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Demand Responsive Transport

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Dai Corner

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Cheshire East are launching their on-demand rural service south-west of Nantwich on 4 October, called 'go-too'. Can be booked by app or phone and up to 14 days in advance, £3 per journey for adults and using two 16 seat minibuses. Runs between 7am and 9pm Monday to Saturday.

http://www.go-too.co.uk/home.aspx
It's interesting to see that you can book an 'arrive by' time in Cheshire East. This makes the service much more useful. 'Fflecsi' here in Newport also uses the via scheduling system but omits this feature.

You have the option of requesting a journey for a specific arrival time and provided this can be accommodated for the day/time needed, the system won’t accept any additional journeys that could compromise your arrival time.
 
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From the Leeds Flexibus FAQs, it seems that they are offering bookings a maximum of 7 days ahead (and a minimum of an hour). Bookings are first-come, first-served, with the provision that you can "book a week’s worth of buses at the start of the week to coincide with shift patterns"

So, once again, a service that is useless for outpatients appointments:
Q: "What appointment time would you like to see Dr Crippen on the 12th November?"
A: "Can I tell you on 5th November, which is the soonest that I will I know what time I can get a ride on the Flexibus, please?"

They talk about the service taking school pupils "on the school run". What if the family do not have anyone available at 0930 or whenever the bookings open, to keep hitting redial until they get through to try and secure bookings for the week ahead. If all slots have gone by the time they manage to make a request, is that the family's problem, or one for the Local Authority?

And why only for 12 years+? Kids move to secondary school at 11 years+, so in their first year, they will become eligible to use this service only when they hit their 12th birthday, with families or the Local Authority presumably having to make special arrangements for children between the time that the time that they start at secondary school and their 12th birthday. Do others do this too? It seems crazy.
 

Deerfold

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My main worry is that it'll go the way of the Metro Flexi-bus covering Dean Head, Norland and parts of Sowerby Bridge. It doesn't go to Halifax or Huddersfield, the nearest larger towns. It runs for 4 hours a day, so there isn't much time to connect at Sowerby Bridge to go further. Travel is not guaranteed unless you've booked at least the day before.

Unless you know it exists and is called Sowerby Ring and Ride it's very hard to find anything out about it at all.

 
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LUYMun

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Yesterday, Hertfordshire County Council has launched yet another on-demand service, called "HertLynx". It is under contract to Uno and will operate in north and east Hertfordshire, with the key hub town of Buntingford. Hertfordshire County Council has released a press statement about this:

Hertfordshire County Council | New on-demand bus service launched in Hertfordshire

New on-demand bus service launched in Hertfordshire​

Published: 17/09/2021 12:40:00​

A new on-demand bus service, HertsLynx, is launching in Hertfordshire from 19 September, as part of Hertfordshire County Council’s plans to improve transport in the county.
Residents in the east and north of Hertfordshire will be able to use a new app to order a bus pick up and drop off from virtual bus stops along routes where normal bus services are infrequent.
The HertsLynx service is designed to improve connections between rural villages and larger town centres, making it easier for people to get to work or school, go shopping, or travel to appointments, without needing to use a car or taxi.
HertsLynx can be used for travel anywhere in its operating zone, which is centred around Buntingford. There are no fixed routes on the service, instead passengers can be picked up and dropped off at a vast number of stops within this zone. Passengers can also travel to designated locations in the key hub town of Stevenage, Bishop’s Stortford, Royston, Baldock, Hitchin and Letchworth.
Phil Bibby, Cabinet Member for Highways and Transport, said: “I am really pleased that we’re launching this new on-demand bus service. We want Hertfordshire to be a cleaner, greener and healthier county, and part of that means providing practical and affordable alternatives to the car. We’ve listened to what residents in these rural areas of the county have been telling us about wanting more frequent and flexible bus services, and HertsLynx will certainly deliver that.”
Jim Thorpe, Managing Director for Uno, said: “We’re excited to have been successful in securing the contract to run the HertsLynx, the first demand responsive bus service in rural Hertfordshire, and look forward to working with our customers and stakeholders to introduce it to the county. It will be a fantastic addition to public transport provision and reach parts of the county not previously served.”
Journeys can be booked though the HertsLynx app, online at bookings.hertslynx.co.uk or over the phone on 01992 555513.
The cost of a journey will be between £1 and £4 depending on the length of the journey.
The HertsLynx service has been set up by Hertfordshire County Council with funding from the government’s Rural Mobility Fund.
Funnily enough the link after the statement, which is supposed to direct you to the intalink website, goes towards a dead link - the reason being that the address was "co.uk," not "org.uk"!

Anyway, here is the correct link for the Intalink website.
 
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Yesterday, Hertfordshire County Council has launched yet another on-demand service, called "HertLynx".
I love the FAQ:

What if you my chosen route is not possible due to high-demand?

HertsLynx will endeavour to always get you on the move when you need us. If it is not possible for our vehicle to pick you up from your chosen virtual bus stop, we will give you a choice of three alternative pick up points to choose from to ensure we can get you where you need to be.

This sounds like an urban scheme very lightly re-skinned for a rural setting. It seems that if there is no bus that can be in (say) Bishop's Stortford at the time you need to travel from there, you would be offered the choice of being picked up from the nearest three points that the vehicles could pick you up at the required time, even though those pickup points might be Royston, Baldock, and Stevenage (19, 20, and 22 miles away), and the reason that you want to use the service is because you don't have any other transport!

If the service can't offer predictable availability of transport, surely it would be more useful to tell people three other times at which you could take them between the points that they actually do want to travel between?
 

daodao

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Cheshire East are launching their on-demand rural service south-west of Nantwich on 4 October, called 'go-too'. Can be booked by app or phone and up to 14 days in advance, £3 per journey for adults and using two 16 seat minibuses. Runs between 7am and 9pm Monday to Saturday.

http://www.go-too.co.uk/home.aspx
I presume that local D&G routes 70, 72 and 73 will be withdrawn once this DRT goes live - can anyone confirm?

In Newport, the extensive Fflecsi service now introduced has been accompanied by complete withdrawal of some lightly used fixed bus routes and withdrawal of all Sunday and evening traditional timetabled bus services run by Newport Transport, apart from routes 29 (to Cwmbran and the new Grange Hospital) and route 30 (to Cardiff).

The new Cheshire East DRT website states that "You can book up to 14 days ahead or up to 5pm the day before you wish to travel." This is typical of most DRT services and is a major drawback, because it makes DRT useless for journeys not planned in advance. Anyone with access to a car would not consider using DRT.
 

Dai Corner

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In Newport, the extensive Fflecsi service now introduced has been accompanied by complete withdrawal of some lightly used fixed bus routes and withdrawal of all Sunday and evening traditional timetabled bus services run by Newport Transport, apart from routes 29 (to Cwmbran and the new Grange Hospital) and route 30 (to Cardiff).
Unfortunately the Newport service is desperately under resourced. Only four buses are out of an evening and the chances are you won't find one available if you don't book the day before, especially on a Friday/Saturday night. A commercially astute operator would have all nine out, fliers in the pubs/restaurants, notices at the bus station etc and give the taxis a run for their money.
 

RT4038

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Unfortunately the Newport service is desperately under resourced. Only four buses are out of an evening and the chances are you won't find one available if you don't book the day before, especially on a Friday/Saturday night. A commercially astute operator would have all nine out, fliers in the pubs/restaurants, notices at the bus station etc and give the taxis a run for their money.
Which would be fine if it were a commercial operation, but what would be the point, the rationale, of using taxpayers money to give the taxis a run for their money? Unfair competition is probably what it would be called.
 

Dai Corner

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Which would be fine if it were a commercial operation, but what would be the point, the rationale, of using taxpayers money to give the taxis a run for their money? Unfair competition is probably what it would be called.
Aren't subsidised timetabled buses unfair competition in that case? Note that Fflecsi is a bus stop to bus stop rather than door to door service and typically journeys don't take the quickest route as they pick up or drop off other passsenhers.

One would hope that on a busy night they would have enough custom to make a profit too.
 

edwin_m

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Aren't subsidised timetabled buses unfair competition in that case? Note that Fflecsi is a bus stop to bus stop rather than door to door service and typically journeys don't take the quickest route as they pick up or drop off other passsenhers.

One would hope that on a busy night they would have enough custom to make a profit too.
A scheduled bus, if carrying a reasonable number of passengers, has lower operating cost per passenger journey than a taxi. The passenger pay less, but can only travel where and when the bus runs, unlike a taxi where you pay more but (hopefully) get transported door to door at a time of your choosing. It's sort of competition but really targeting a different market - people who value money more than time (plus a few wierdos like me that won't use a taxi unless there is absolutely no alternative).

DRT is rather finely balanced between the two. You pay less than for a taxi but you get more flexibility than a bus, in theory at least. However, if it is made too attractive relative to the fare charged, then the funder is essentially providing a subsidised taxi service to anyone who wants it. This is rather ironic because the usual reason funders go for DRT is to reduce the money spent on subsidising bus services.

So if a DRT is providing an excellent service, then it's probably going to disappear quite soon!
 
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Can anyone suggest other forums where people discuss public transport policy, particularly from the user perspective?

As a "DRT sceptic" I feel pretty much a lone voice - and want to see if I can track down others who might want to share thoughts and strategies for pushing back against poorly-designed DRT plans by local authorities.

There's been the odd thread here - but are there more extensive discussions happening elsewhere?

DRT - Demand Responsive Transport
 
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carlberry

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Can anyone suggest other forums where people discuss public transport policy, particularly from the user perspective?

As a "DRT sceptic" I feel pretty much a lone voice - and want to see if I can track down others who might want to share thoughts and strategies for pushing back against poorly-designed DRT plans by local authorities.

There's been the odd thread here - but are there more extensive discussions happening elsewhere?
I don't think you're a lone voice as a DRT sceptic! The problem for local authorities is that there is (or was) some government money available for trials so they'll spend it using the available consultants and whatever trendy software solution somebody is selling at the time. However a pretty app cant hide the fact that a bus that people can order whenever they want to go to wherever they want is actually a Taxi and Uber has managed to take the costs out of that pretty efficiently. Therefore all that the modern DRT schemes achieve is bridging the gap between a taxi fare and a bus fare until the money runs out.
 

Bletchleyite

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I don't think you're a lone voice as a DRT sceptic! The problem for local authorities is that there is (or was) some government money available for trials so they'll spend it using the available consultants and whatever trendy software solution somebody is selling at the time. However a pretty app cant hide the fact that a bus that people can order whenever they want to go to wherever they want is actually a Taxi and Uber has managed to take the costs out of that pretty efficiently. Therefore all that the modern DRT schemes achieve is bridging the gap between a taxi fare and a bus fare until the money runs out.

And when the money runs out, that means you go from "infrequent tendered bus service" to "not able to get DRT at all because it's undercapacity" - which is what has happened in MK. I've tried to use MK Connect and have a one in 6 success rate of being offered a suitable journey (i.e. being offered one at all, or being offered one that was quicker than walking).

I'm definitely a DRT cynic. I think it can have a role, but that "many to many" DRT simply does not work (because it's rare for journeys to match up to result in a share, and where they do in large numbers you would put on a traditional timetabled bus service), and the MK scheme is a demonstration of it not working - it is just a subsidised taxi service using larger, and therefore less efficient, vehicles.

What might work is a form of DRT with one fixed point, e.g. based around hourly runs to/from a supermarket around its local area with advance booking strongly encouraged (e.g. by way of a discount). What definitely does work is the German Anruf-Sammeltaxi (literally "telephone call group taxi"), which is where you put a taxi service in a bus timetable for a rarely-used evening route, which allows that "insurance policy" to be there in case of e.g. having to work late, but it costs nothing if it doesn't run.
 
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Hophead

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Roger French (BusAndTrainUser.com) is equally sceptical and has visited most and posted his thoughts. Perhaps you could check out his blog and await his next lonely DRT ride.
 

Bletchleyite

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Roger French (BusAndTrainUser.com) is equally sceptical and has visited most and posted his thoughts. Perhaps you could check out his blog and await his next lonely DRT ride.

Indeed, his observations tally with mine, pretty much.

I think these will all fizzle out and disappear as the outside funding (plus the willingness of the likes of Via to charge a low rate for the software to build it a reputation) does so too. They are simply not effective, and you'd get the same thing (in essence) by subsidising fares with established taxi companies.

The ones that will stick around are the many-to-one rural ones which have advance booking and do stuff like "we will get you to the nearest big town to spend 3 hours there having lunch and going to Tesco, then take you home". But many-to-many in an urban context just doesn't work. Even Uber realised that you weren't going to get lots of trips that lined up - UberPool only allows sharing with one other person even though the car would fit 3-4 people, or UberXL 5-6.

The one thing they might be useful for is if you have a major new housing development or eco-town and you want to set up the scheduled bus routes based on "desire paths"*. Run such a system for 6 months, see what journeys people are making and at what times, and then tell the local bus companies about that, and invite them to come in and put the bus services on commercially (or put some out to tender).

* This is an established, though not very wheelchair/pram friendly, way of working out where paths should go in new developments (other than the obvious of alongside roads). Lay grass everywhere, and give it 6 months. Where you should build paths will be clear to see by the grass being worn down because lots of people have found it useful to walk that way. And if you look for damage in the form of tyre tracks, you'll be able to work out where your bicycle paths should go, too.
 
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Hophead

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Flexible rural routes to nearby towns already exist and are known to work, but the funding is from a different pot and DfT hasn't had the consultants round to sell it to them. Compass Bus 99 is a case in point - runs between Petworth and Chichester via one or two fixed points with pre-booked deviations. Been running for years, but with regular Enviro 200s and a phone line, not an app.
 

Dai Corner

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My experience in Newport (a city of about 150,000) where DRT is the only off-peak provision on the majority of corridors.

As a concessionary passholder it's quite nice to get a free ride home and save a tenner for a taxi if I'm not in a hurry. I might even stay another hour or two in the pub and spend my taxi fare on beer! But then I'm retired and have time on my hands.

The marketing and algorithms clearly aren't working as even with just four buses operating off-peak I've never had more than three fellow passengers on the 16 seat buses.
 

318259

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Now the Inverurie service has bedded in, it has been quite popular with the people who have used it. Lots of positive comments on social media and local Facebook groups.

Inverurie has a decent bus service if you're heading towards Aberdeen. Plenty of express services and local services serving the villages in between. Heading in the other direction, things were fairly brutal. That's where the DRT service has worked really well. Even if you have to book an hour in advance and wait a while, it's better than four buses a day, two of which are before 7AM and the others are at 1PM and 3PM.
 

Bletchleyite

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Inverurie has a decent bus service if you're heading towards Aberdeen. Plenty of express services and local services serving the villages in between. Heading in the other direction, things were fairly brutal. That's where the DRT service has worked really well. Even if you have to book an hour in advance and wait a while, it's better than four buses a day, two of which are before 7AM and the others are at 1PM and 3PM.

I think that's very debatable indeed.

It is for instance totally useless for doing something time-critical, such as a medical appointment, going to work or catching a train. A timetabled service is better for those things, even if infrequent, as you can plan around it.

By contrast, it's probably OK if you're just needing to go to Tesco on Saturday afternoon and it doesn't overly matter to you if you go at 1pm or 3pm, as you'll just be sat at home watching the telly in the other time anyway.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

The marketing and algorithms clearly aren't working as even with just four buses operating off-peak I've never had more than three fellow passengers on the 16 seat buses.

I don't think it's a faliure of marketing or algorithms. It's simply that many to many DRT does not often find journeys that genuinely match up.

Many to one DRT is much more likely to match up journeys and so works better. What you can also do with many to one is offer a choice of journey times instead of "now", which eases matching up.

For instance, if you base a vehicle at a suburban supermarket, that vehicle can do a circuit around the local area each hour, picking up and dropping off as it goes. Thus you can offer people a choice of slots* when booking rather than trying to match up random times. The system can also drive people to make the right choice (if not a passholder) by making the journeys that are already going to a particular area cheaper to encourage them to choose those areas, which is exactly what some supermarkets do with delivery slots.

Or you base one at the local railway station, which if it has an hourly service (as many do) you can book by stating which train you want to catch/will be arriving on, and your pickup time is advised accordingly within a roughly 1 hour window (if it does a 1 hour route). For the return trip it could also offer service on spec if there was a spare seat for the desired location, but booking would be preferred, so you might charge a little extra for not booking in advance.

* That is, you can book something like "pickup 10-11am, will arrive Tesco by 11am" and for going home "departure from Tesco 12 noon, drop off by 1pm" or similar. That ensures you an hour at Tesco, which is what most people would want for a weekly shop. You'd be given your actual pickup time much closer to departure, but you'd then know fairly accurately what it was - like happens with parcel deliveries by the more reputable couriers like DPD.
 
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Dai Corner

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don't think it's a faliure of marketing or algorithms. It's simply that many to many DRT does not often find journeys that genuinely match up.

Many to one DRT is much more likely to match up journeys and so works better
Actually, thinking about it, there isn't any marketing to speak of. Not on the daytime buses, at bus stops or even at the dedicated stand at the bus station.

I wonder whether having three of the four buses leaving the city centre on the hour every hour, following a demand-responsive route and getting back in time to leave again an hour later would be better? The fourth bus would do the 'awkward' trips.
 

Bletchleyite

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Actually, thinking about it, there isn't any marketing to speak of. Not on the daytime buses, at bus stops or even at the dedicated stand at the bus station.

I wonder whether having three of the four buses leaving the city centre on the hour every hour, following a demand-responsive route and getting back in time to leave again an hour later would be better? The fourth bus would do the 'awkward' trips.

Yes, that's an example of many-to-one DRT if the city centre is a single point for three of the buses, just substituting the city centre for the suburban supermarket in my example.

Arguably you could have a few taxis in the fleet (or a contract with a local taxi firm) and use those to do "awkward" journeys which don't match up. You'd only be offered those if your journey doesn't fit one of the many-to-one buses or a timely connection between two of them. (If they all meet in the centre at the same time, you can connect between them quite easily).
 
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There seems to be a consensus here that "many-to-many" (or "anywhere, anytime") DRT doesn't work in rural areas - and probably not in most suburban areas. This variant of DRT seems to be worse than scheduled bus for the ability to nudge people into travelling in the same direction at the same time.

But where is the hard evidence that might cause local authorities to pause and wonder whether they are sure they can buck a well-established trend when they propose yet another many-many DRT scheme?

For all the millions spent on trials and pilots, I can't find any evaluations with the sort of data that would help others learn lessons. There is the odd academic article, but even these shrink from trying to analyse the success of an individual scheme.

So, there seems to be a screaming need for a measure of success that is reasonably meaningful. But that seems really hard.

"Passengers per day" can give some idea - but is open to distortion if the service includes home-to-school runs: - a couple of nearly-full runs could mask low usage for the rest of the day. And in a mixed service area, with 2-mile trips to suburbs and 10-mile trips to distant villages, your not-too-bad numbers might mask the fact that you were doing a really bad job of serving those in the most need. (Both uncertainties applied to the data that I got from Derbyshire CC on their DRT around Ashbourne).

Two other obvious measures - Average passengers on the bus at any time, average bus miles per passenger - can identify services that aren't being used very much if the numbers are low, but not so good if the numbers are higher. They are particularly open to distortion where passengers only reach their destination after being taken "round the houses" - as graphically shown in this example from Roger French's blog:

img_7046[1].png
Direct route 2.6 miles; actual mileage 10.5 miles.


Another way of measurement would be to try and supplement data on passenger trips with data on the passenger experience - trying to assess how many of those who would have travelled by scheduled bus are getting to make the trip using DRT - and how many are not.

Some of those not travelling will be captured as failed requests by the better computer systems, and could presumably be identified through appropriate Freedom Of Information requests. But if there is a problem of low availability, many people will quite quickly give up trying, and so won't continue to manifest in the data. Would we expect them to disappear without trace, or would we expect letters to local newspapers (where they still function) or other protest? There doesn't seem much evidence of any negative feedback - why not?

To play Devil's Advocate, is it possible that a substantial proportion of "no-longer" users aren't that bothered? If we are comparing usage over several years (especially if you exclude a year or two for Covid), then there will be a fair number who, sadly, have died. But we would expect them to have been replaced by others whose health or finances have changed during that period to mean that they have started to need public transport. Perhaps they aren't vociferous because they don't know what level of service they ought to expect?

Others might have been marginal users - I had an elderly neighbour who used to ride 5 miles into the local town most days and return with just one or two items: it "helped pass the time".

Where we see timetabled services with significant (but non-commercial) levels of usage that are replaced by DRT that is moving substantially fewer people, is there an invisible problem of non-served needs? Or isn't there that much of a problem?
 

miklcct

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Two other obvious measures - Average passengers on the bus at any time, average bus miles per passenger - can identify services that aren't being used very much if the numbers are low, but not so good if the numbers are higher. They are particularly open to distortion where passengers only reach their destination after being taken "round the houses" - as graphically shown in this example from Roger French's blog:
Average passengers on the bus at any time is a good indicator, assuming that passengers only take the most direct service and won't take such detours as shown in the picture. This is also the reason I don't trust DRT services in general as it has no fixed routes.
 

Bletchleyite

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To play Devil's Advocate, is it possible that a substantial proportion of "no-longer" users aren't that bothered?

I've been quite vocal on the issues posed by MK Connect locally, but every time I've really tried to push it I've been shouted down by the people who are enjoying a subsidised taxi service (i.e. those who are able to get journeys booked to suit them), plus the Councillor involved (a staunch Green who in my view seems to, in general, be more into ideology than practicality) seems to take it as a personal slight when it is criticised and those people back her up.

I suspect with taxis in MK being cheap and plentiful, the local taxi firms and Uber have been the primary beneficiaries of this. But personally, while I have no problem with subsidising taxi service for people with special needs for whom use of the bus is not practical, I do have a problem with subsidising it for people going to the pub, which is what is going on here.

To be fair it may be that they are carrying more passengers on MK Connect than the previous subsidised bus routes* did - certainly one of them never had more than one or two on it when it passed near my house. But the question is whether those passengers are ones where the subsidy is providing a social benefit, or if they're just people who would previously have used Uber and are just using MK Connect for one-person-in-a-vehicle journeys which weren't served by the bus network before because it's a bit cheaper. I strongly suspect it's the latter.

* I do see the sense in some of those having been withdrawn as they were so low-used, e.g. the 24/25 which rarely had more than 2-3 passengers at this end. However, the complete removal of the Bletchley end of route 7, the former electric bus trial route which was fairly well-used and probably only just not commercially viable, was a very poor decision, and I suspect may have been to do with the operator of the DRT wanting a more viable route in the scheme as part of their technology demonstrator. I also find it interesting that Arriva have a new commercial-and-planning-gain route 3 that could reinstate many of the benefits of the 7 with a minor rerouteing that would not extend journey times or vehicle requirement, and that the Council seemingly haven't pushed them to do that.
 
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RT4038

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I've been quite vocal on the issues posed by MK Connect locally, but every time I've really tried to push it I've been shouted down by the people who are enjoying a subsidised taxi service (i.e. those who are able to get journeys booked to suit them), plus the Councillor involved (a staunch Green who in my view seems to, in general, be more into ideology than practicality) seems to take it as a personal slight when it is criticised and those people back her up.

I suspect with taxis in MK being cheap and plentiful, the local taxi firms and Uber have been the primary beneficiaries of this. But personally, while I have no problem with subsidising taxi service for people with special needs for whom use of the bus is not practical, I do have a problem with subsidising it for people going to the pub, which is what is going on here.

To be fair it may be that they are carrying more passengers on MK Connect than the previous subsidised bus routes* did - certainly one of them never had more than one or two on it when it passed near my house. But the question is whether those passengers are ones where the subsidy is providing a social benefit, or if they're just people who would previously have used Uber and are just using MK Connect for one-person-in-a-vehicle journeys which weren't served by the bus network before because it's a bit cheaper. I strongly suspect it's the latter.

* I do see the sense in some of those having been withdrawn as they were so low-used, e.g. the 24/25 which rarely had more than 2-3 passengers at this end. However, the complete removal of the Bletchley end of route 7, the former electric bus trial route which was fairly well-used and probably only just not commercially viable, was a very poor decision, and I suspect may have been to do with the operator of the DRT wanting a more viable route in the scheme as part of their technology demonstrator. I also find it interesting that Arriva have a new commercial-and-planning-gain route 3 that could reinstate many of the benefits of the 7 with a minor rerouteing that would not extend journey times or vehicle requirement, and that the Council seemingly haven't pushed them to do that.
I suspect that DRT is a half way stage of removing subsidised bus services and moving the affected passengers towards taxi and possibly shared taxi services. It eliminates complaints about fixed routes not serving a particular person, and the difficulty of using it gradually reduces the demand (people get lifts/don't make the journey/book a regular taxi [with friends]? at a higher cost). At some point DRT with bus drivers will be found too expensive and (like MK is going) it will be merged with the local taxi / private hire industry.
It will be very difficult to subsidise some taxi fares and not others (aside from perhaps tokens to some deserving people) due to the nature of the taxi industry, so that will be done by gradually increasing DRT prices to the point where the move to conventional (or perhaps shared) taxi is fairly seemless. Even the commercial bus services on the periphery will be in danger, as DRT nibbles at the edges and renders them uneconomic too. Won't apply so much to longer distance services, as taxi fares for indviduals are usually too expensive, but shared - possibly.

All falls down when (if?) the taxi industry (like the parcel delivery industry) can no longer operate in the black economy for whatever reason and costs start mounting!
 

ChrisC

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I’ve never used DRT as it isn’t a form of public transport in the area where I live. However, I have often visited locations, especially in rural areas, where DRT is the only form of public transport. It probably works well for those who live in those areas and regularly use it but I find it very complicated and of little use when just being a visitor to those areas. I regularly go walking in rural areas and sometimes like to be able use a bus at the end of the walk to return to my car. Even with a very sparse standard bus service the timetables can be viewed and the walk planned accordingly. The whole issue of having to register and book DRT in advance just does not work for occasional travel when visiting an area. Incidentally, my sister has lived in a village in Lincolnshire for the past 5 years that has DRT but has never used it because it all appears so complicated.
 

Deerfold

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In case anyone hasn't seen it and might be interested there was a discussion about this on Radio 4.


Unfortunately they don't seem to have heard much from people pointing out the downsides of DRT. It looked like the presenter might have been onto something when asking about lots of people needing to be in one place at the same time from different starting points, but the person promoting DRT simply said you'd need more vehicles. As the original thread of the programme was talking about places served at most several times a day by a service with a PVR of 1, I was surprised this didn't go into what the costs were for lots of vehicles.
 
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Dai Corner

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Thanks. I hadn't seen the programme in the listings but will listen later.

I'm not sure I agree with their statement that DRT 'works well in city centres and suburbs'.

They should have Roger French on. He's probably tried more DRT services than anyone and remains sceptical
 

Typhoon

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In case anyone hasn't seen it and might be interested there was a discussion about this on Radio 4.


Unfortunately they don't seem to have heard much from people pointing out the downsides of DRT. It looked like the presenter might have been onto something when asking about lots of people needing to be in one place at the same time from different starting points, but the person promoting DRT simply said you'd need more vehicles. As the original thread of the programme was talking about places served at most several times a day by a service with a PVR of 1, I was surprised this didn't go into what the costs were for lots of vehicles.
The programme is part of a series called 'Positive Thinking', and the programme certainly lived up to that. As far as I could work out two guests who have a business interest in DRT (Via and Tandem), one represented a user (Norfolk County Council*) and a representative from a professional body. When asked about who was going to pay as local authorities are cash strapped, one of the guests suggested employers and health bodies (both might in particular situations but not generally). I'm not certain I learnt a lot, I reckon I would learn more by looking through this thread from post #1.


* - that system covers an area that has been largely unbused since 1965, apparently. It is funded by the DfT's Rural Mobility Fund (for now) I suspect residents will have found alternative ways of getting around, although local taxi companies may not be too happy about it..
 
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