I was reading the other day some stories of different ways coal could be delivered to signal boxes, especially those out in the middle on nowhere. Some stories tell of large lumps of coal being thrown from tenders of moving trains, some even suggest some box windows were broken... How true are some of these stories? How was coal really / normally delivered?
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Delivering Coal to Signal Boxes
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High Dyke
Established Member
Speaking to a retired colleague, he mentioned that if a locomotive was detained near the signal box then a polite request to fill the coal bucket took place. He did relate the odd tale of a lump being delivered, at speed, from a passing train. When I started it was normal for delivery by road transport to the box.
Gloster
Veteran Member
The usual official method that I know of for remote signalboxes was for a short train including a coal wagon to go out, often on a Sunday or during a period when there wasn’t much traffic. Members of the local PW would go out with it and shovel six months or a year’s supply into the box’s bunker. Heavy stores would also be sent this way.
Later on boxes with reasonable road access would get coal delivered by a trusted supplier. ‘Trusted’, because there was nobody to check that the amount paid for arrived in full.
Later on boxes with reasonable road access would get coal delivered by a trusted supplier. ‘Trusted’, because there was nobody to check that the amount paid for arrived in full.
LYradial
Member
I do not know how true it is, but along with breakfasts, false teeth, uniform caps and others disappearing into the firebox it is a story that appears in many biographies that I have read
Gloster
Veteran Member
There are all sorts of tales of drivers and firemen unofficially letting signalmen have a bucket of coal or chucking down a lump or two, particularly if they felt that the signalman might do a bit to keep them moving (or hold them up if they wanted overtime). However, the amount they could supply was minuscule and not to be relied on: a box could get through several buckets or scuttles worth of coal a day in winter (and that still might not be enough to keep anything but the area around the stove warm). The railway was well-known for being parsimonious over the use of coal and trying to keep the amount delivered down.
A lot of boxes were converted to electric or gas later on as these were much easier to deliver. I worked one box which backed on to a coal yard, but it was a heck of a job to negotiate to buy coal from them after the official delivery let us down. Because boxes have so many holes, you sometimes had to have the stove belting out just to keep the area around it warm, which was easier in my day than in the days when you had your allowance for the winter and…that’s it. (I once opened the box at 23.59 on Boxing Day: it was freezing and I spent the next few hours huddled in my greatcoat.)
A lot of boxes were converted to electric or gas later on as these were much easier to deliver. I worked one box which backed on to a coal yard, but it was a heck of a job to negotiate to buy coal from them after the official delivery let us down. Because boxes have so many holes, you sometimes had to have the stove belting out just to keep the area around it warm, which was easier in my day than in the days when you had your allowance for the winter and…that’s it. (I once opened the box at 23.59 on Boxing Day: it was freezing and I spent the next few hours huddled in my greatcoat.)
LYradial
Member
I should have made it clear that I was referring to the lumps of coal being levered off the footplate to demolish the platelayers
cabin that was in many biographies signalmen getting coal from a loco was I think commonplace.
cabin that was in many biographies signalmen getting coal from a loco was I think commonplace.
Ashley Hill
Established Member
In his book Light Relief the author Jack Warland describes an incident whilst working Honiton Incline box which was a ground box.. He asked if a footplate crew could throw some coal out for the box. Later when working an up train they obliged by throwing a large lump off the footplate just before the box. Jack said this huge lump bounced and rolled towards the box before smashing ito it and causing much damage.
There were some official deliveries to boxes by train, such as drinking water. Coal was also exchanged for other goods such as hares/rabbits or poached kill sourced by bobbies, or in payment to those with a sideline in the box such as shoe repair. Newspapers from the paper trains were another useful trade.
Also, for those not familiar with coal, lumps almost the size of a breeze block could turn up, including in household deliveries.
Also, for those not familiar with coal, lumps almost the size of a breeze block could turn up, including in household deliveries.
At some remote locations staff's wives could also be picked up (and returned) for shopping trips.
weepingwillowb
Member
Different areas maybe had different practices?
...."The theft of coal valued at about 10d resulted in a fine of £4. or thirty days' imprisonment, being imposed on a Dubton, Montrose, man by Sheriff MacKinnon at Forfar yesterday. Three weeks were allowed to pay.
....Alexander Martin, Station Cottages, Dubton Junction, was found guilty, after evidence, of having on 12th February, at the coal depot at the north signal box, Dubton Junction, stolen a quantity of coal. He was represented by Mr E. V. Middleton, solicitor, Montrose.
....Thomas Petrie. stationmaster at Dubton Junction, said Martin, the ganger, who lived in one of the railway cottages at the north end of the station, had no authority to take coal from any of the depots.
....A platelayers' cabin at the south end of the station was used by the gang under Martin, and coal for this was obtained from passing engine-drivers. There was no written rule against surfacemen taking coal from these bunkers. He would have said accused was deliberately stealing, even though he was taking coal for use in this hut."
Dundee Courier, 15 March 1939
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...."George Pease, 64, signalman, Hatfield Peverel. was charged with stealing one cwt. of cool, value 2s. 6d., the property of the G.E.R., on Feb. 23.—Mr. Scott prosecuted for the G.E.R., Mr. H. W. Jones defended.—Mr. Scott said defendant had been in the service of the G.E.R. for 44 years. The Company asked the Bench to help them in insisting upon honesty—Det.Sgt. Loft stated that late on the Sunday night he took up observation at Hatfield Station with P.c. Barnes. At 4.30 on the Monday morning he saw Pease coming from the signal-box, where he had been engaged, carrying a bag containing one cwt. of coal, Asked what he was going to do with the coal, Pease said, "Take it indoors." Charged at Witham, defendant said, "I did not steal the coal; I got it off an engine, and the driver it to me." Witness said drivers did give little bits of coal for the signal-box fire, but they had no authority to give coal to anyone for house consumption.—Mr. Jones said the practice had existed for 50 years of engine drivers throwing pieces of coal off their engines as they passed a signal-box or fog man to keep their fires going. Pease had collected this coal, some of which fell off the engines as the trains went by, and as he had very little coal, he was taking some home. He had rendered 44 years' faithful service in the signal-box, with the lives of millions of people in his hands, and he was within a short distance of becoming entitled to a substantial pension.—Capt. Ffinch: Where was Pease registered for the purchase of coal for his house?—Pease: I have not been registered until lately.—Capt. Ffinch: Then where did he get his coal during the winter?—Mr. Jones: He burned but very little.—Mr. Scott said that so far as the G.E.R. were concerned they agreed that Pease should be dealt with as a first offender.—The Chairman: But there is the cause of justice to consider.—After the Bench had retired the Chairman said they found this case was put forward without vindictiveness, even with mercy. It was possible that this kind of thing had been going on more or less for some time. They imposed a fine of £5, and hoped this would not interfere with the pension.—Mr. Scott: So far as the G.E.R. is concerned the punishment will end there."
The Essex Newsman, Saturday, 6 March 1920
...."The theft of coal valued at about 10d resulted in a fine of £4. or thirty days' imprisonment, being imposed on a Dubton, Montrose, man by Sheriff MacKinnon at Forfar yesterday. Three weeks were allowed to pay.
....Alexander Martin, Station Cottages, Dubton Junction, was found guilty, after evidence, of having on 12th February, at the coal depot at the north signal box, Dubton Junction, stolen a quantity of coal. He was represented by Mr E. V. Middleton, solicitor, Montrose.
....Thomas Petrie. stationmaster at Dubton Junction, said Martin, the ganger, who lived in one of the railway cottages at the north end of the station, had no authority to take coal from any of the depots.
....A platelayers' cabin at the south end of the station was used by the gang under Martin, and coal for this was obtained from passing engine-drivers. There was no written rule against surfacemen taking coal from these bunkers. He would have said accused was deliberately stealing, even though he was taking coal for use in this hut."
Dundee Courier, 15 March 1939
.
.
...."George Pease, 64, signalman, Hatfield Peverel. was charged with stealing one cwt. of cool, value 2s. 6d., the property of the G.E.R., on Feb. 23.—Mr. Scott prosecuted for the G.E.R., Mr. H. W. Jones defended.—Mr. Scott said defendant had been in the service of the G.E.R. for 44 years. The Company asked the Bench to help them in insisting upon honesty—Det.Sgt. Loft stated that late on the Sunday night he took up observation at Hatfield Station with P.c. Barnes. At 4.30 on the Monday morning he saw Pease coming from the signal-box, where he had been engaged, carrying a bag containing one cwt. of coal, Asked what he was going to do with the coal, Pease said, "Take it indoors." Charged at Witham, defendant said, "I did not steal the coal; I got it off an engine, and the driver it to me." Witness said drivers did give little bits of coal for the signal-box fire, but they had no authority to give coal to anyone for house consumption.—Mr. Jones said the practice had existed for 50 years of engine drivers throwing pieces of coal off their engines as they passed a signal-box or fog man to keep their fires going. Pease had collected this coal, some of which fell off the engines as the trains went by, and as he had very little coal, he was taking some home. He had rendered 44 years' faithful service in the signal-box, with the lives of millions of people in his hands, and he was within a short distance of becoming entitled to a substantial pension.—Capt. Ffinch: Where was Pease registered for the purchase of coal for his house?—Pease: I have not been registered until lately.—Capt. Ffinch: Then where did he get his coal during the winter?—Mr. Jones: He burned but very little.—Mr. Scott said that so far as the G.E.R. were concerned they agreed that Pease should be dealt with as a first offender.—The Chairman: But there is the cause of justice to consider.—After the Bench had retired the Chairman said they found this case was put forward without vindictiveness, even with mercy. It was possible that this kind of thing had been going on more or less for some time. They imposed a fine of £5, and hoped this would not interfere with the pension.—Mr. Scott: So far as the G.E.R. is concerned the punishment will end there."
The Essex Newsman, Saturday, 6 March 1920
There must have been official arrangements for the deliveries of other stores, such as lamp oil. There must also have been arrangements for the routine delivery of traffic notices and other instructions.
In really remote parts, some barter arrangements involving coal applied to certain lineside habitations not necessarily directly linked to the railway. Back in PP&WJ days, Teapot Cottage beside Creetown bank on the Port Road in Galloway was known to offer a stiffening whisky to the passing crews of slow moving goods trains, availability being indicated by a teapot in the window. Whether payment was made in cash or kind (ie coal) is presumably now beyond living memory. Probably just as well too!
Gloster
Veteran Member
There were various methods of getting stores to remote boxes, but as far as possible they went by rail. Stores trains or wagons often circulated around on a fixed basis and could supply just about any general store required, including valuable (controlled stores) or dangerous ones (lamp oil, detonators). They might not stop at every box, but would be left at the supervising station which would be responsible for getting the stores out to the box, for example by using a PW trolley. The box would advise the stationmaster of what was needed and he would include it on his requisition form sent to the stores office in time for it to be sent out. Small stuff could be put in a box and sent in the guards van; stores department jealously held on to their boxes.
Notices for remote boxes would come out on a train, probably a specific one, and either handed down when the train made a special stop or flung out. My first box had the notices put in a pouch, secured around a short stick with elastic bands and then the guard of the 16.53 slung it out on to the grass outside the box; on one occasion the guard was a tad late and it ended up on top of the PW store. The return bag with anything in it was collected by the driver of the early morning parcels. At another very remote box the afternoon stopper paused to exchange water cans with us (cue heads out of window as people wondered why the train had stopped in the middle of nowhere) and also any notices.
Newspapers were generally only dropped off if the train was stopped. If we had Single Line Working it was quite normal for one of the sorters on a newspaper train to chuck a copy of the Mirror or Sun out to a box if the train passed slowly: they knew that we weren’t holding them up deliberately and were trying to keep them going as best we could.
Notices for remote boxes would come out on a train, probably a specific one, and either handed down when the train made a special stop or flung out. My first box had the notices put in a pouch, secured around a short stick with elastic bands and then the guard of the 16.53 slung it out on to the grass outside the box; on one occasion the guard was a tad late and it ended up on top of the PW store. The return bag with anything in it was collected by the driver of the early morning parcels. At another very remote box the afternoon stopper paused to exchange water cans with us (cue heads out of window as people wondered why the train had stopped in the middle of nowhere) and also any notices.
Newspapers were generally only dropped off if the train was stopped. If we had Single Line Working it was quite normal for one of the sorters on a newspaper train to chuck a copy of the Mirror or Sun out to a box if the train passed slowly: they knew that we weren’t holding them up deliberately and were trying to keep them going as best we could.
Ploughman
Established Member
Drinking water was also being delivered daily, often on the first train until the 90's.
Returns picked up by the same train.
The containers I remember where the green base and white top.
Returns picked up by the same train.
The containers I remember where the green base and white top.
BR also had messengers (Porters) who would deliver mail and publications at some boxes. There were also cleaners* at some busier outliers (e.g. Bow Jn.) who would double up as messengers. Those that were trusted would be authorised (by staff) to collect pay packets too.
* Most smaller boxes had local customs for cleaning, such as the early turn on a Sunday.
* Most smaller boxes had local customs for cleaning, such as the early turn on a Sunday.
I always find it fascinating to listen to people like yourselves who have actually worked on the railways / at signal boxes. Silly question time - How did you open these cans? did they have a screw top for example?
Some more excellent newspaper articles from @weepingwillowb, thanks once more.
Going back to coal - If a remote box was closed / switched out for a few hours, wouldn't the coal outside in a bunker be at risk of being "liberated"? I've also heard that crews on a longer stopover might be invited into a box by the signaller for tea / coffee in exchange for a decent lump of coal, did that happen from time to time?
Gloster
Veteran Member
Earlier cans were in various designs but generally similar to old-style milk churns, although often with a slightly broader base, and the whole top came off. The green and white plastic ones had a 3’ or 4’ round stopper in the top that was (supposed to be) held by a chain to avoid it getting lost. Do not mess with signalmen’s tea!
Yes, there was always a risk of coal being half-inched, but in a remote area there weren’t that many people to do so and the locals would suspiciously watch any ‘furriner’. You were more at risk in urban areas and some places had lockable bunkers.
Yes, there was always a risk of coal being half-inched, but in a remote area there weren’t that many people to do so and the locals would suspiciously watch any ‘furriner’. You were more at risk in urban areas and some places had lockable bunkers.
Stores deliveries by train still happen now to boxes if need be. Usually it happens if something is urgently required, although i've had and sent everything from an emergency loo roll to a bacon sandwich (also provided to the train crew in exchange for the delivery) during my time out in the sticks 
One of the few benefits of being at a token exchange point.
Blea Moor was one of the last to still have water delivered by train if I remember correctly. They have a tank now but from what I understand, its a bit of a legionella bomb so potable water still has to be delivered by the Mobile Operations Manager (MOM).
Hellifield also still had their coal fire until recently, i'm not sure if the MOM or a local coal merchant delivered their coal though.
One of the few benefits of being at a token exchange point.Blea Moor was one of the last to still have water delivered by train if I remember correctly. They have a tank now but from what I understand, its a bit of a legionella bomb so potable water still has to be delivered by the Mobile Operations Manager (MOM).
Hellifield also still had their coal fire until recently, i'm not sure if the MOM or a local coal merchant delivered their coal though.
In really remote parts, some barter arrangements involving coal applied to certain lineside habitations not necessarily directly linked to the railway. Back in PP&WJ days, Teapot Cottage beside Creetown bank on the Port Road in Galloway was known to offer a stiffening whisky to the passing crews of slow moving goods trains, availability being indicated by a teapot in the window. Whether payment was made in cash or kind (ie coal) is presumably now beyond living memory. Probably just as well too!
This reminds me of Harold Gasson's tale of the chap with a garden backing onto the railway who set up a chamber pot on a pole at the bottom of his garden to entice engine crews to try and hit it with a lump of coal. This was somewhere on the line into Birmingham Snow Hill, so not exactly remote!
Elecman
Established Member
Malvern Wells Signalbox has bottled water delivered as the original water supply came from a spring and tank in Colwall tunnel (the now disused bore) the tank is in very poor condition hence the water is no longer classed as potable
Schweppes (aka Coca-Cola) used to bottle Malvern water commercially, but I think they shut up shop around 2010. Does the Malvern Wells signaller benefit from bottles from the nearby Holywell spring or is it imported from elsewhere? If the latter, which seems probable, then reverting to the OT, this does seem to be rather like "taking coals to Newcastle"!
I was walking past Blea Moor box once when the weekly notices were delivered. The driver of a 156 blew his horn repeatedly to get the signallers attention, lowered the cab window and threw the bundle (held together with an elastic band) high in the air, they landed somewhere in the up loop.
Most signal box coal fires I came across were pot belly stoves. Googling ‘Romesse stove’ brings up lots of very typical images.
I found some great videos regarding Blea Moor box, video 1 shows a class 37 pulling up to the box, and the signaller exchanges his empty water containers in return for full ones. If you search The Signalling Record Society and Blea Moor you'll find it. Video 1, around 11 minutes in.
Gloster
Veteran Member
If you look carefully just before the cans are handed up, you can see the plug in the top: it is the red or green bit in the white top. I only ever saw green cans: perhaps the (Great) Western Region would have no truck with other companies’ colours.
And that is a 40: 40044 to be specific.
And that is a 40: 40044 to be specific.
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