified a couple of hours beforehand, having been told the earliest it could be when you book) and departures from town* are at fixed times seems to be the best one for me for rural or pseudo rural (low density suburban) DRT. That way you can also walk up to the vehicle and ask the driver if there's space and book there and then.

* For "town" pick any single fixed point, be that a supermarket, a hospital, a railway station or a town centre stop.

A good DRT scheme should be examined to see if clear demand patterns to see if there are enough people travelling on specific flows or at specific times to possibly put together regular scheduled trips to serve those flows which may allow new passengers to be attracted whilst providing extra certainty for those established flows.

...and I guess you do too :)
 

Tetchytyke

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A good DRT scheme should be examined to see if clear demand patterns to see if there are enough people travelling on specific flows or at specific times to possibly put together regular scheduled trips to serve those flows which may allow new passengers to be attracted whilst providing extra certainty for those established flows.

In all seriousness I do think there is some scope in these systems to have bookable (because of the low capacity) fixed time/route runs particularly at commuter times
The Connect Villages DRT service which operates in the sparsely-populated rural north of the Isle of Man does just that.

Ramsey is the town and the main traffic destination, but there is one other main village in the DRT area, Jurby, where there is a small industrial estate as well as the island's prison. So there are some fixed departure times from Jurby to Ramsey where you do not need to pre-book (from memory, one in the morning and one at lunchtime), and the same in the opposite direction (morning, early afternoon and teatime). The buses are timed to connect into/from the express bus to Douglas.

The advantage of this is that the DRT bus can take different routes into Ramsey depending on demand, rather than having to follow a fixed route and bounce round all the little villages even if nobody is waiting.

It must be working because the taxi drivers in Ramsey are constantly whining about it.
 

RT4038

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Just chatted with a couple of councillors at a rural county authority about Demand Responsive Transport (DRT). They were well aware of the problems - very expensive, and "flexibility" that translates into such uncertainty that it is no good for many vital use cases, including jobs, education and health appointments.

"But what alternatives are there?" they asked? My least-bad solution is subsidised taxis: they expressed scepticism that there is any legal basis for a local authority (or mayoral combined authority) to run subsidised taxis.

I know that Westlink operated car-sized vehicles at one stage - not sure what their legal status was, and whether that was only permissable as a temporary solution.
Are there any permanent subsidised-taxi operations being run by local (or combined) authorities? Or is there some legislative requirement that says that if an authority wants to fund a taxi-like service, it has to do so by filling perhaps 12% of a 16-seat minibus rather than 50% of a 4-seater taxi?
I would suggest that subsidising taxi operations has a number of issues:
  • Transfer of existing taxi business within the DRT area to the DRT at subsidised prices
  • Increase in number of trips being made by taxi due to the reduced prices
  • Controlling / capping the Local Authority budget
  • Challenges of auditing taxi journey orders and payments
  • Ethics of increasing public expenditure to a branch of the transport industry that is, to put it mildly, not exactly known for being tightly regulated in both employment and fiscal matters.
 
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I would suggest that subsidising taxi operations has a number of issues:
  • Transfer of existing taxi business within the DRT area to the DRT at subsidised prices
  • Increase in number of trips being made by taxi due to the reduced prices
  • Controlling / capping the Local Authority budget
Subsidised taxis clearly need some form of constraint on demand. The capacity of a rural timetabled bus may be seldom tested because demand is constrained by inconvenience (long gaps, slow speed, ie much worse than using the car if you have one). The demand for DRT is constrained by capacity. But the demand for subsidised taxis is almost infinite.

You would need to constrain taxi subsidies by limiting one or more of:

  • which individuals you are going to provide with a subsidised ride (eg a means test, and/or some test of access to other transport)
  • what travel purposes you are willing to subsidise (eg Yes for hospital appointments, No for a trip to the golf club for a lunchtime snifter)
  • how many trips per person per year you are willing to subsidise
None of these are attractive to a politician, and that is perhaps a partial explanation of why DRT is so widely tolerated despite the horrendous economics.

There is also a less obvious upside to diverting some public subsidies from buses towards taxis. The subsidised trips will serve to improve the economics of running taxis in an area, and so tend to increase the number of vehicles in operation. And this in turn will increase the chances that even self-funding taxi users will be able to find a vehicle available for any particular trip.
 

Julia

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Had one experience of my local DRT (Tiger, Huntingdon/St Neots) as it's almost impossible to get a ride anywhere near the time you ask for... was waiting for a heavily delayed Stagecoach 905 on my commute and one dropped someone off right next to me. Quickly fired up the app and reserved to the railway station, and by magic got a booking on the bus in front of me. I ask everyone else if they're going to the station and want to get on, but driver turns them away because they haven't booked on the app themselves, and he won't wait while they do so - "Rules Are Rules". So I get a 16-seater to myself and six people are seriously hacked off... how does that sort of operation remain credible?
 

PeterC

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Had one experience of my local DRT (Tiger, Huntingdon/St Neots) as it's almost impossible to get a ride anywhere near the time you ask for... was waiting for a heavily delayed Stagecoach 905 on my commute and one dropped someone off right next to me. Quickly fired up the app and reserved to the railway station, and by magic got a booking on the bus in front of me. I ask everyone else if they're going to the station and want to get on, but driver turns them away because they haven't booked on the app themselves, and he won't wait while they do so - "Rules Are Rules". So I get a 16-seater to myself and six people are seriously hacked off... how does that sort of operation remain credible?
If it wasn't pre booked then I assume that Hackney Carriage regulations would apply.
 

Teds

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Had one experience of my local DRT (Tiger, Huntingdon/St Neots) as it's almost impossible to get a ride anywhere near the time you ask for... was waiting for a heavily delayed Stagecoach 905 on my commute and one dropped someone off right next to me. Quickly fired up the app and reserved to the railway station, and by magic got a booking on the bus in front of me. I ask everyone else if they're going to the station and want to get on, but driver turns them away because they haven't booked on the app themselves, and he won't wait while they do so - "Rules Are Rules". So I get a 16-seater to myself and six people are seriously hacked off... how does that sort of operation remain credible?
Looking at the subsidy data for the Cambridgeshire DRT routes, the route you try to use (Tiger 11) has less than half the subsidy per passenger than the next two (East Cambridgeshire and Fenland) per passenger. It suggests that to achieve that result, there is a lot of unmet demand. Unsurprising really. The trial in Oxford which had multiple vehicles available in a smaller area still made a loss and suppressed demand at the peaks during the day.
 

Taunton

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"But what alternatives are there?" they asked? My least-bad solution is subsidised taxis: they expressed scepticism that there is any legal basis for a local authority (or mayoral combined authority) to run subsidised taxis.
There are of course a huge number of LA-subsidised taxi journeys, such as taking children from various qualifying groups to/from school.

Looking at the USA, there are a large number of medium/smaller urban areas, outside the principal large cities, which have some form of social service public transport, often something of a vestigial hangover from their public transport system which ceased to have any value a generation or more ago. Having hung on for so long, I am told that what has been the final killer of farebox patronage is the arrival of Uber/Lyft, which have scooped what little actual commercial public transport demand remained.

It's not apparent how these completely demand-responsive operations like Uber manage to keep themselves going without subsidy, whereas the authority-sponsored services do not. For reliability, it was found that they provided this far better than the former public service did, especially for things like medical appointments or going to the airport. The latter are often outside "normal" hours, very early departures and later returns, where the public authority dial-a-ride just didn't cover the hours.
 

edwin_m

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It's not apparent how these completely demand-responsive operations like Uber manage to keep themselves going without subsidy,
Probably as simple as that they charge a lot more, having driven out the competition such as it is.
 

stevieinselby

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It's not apparent how these completely demand-responsive operations like Uber manage to keep themselves going without subsidy, whereas the authority-sponsored services do not.
Because Uber was backed by vast amounts of vulture venture capital with the intention of undercutting all other services and running it a loss for several years, until all the competition had been driven out of business and people were habituated into using Uber for all their transport needs, and then they would slowly crank the price up and up and up until they were making big money. They make a lot of money through surge pricing, and their business model involves fleecing drivers by leaving them on the hook for a load of expenses that would be the responsibility of the business in any normal employment setup.
 
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