Demand for hourly Crewe-Shrewsbury stopping trains

[Philip]

Is there currently enough demand for rail travel from Nantwich, Whitchurch and Wem to justify these stations having an hourly service interval rather than the current system? I know it won't be popular having all services from Manchester making these extra stops, so is there a strong case for an hourly shuttle service, with Wrenbury, Prees & Yorton remaining 2-hourly request stops?

 

[zwk500]

My gut reaction is that Nantwich could probably justify 2tph, Whitchurch 1tph and the rest unlikely but you'd be running it as a slow stopper anyway so you may as well stop at as many of the smaller stations as you can fit in an hourly service without costing you an extra unit.

In another world, there'd be wires to Nantwich and the service that currently terminates on the low-numbered side would extend there, an hourly Manchester-Shrewsbury would then stop all stations west of Crewe and the Cardiff-Manchester would run nonstop on this section. But that would require investment in a rather large piece of infrastructure to get trains across Crewe without stuffing the WCML so won't ever happen.

 

[Kite159]

Crazy idea would be to hang over the stoppers to be run by West Midlands Trains as extensions to the Birmingham - Shrewsbury trains (considering the line is solely within England). Maybe hourly for Wem, Whitchurch & Nantwich with the smaller stations getting calls every 2 hours. TfW can continue running the services towards Manchester calling alternatively at Nantwich & Whitchurch.

 

[Meerkat]

Crazy idea would be to hang over the stoppers to be run by West Midlands Trains as extensions to the Birmingham - Shrewsbury trains (considering the line is solely within England). Maybe hourly for Wem, Whitchurch & Nantwich with the smaller stations getting calls every 2 hours. TfW can continue running the services towards Manchester calling alternatively at Nantwich & Whitchurch.

I have often wondered why this was a TfW service anyway. If it was an extension of the WMT stoppers to Shrewsbury it might also make a viable alternative to driving for people on the line to Telford and possibly Wolverhampton.

 

[Kite159]

I was also thinking along the lines of WMR bringing in their own cheaper fares (as that line is quite expensive for the distance) which could help overcrowding of the TfW services.

 

[Philip]

I have often wondered why this was a TfW service anyway. If it was an extension of the WMT stoppers to Shrewsbury it might also make a viable alternative to driving for people on the line to Telford and possibly Wolverhampton.

Or perhaps Northern could reinstate the Southport-Alderley Edge direct and also extend to Nantwich or Whitchurch, using bi-mode 769s to make use of the wires between Wigan-Manchester-Crewe?

 

[cle]

I always thought a Crewe-Cardiff (or somewhere) slower hourly pattern could mop up this route, and also the more commuter frequency need mentioned for Aber, Cwmbran etc into Cardiff, and enable a speeding up of Manchester-Cardiff. Crewe has the right bays for this - and of course, good onwards connections in every angle.

 

[Nottingham59]

But that would require investment in a rather large piece of infrastructure to get trains across Crewe without stuffing the WCML so won't ever happen.

Platform on the Independent lines, as was still in the HS2 plans in 2021?

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/60253155e90e0705676ddb41/F1_Crewe_v1.2.pdf

HS2 PHASE 2a INFORMATION PAPER (Feb 2021)
"a new platform at Crewe station on the ‘Manchester independent’ lines,
currently used for freight. This has been varied from an island platform on the
independents to that of a single facing platform on the Manchester
Independents with bi-directional track to allow passenger services, such as the
Cardiff-Manchester service, to approach from the west of Crewe and leave to
the east."

Sure, these lines are currently limited to 10mph, but that is still a lot faster than making passengers walk across the station footbridge at 4mph.

 

[zwk500]

Platform on the Independent lines, as was still in the HS2 plans in 2021?

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/60253155e90e0705676ddb41/F1_Crewe_v1.2.pdf

HS2 PHASE 2a INFORMATION PAPER (Feb 2021)
"a new platform at Crewe station on the ‘Manchester independent’ lines,
currently used for freight. This has been varied from an island platform on the
independents to that of a single facing platform on the Manchester
Independents with bi-directional track to allow passenger services, such as the
Cardiff-Manchester service, to approach from the west of Crewe and leave to
the east."

Sure, these lines are currently limited to 10mph, but that is still a lot faster than making passengers walk across the station footbridge at 4mph.

The platforms on the independent lines are indeed one possible solution, but forgive me for thinking anything in HS2 plans north of Handsacre might be considered 'back burner' at the moment.
My personal preference would be to remove the WCML trains by building a Crewe bypass line from Madeley-ish to where the line currently reduces from 4 to 2 north of Crewe (either as part of HS2 or separately), and then remodel the junction area to give a more flexible layout. But that's certainly on the 'crayons' pile.

 

[Nottingham59]

a Crewe bypass line from Madeley-ish to where the line currently reduces from 4 to 2 north of Crewe (either as part of HS2 or separately)

By that, do you mean at Winsford on the line to Weaver? Or around Sanbach on the line to Wilmslow?

 

[zwk500]

By that, do you mean at Winsford on the line to Weaver? Or around Sanbach on the line to Wilmslow?

Winsford, thanks! couldn't remember the name and didn't have opportunity to check.

 

[AndrewE]

The platforms on the independent lines are indeed one possible solution, but forgive me for thinking anything in HS2 plans north of Handsacre might be considered 'back burner' at the moment.
My personal preference would be to remove the WCML trains by building a Crewe bypass line from Madeley-ish to where the line currently reduces from 4 to 2 north of Crewe (either as part of HS2 or separately), and then remodel the junction area to give a more flexible layout. But that's certainly on the 'crayons' pile.

and sod all the people who currently change at Crewe? It's bad enough as it is, with the "fast" Euston- Glasgows not calling (and most of the Birmingham - Glasgows cancelled north of Preston.)
You are forgetting that this is a railway network which needs to serve the country, not just a means of getting London people wherever they want as quickly as possible.
I'm sure that Crewe isn't really the desired final destination of most of the people who travel to and from stations between Salop and there!

 

[zwk500]

and sod all the people who currently change at Crewe? It's bad enough as it is, with the "fast" Euston- Glasgows not calling (and most of the Birmingham - Glasgows cancelled north of Preston.)

The whole point of such a line would be to get the non-stopping trains out of the station area, to allow the station to better serve the interchanges for all those passengers connecting through Crewe.

You are forgetting that this is a railway network which needs to serve the country, not just a means of getting London people wherever they want as quickly as possible.

I have not forgotten that at all, indeed the entire point of this proposal is to separate the people who just want to get places as quickly as possible from the people making all sorts of connections at Crewe.

I'm sure that Crewe isn't really the desired final destination of most of the people who travel to and from stations between Salop and there!

Indeed not. Manchester is by far the biggest draw at the northern end of the Marches Line and my proposal is about making the connection across Crewe easier by letting more trains run east-west.

Before shouting at people, take a look at what they're suggesting and how it might have multiple benefits for the network as a whole.

 

[The Planner]

Platform on the Independent lines, as was still in the HS2 plans in 2021?

It isn't now.

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/60253155e90e0705676ddb41/F1_Crewe_v1.2.pdf

HS2 PHASE 2a INFORMATION PAPER (Feb 2021)
"a new platform at Crewe station on the ‘Manchester independent’ lines,
currently used for freight. This has been varied from an island platform on the
independents to that of a single facing platform on the Manchester
Independents with bi-directional track to allow passenger services, such as the
Cardiff-Manchester service, to approach from the west of Crewe and leave to
the east."

Sure, these lines will always be 10mph, but that is still a lot faster than making passengers walk across the station footbridge at 4mph.

I have altered in bold your statement above.

 

[AndrewE]

The whole point of such a line would be to get the non-stopping trains out of the station area, to allow the station to better serve the interchanges for all those passengers connecting through Crewe.

I have not forgotten that at all, indeed the entire point of this proposal is to separate the [London] people who just want to get places as quickly as possible from the people making all sorts of connections at Crewe.

Corrected that for you... There are almost NO non-stopping trains at Crewe! It's a very important interchange - actually its most important function. So cutting the number of trains calling at Crewe won't help will it - apart from people on the once-an-hour Euston Glasgows? Or do you think the Brum-Preston trains should skip Crewe too - or maybe all the trains coming from London on HS2? Warrington to Preston is the pinch-point on the WCML, you really shouldn't be proposing to remove services from across a swathe of the N midlands on such a shallow pretext. By making London to everywhere else as fast as possible you take away the options for all the people who live north of, say, Northampton! We pay our taxes too you know!

Indeed not. Manchester is by far the biggest draw at the northern end of the Marches Line and my proposal is about making the connection across Crewe easier by letting more trains run east-west

Maybe because they have through trains, and connections are so unreliable (or, to Scotland, unavailable?)

Before shouting at people, take a look at what they're suggesting and how it might have multiple benefits for the network as a whole.

Platforms on the independant lines would be good and I'm not decrying that idea.

 

[6Gman]

The whole point of such a line would be to get the non-stopping trains out of the station area, to allow the station to better serve the interchanges for all those passengers connecting through Crewe.

But there's only one non-stopping train per hour through Crewe so any effect would be minimal.

Going back to the original post there would be some demand for an hourly service (and it could allow a slight acceleration of Manchester - Cardiff) but it would require a hefty additional subsidy. Whether that could be justified ...

 

[Nottingham59]

It isn't now.

I have altered in bold your statement above.

Thank you

 

[Topological]

What would the time penalty of a platform on the independents for Manchester - Marches be?

If the Manchester-Marches train gets a clear path into 5 or 6 and then out again then I can see it accelerates above 10mph pretty quickly, but it is crossing the WCML and often there is no clear path. Not having the service cross on the level must bring some benefits to other services?

A stopping train using the bays, or Platform 12, has limited impact on the WCML itself, so could be pathed in hourly?

I could see an argument for Manchester - Stockport - Wilmslow - Crewe - Shrewsbury - Ludlow - Hereford - Abergavenny - Newport - Cardiff as an hourly fast offering and then an all stations Crewe to West Wales slotting in between the fasts. Although then maybe Liverpool to Cardiff provides the stopper between Shrewsbury and Cardiff and the Crewe to Shrewsbury just remains a shuttle?

 

[Krokodil]

I have altered in bold your statement above.

What's the reason that it can‘t be enhanced?

It's a very important interchange - actually its most important function.

It's the whole reason the place exists.

 

[AndrewE]

It's the whole reason the place exists.

Absolutely, which is why I am mystified by calls to "improve" London services by taking out stops at Crewe - or rebuiding Crewe or doing the N end of HS2 in such a way that trains cannot call there.

 

[zwk500]

Corrected that for you... There are almost NO non-stopping trains at Crewe! It's a very important interchange - actually its most important function. So cutting the number of trains calling at Crewe won't help will it - apart from people on the once-an-hour Euston Glasgows? Or do you think the Brum-Preston trains should skip Crewe too - or maybe all the trains coming from London on HS2? ...

First of all, like it or not but London is the dominant passenger origin and destination, revenue source, and wider economic benefits provider.

By making London to everywhere else as fast as possible you take away the options for all the people who live north of, say, Northampton! We pay our taxes too you know!

Absolutely, which is why I am mystified by calls to "improve" London services by taking out stops at Crewe.

The market is big enough to provide non-stop trains and other trains that stop. You've obviously got a bee in your bonnet about London vs the rest so I'm not sure how much point there is continuing to try and discuss it with you because you're now acting like you've had 1 lager too many.

Warrington to Preston is the pinch-point on the WCML, you really shouldn't be proposing to remove services from across a swathe of the N midlands on such a shallow pretext.

I've not suggested removing any services, in fact if you read my post you'd see I proposed extending services from Manchester across Crewe to improve connectivity.

 

[AndrewE]

so how does your

My personal preference would be to remove the WCML trains by building a Crewe bypass line from Madeley-ish to where the line currently reduces from 4 to 2 north of Crewe (either as part of HS2 or separately), and then remodel the junction area to give a more flexible layout.

square with not removing any services? HS2 will mostly take existing long-distance passenger services to free up space on the current fast lines for freight and more London regional/outer commuter services. I don't see your proposal as improving provincial connectivity at all. Getting the Manchester-Cardiffs of the flat junction woud be welcome, but it doesn't do enough.

 

[zwk500]

so how does your

square with not removing any services? HS2 will mostly take existing long-distance passenger services to free up space on the current fast lines for freight and more London regional/outer commuter services. I don't see your proposal as improving provincial connectivity at all. Getting the Manchester-Cardiffs of the flat junction woud be welcome, but it doesn't do enough.

Sorry, there should be 'fast' in that bold bit. I wouldn't reduce the number of calls or destinations at Crewe from today's number.

By removing the high-speed through lines you allow a lot of the junction geometry to be eased, especially if you tie it in to a Reading-level rebuild to provide more platforms with connections to more lines while providing greater parallel moves. Platforms on the independent lines would be a compromise solution.

 

[AndrewE]

Sorry, there should be 'fast' in that bold bit. I wouldn't reduce the number of calls or destinations at Crewe from today's number.

By removing the high-speed through lines you allow a lot of the junction geometry to be eased, especially if you tie it in to a Reading-level rebuild to provide more platforms with connections to more lines while providing greater parallel moves. Platforms on the independent lines would be a compromise solution.

I still disagree with you. What "fast" WCML trains are so important that people from Salop and Stoke and their extensive hinterlands cannot be allowed to connect in to them? The WCML service is inadequate as it is, with hardly any services from the W midlands and Crewe to Glasgow. There have already been calls (even plans) for an extra hourly Brum to Preston semi-fast, and until recently the rush-hour Euston Liverpool and vv used to skip Crewe.

 

[zwk500]

I still disagree with you. What "fast" WCML trains are so important that people from Salop and Stoke and their extensive hinterlands cannot be allowed to connect in to them?

Please stop being ridiculous. When did I say people 'wouldn't be allowed' to connect into other services? There would be both non-stop and stopping services.

The WCML service is inadequate as it is, with hardly any services from the W midlands and Crewe to Glasgow. There have already been calls (even plans) for an extra hourly Brum to Preston semi-fast, and until recently the rush-hour Euston Liverpool and vv used to skip Crewe.

A discussion about the optimal service for Crewe is a different thread.

 

[The Planner]

What's the reason that it can‘t be enhanced?

Money. The whole plan to speed the Independents up was reliant on the Crewe re-modelling as it was intended to be used as a diversion route during big blockades. That has gone so no benefit in doing it.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 29 Mar 2024 ==

What would the time penalty of a platform on the independents for Manchester - Marches be?

As it stands now? In the region of 12-15 minutes.

 

[peterblue]

Even stopping at Nantwich and Whitchurch on the Manchester- South Wales trains would be too big a time penalty for most IMO. They're sizeable towns, but not sure they're sizeable enough. Nantwich at least does have frequent buses into Crewe.

 

[Caaardiff]

Checking todays services:
9 services toward Manchester and 5 Southbound services call at Nantwich.
8 services towards Manchester and 6 Southbound services call at Whitchuch.

So they are already getting more than a 2 hourly service.

Personally I think the Crewe - Shrewsbury stopper should be extended to Hereford, stopping all stops Shrewsbury - Hereford which has a completely random stopping pattern with the Cardiff - Manchester and Cardiff - Holyhead. It could mean the ability of speeding up the Manchester services

 

[peterblue]

Maybe an idea, if feasible, introduce Whitchurch and/or Nantwich stops every 2 hours into the Manchester-S. Wales trains at the expense of leaving Church Stretton and/or Craven Arms. I think it'd have a comparable end to end time while potentially connecting more people.

 

[Topological]

Money. The whole plan to speed the Independents up was reliant on the Crewe re-modelling as it was intended to be used as a diversion route during big blockades. That has gone so no benefit in doing it.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 29 Mar 2024 ==


As it stands now? In the region of 12-15 minutes.

Thanks

That seems a lot, but I suppose the difference between 10mph and the speed that a train staying on the normal route is able to brake from and accelerate to would be high. Any 10mph train would also still have the braking and acceleration on parts of the line where the normal routed train is already much faster.

So unless someone finds other uses for a platform on the independents there is nothing doing. Two trains crossing the WCML on the level per hour really isn't enough is it?

(Wanders into rabbit holes of wondering whether Chester - Crewe - Manchester has benefits for a local service connecting existing Crewe-Manchester with the Chester shuttle were Chester - Crewe to be wired.)

In all honesty, once TfW get the 197s in service and Manchester - Cardiff is 5 carriages I cannot see much cost in having Manchester - Cardiff continue to serve places along the way. The problem with the line is that you are most likely to be on an overcrowded train, rather than the time taken (which will be slow whatever happens).