Delayed train, missed connection, different VIA point okay?

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Hello.

Tomorrow I've booked my OH onto a train from the Furness down to Euston, and a connecting Northern service from the Furness line for before that. It was much cheaper to use Split tickets so that I have a Barrow Lancaster, Lancaster Coventry and Coventry Euston ticket rather than a through Euston ticket. This means, of course, the booked train is a VIA Birmingham service.

However, my question is - if, and this is VERY likely as the last time I tried to travel from Barrow, three were cancelled in a row - the Northern service is cancelled or delayed, thus causing the connection to be missed, the rule is of course you can take the next service...

... but as my partner's end destination is Euston, the next service would then be the fast Trent Valley service that avoids Coventry, and it would make sense that this would be the one to take if the booked one was missed due to Northern's fault. Can this be done, assuming that when the railway causes the journey to be screwed/missed, the rule that trains must call at the split ticket station is waived, in favour of simply just trying to get the customer to their final destination?

Or am I going to have to tell my other half to sit at Lancaster for an hour, skip the fast train that would negate the delay caused by the missed connection, and wait for the next Euston via Birmingham service, because the tickets being used are Lancaster Coventry Coventry Euston?

@Watershed and @Hadders I know you are both fantastic with routing advice so I'd be so grateful if you have any here.

Many thanks

 

[najaB]

Or am I going to have to tell my other half to sit at Lancaster for an hour, skip the fast train that would negate the delay caused by the missed connection, and wait for the next Euston via Birmingham service, because the tickets being used are Lancaster Coventry Coventry Euston?

AFAIK, yes, since your partner wouldn't have a ticket that covers the journey from Coventry to Euston. This is different than if the the train passed through the split point without calling, or they held a single ticket that was routed to avoid Birmingham. That said, if your partner speaks with station staff and explains the situation they may well be able to help them.

If they get permission to take the more direct service, make sure that they get it in writing.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

AFAIK, yes, since your partner wouldn't have a ticket that covers the journey from Coventry to Euston.

But that's exactly what we do have.

 

[185143]

AFAIK, yes, since your partner wouldn't have a ticket that covers the journey from Coventry to Euston. This is different than if the the train passed through the split point without calling, or they held a single ticket that was routed to avoid Birmingham. That said, if your partner speaks with station staff and explains the situation they may well be able to help them.

If they get permission to take the more direct service, make sure that they get it in writing.

Or, at the very least, make sure they get the ok from the new TM after Preston as well. This kind of thing is where paper tickets are better in my opinion, as the station staff can stamp and endorse them.

Do Avanti ever do arrival checks at Euston? I've never been checked on arrival, though I don't use Avanti into Euston very often and that's not to say it never happens of course.

I've been authorised to do such things in the past and have arrived early due to a missed connection, though admittedly this was back before the days when TOCs were quite as harsh as they are these days. The best one I can think of was missing the DalesRail at Preston with a Northern day ticket due to a late running train from Liverpool and a Virgin TM allowing me to use her service up to Carlisle. That resulted in a VERY early arrival! Thought I'd ask as I'd missed the connection, and would have taken a refusal gracefully as I had no reason to actually go to Carlisle otherwise.

 

[Starmill]

If there's a journey being made from say Askam to London Euston, and the train from Askam to Barrow-in-Furness or Barrow-in-Furness to Lancaster is cancelled or delayed, it's up to Northern then to arrange for the customer to get to their destination. If the delay is expected to be over an hour, the PRO (Rail Passengers' Rights and Obligations Regulations 2010) would also apply.

Assuming the customer is at the first station on time, if the customer for any reason cannot then travel on the booked service from Lancaster to London Euston they should contact any member of staff they can, such as the conductor or the station staff at Lancaster, and ask to be re-routed. Alternatively they should contact Northern asking the same question, either by social media, or on the telephone at 0800 200 6060.

Unfortunately there's a possibility that they'll be given poor onward travel advice as you suggest, about waiting for longer than necccesary. If this happens just keep asking for further advice from different sources. If you don't get any advice that you think meets Northern's obligation to get the customer to their destination with a minimum of delay, they have two choices. One is to buy a replacement ticket for the new service and send in a claim later for its cost (in addition to any compensation claimed on the original booking for delays, depending on how long the delay actually is). The other is to simply follow whatever advice is offered and then later make a claim for lost time and breach of duty. Each approach comes with possible downsides. For the former, the risk is that you will be out of pocket the value of the new ticket and will be at risk for that value while you try to reclaim it. A successful claim may need recourse to litigation here. For the latter, the risk is that the delay in arrival at London Euston could be much longer, and arguing that you're entitled to compensation as a result of a delay that wasn't mitigated is usually pretty awkward to achieve. The train companies like to say that you are entitled to the money you paid for your a ticket back and nothing more. This isn't true if you decline to claim under Delay Repay and instead pursue a claim for reasonable damages - there's no reason that can't exceed the value of the tickets, it's just more awkward. Be aware that if you are claiming for damages you have some obligation to mitigate the costs involved - so no replacement tickets in First Class where original tickets were in Standard, as a random example, unless there is definitely no availability at all in Standard.

At the end of the day what's right for you will depend most on your tolerance for hassle and exhausting the Northern complaints procedure, and your willingness or otherwise to litigate to get your desired outcome. You would do very well to be aware of all of that before choosing an approach, as once you do, you may be stuck to it.

 

[najaB]

But that's exactly what we do have.

Sorry, I made a mistake when I re-wrote my post. What I was trying to say is that their ticket would be valid on the more direct train as far as Warrington but they don't have a ticket from Warrington to Euston, since they have a ticket from Coventry to Euston.

 

[richw]

I had a similar scenario about 18 months ago. Helpful staff member in ticket office looked at what I had, printed a new itinerary and signed his details and that he authorised travel via the printed itinerary on the split tickets held.
I wouldn’t advise doing it without proof of authority

 

[Starmill]

This kind of thing is where paper tickets are better in my opinion, as the station staff can stamp and endorse them.

In theory staff can add notes on the aztec code. This would then be visible to whomever later scans the ticket. Their willingness to actually do it at the station is a different question, as is the reliability of the technology. The station staff can also issue paper slips for onwards authority to travel or a sundry from the ticket office. Again if they actually will or not is a different question.

 

[Watershed]

The right to take the next available train in the event of a missed connection is unfortunately still subject to the requirement to stop at all split points, and to use trains that comply with the route/TOC restrictions of the tickets held.

Given a split at Coventry, that means you couldn't automatically take a subsequent train that runs via the Trent Valley. Of course, there's every possibility that speaking to the Train Manager of the next available service via the Trent Valley would have favourable results, but it would be imperative that this is done before boarding.

Clearly it would be nonsensical for Avanti not to allow the above given it would mitigate the delay, but TOCs often seem to prefer to apply the rules rigidly - even if that results in entirely avoidable delays that increase their Delay Repay liability. I suppose from the narrow-minded view that a lot of TOCs take, Avanti might argue that the increased liability would be on Northern's part rather than theirs, so they have no incentive to mitigate the delay - there seems to be no recognition whatsoever that their revenues and costs both accrue to the DfT...

There are two exceptions to the above rule. The first would be the right to rerouting at the earliest opportunity under the PRO - this would be engaged if the anticipated delay in arrival at the final destination, by taking the next available train that complies with the restrictions described above, would be 61+ minutes (note: an anticipated delay of exactly 60 minutes, as in the case of a clockface hourly service where the next train is on time, would not be covered).

Most TOCs routinely fail to comply with their PRO rerouting obligations, so there's a good chance that staff will simply go based on normal policy rather than making any attempt to really engage with your rerouting request.

It's also worth noting that the PRO rerouting obligation falls on the TOC that caused the delay, rather than the next TOC you are due to take (or that operates the next available train). In this case it will therefore fall on Northern rather than Avanti, assuming it's Northern's train that caused the missed connection. So again under the balkanized industry structure, Avanti could say "this has nothing to do with us" and refer you back to Northern.

In that case, I would have suggested the best course of action is to contact Northern (ideally on writing, e.g. Twitter) to request rerouting. In the highly likely event this is denied and you're told you have to speak to stick to your booked route/TOC/split points, or that you have to speak to Avanti or some other fob-off excuse, you have clear grounds for claiming back the cost of any additional tickets required to travel via the quickest available itinerary.

Again, this is something your partner may not want to entertain, as they may not have the available funds or risk appetite for paying upfront and then trying to claim back later. In that case I can only suggest sticking to the booked split/calling points and claiming increased Delay Repay.

The other exception would be if, by having to comply with the above restrictions, you would be stranded overnight as there are no more compliant trains or itineraries the same day. In that case, NRCoT condition 28.2 would require any train company in a position to assist you (i.e. including Avanti, even if not "at fault") to allow you to use their services, or otherwise to make sure you got to your destination by alternative transport. Given the time of day you refer to, if the journey finishes in London, it's highly unlikely that this obligation would come into question.

Do Avanti ever do arrival checks at Euston? I've never been checked on arrival, though I don't use Avanti into Euston very often and that's not to say it never happens of course.

Not manually, but the barriers at platforms 1-3 are reasonably often in operation on arrival.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Okay, thanks all for the advice. I think the fact it's not me travelling is the big determiner here; I am obviously fairly clued up about trains being an enthusiast, and more than happy to try my luck with Avanti TMs and Northern staff, etc. but my other half will not want that hassle and will likely end up very confused or stressed, so I think for the sake of simplicity we'll just fall back on the next via Birmingham service if the first one is missed.

Thanks

 

[LowLevel]

The right to take the next available train in the event of a missed connection is unfortunately still subject to the requirement to stop at all split points, and to use trains that comply with the route/TOC restrictions of the tickets held.

Given a split at Coventry, that means you couldn't automatically take a subsequent train that runs via the Trent Valley. Of course, there's every possibility that speaking to the Train Manager of the next available service via the Trent Valley would have favourable results, but it would be imperative that this is done before boarding.

Clearly it would be nonsensical for Avanti not to allow the above given it would mitigate the delay, but TOCs often seem to prefer to apply the rules rigidly - even if that results in entirely avoidable delays that increase their Delay Repay liability. I suppose from the narrow-minded view that a lot of TOCs take, Avanti might argue that the increased liability would be on Northern's part rather than theirs, so they have no incentive to mitigate the delay - there seems to be no recognition whatsoever that their revenues and costs both accrue to the DfT...

There are two exceptions to the above rule. The first would be the right to rerouting at the earliest opportunity under the PRO - this would be engaged if the anticipated delay in arrival at the final destination, by taking the next available train that complies with the restrictions described above, would be 61+ minutes (note: an anticipated delay of exactly 60 minutes, as in the case of a clockface hourly service where the next train is on time, would not be covered).

Most TOCs routinely fail to comply with their PRO rerouting obligations, so there's a good chance that staff will simply go based on normal policy rather than making any attempt to really engage with your rerouting request.

It's also worth noting that the PRO rerouting obligation falls on the TOC that caused the delay, rather than the next TOC you are due to take (or that operates the next available train). In this case it will therefore fall on Northern rather than Avanti, assuming it's Northern's train that caused the missed connection. So again under the balkanized industry structure, Avanti could say "this has nothing to do with us" and refer you back to Northern.

In that case, I would have suggested the best course of action is to contact Northern (ideally on writing, e.g. Twitter) to request rerouting. In the highly likely event this is denied and you're told you have to speak to stick to your booked route/TOC/split points, or that you have to speak to Avanti or some other fob-off excuse, you have clear grounds for claiming back the cost of any additional tickets required to travel via the quickest available itinerary.

Again, this is something your partner may not want to entertain, as they may not have the available funds or risk appetite for paying upfront and then trying to claim back later. In that case I can only suggest sticking to the booked split/calling points and claiming increased Delay Repay.

The other exception would be if, by having to comply with the above restrictions, you would be stranded overnight as there are no more compliant trains or itineraries the same day. In that case, NRCoT condition 28.2 would require any train company in a position to assist you (i.e. including Avanti, even if not "at fault") to allow you to use their services, or otherwise to make sure you got to your destination by alternative transport. Given the time of day you refer to, if the journey finishes in London, it's highly unlikely that this obligation would come into question.


Not manually, but the barriers at platforms 1-3 are reasonably often in operation on arrival.

It is of course worth making the usual note that the staff will have no idea what you're on about if you start quoting PRO at them given that it doesn't feature in any training that I've ever been aware of - after years in the industry, most of them in a role where I have some authority (or perhaps more importantly, discretion) over customer's travel plans I've still never seen or heard it written anywhere except on this forum in any official sense.

Guidance on regulation No 1371/2007 on rail passengers' rights and obligations

www.gov.uk

Is a wonderfully concise and easy to understand summary (in my opinion) and I think should be mandated to feature in TOC training. I'm not sure it's whether it's totally up to date or not but it is the kind of thing that's needed.

Even Transport Focus in it's summary of passenger rights contains no reference to it.

As ever - I make no argument that the rights exist, simply that you're as well telling someone who believes the earth is flat that it's round as to quote them at the average railway staff member right up to management level from the ground up as they'll have no idea what you're on about.

 

[najaB]

so I think for the sake of simplicity we'll just fall back on the next via Birmingham service if the first one is missed.

There's no harm in asking station staff since they'll have nothing to lose by doing so.

 

[Watershed]

It is of course worth making the usual note that the staff will have no idea what you're on about if you start quoting PRO at them given that it doesn't feature in any training that I've ever been aware of - after years in the industry, most of them in a role where I have some authority (or perhaps more importantly, discretion) over customer's travel plans I've still never seen or heard it written anywhere except on this forum in any official sense.

Guidance on regulation No 1371/2007 on rail passengers' rights and obligations

www.gov.uk

Is a wonderfully concise and easy to understand summary (in my opinion) and I think should be mandated to feature in TOC training. I'm not sure it's whether it's totally up to date or not but it is the kind of thing that's needed.

Even Transport Focus in it's summary of passenger rights contains no reference to it.

As ever - I make no argument that the rights exist, simply that you're as well telling someone who believes the earth is flat that it's round as to quote them at the average railway staff member right up to management level from the ground up as they'll have no idea what you're on about.

Agree completely - awareness of the PRO within the industry is minimal and nobody seems to appreciate the scale to which it is being breached on a daily basis. I certainly wouldn't want to suggest that individual members of staff are doing anything wrong based on the lack of training they've received.

However, just from a perspective of human compassion and wanting to mitigate the railway's deservedly appalling reputation, a lot of staff could (and should IMHO) use their discretion to issue Authority to Travels, endorsements or zero excesses more frequently. This would negate any requirement to rely on the PRO, for example.

Unfortunately, I'm not sure that simply taking people through the PRO guidance would be enough to ensure greater compliance - although clearly it would be far better than the current "do nothing" approach.

We'd really need a much larger change to attitudes across the industry, whereby disruption policies incorporate the PRO properly and put the passenger first. We'd need to end the inane application of restrictions down to the letter at the cost of common sense, or indeed financial bottom line of the TOC and thus the taxpayer.

Sadly I can't see any of that happening anytime soon. There are some piecemeal efforts as part of the SISJ initiative but it is far too little and too slow, as everything needs to go through millions of layers of bureaucracy and objections before even the slightest change can be made.

 

[Starmill]

It is of course worth making the usual note that the staff will have no idea what you're on about if you start quoting PRO at them given that it doesn't feature in any training that I've ever been aware of - after years in the industry, most of them in a role where I have some authority (or perhaps more importantly, discretion) over customer's travel plans I've still never seen or heard it written anywhere except on this forum in any official sense.

Guidance on regulation No 1371/2007 on rail passengers' rights and obligations

www.gov.uk

Is a wonderfully concise and easy to understand summary (in my opinion) and I think should be mandated to feature in TOC training. I'm not sure it's whether it's totally up to date or not but it is the kind of thing that's needed.

Even Transport Focus in it's summary of passenger rights contains no reference to it.

As ever - I make no argument that the rights exist, simply that you're as well telling someone who believes the earth is flat that it's round as to quote them at the average railway staff member right up to management level from the ground up as they'll have no idea what you're on about.

Absolutely. You'd expect a reference to it here too: https://www.nationalrail.co.uk/travel-information/your-rights-and-obligations-as-a-passenger

But it seems there isn't one.

 

[yorkie]

Hello.

Tomorrow I've booked my OH onto a train from the Furness down to Euston, and a connecting Northern service from the Furness line for before that. It was much cheaper to use Split tickets so that I have a Barrow Lancaster, Lancaster Coventry and Coventry Euston ticket rather than a through Euston ticket. This means, of course, the booked train is a VIA Birmingham service.

However, my question is - if, and this is VERY likely as the last time I tried to travel from Barrow, three were cancelled in a row - the Northern service is cancelled or delayed, thus causing the connection to be missed, the rule is of course you can take the next service...

... but as my partner's end destination is Euston, the next service would then be the fast Trent Valley service that avoids Coventry, and it would make sense that this would be the one to take if the booked one was missed due to Northern's fault. Can this be done, assuming that when the railway causes the journey to be screwed/missed, the rule that trains must call at the split ticket station is waived, in favour of simply just trying to get the customer to their final destination?

Or am I going to have to tell my other half to sit at Lancaster for an hour, skip the fast train that would negate the delay caused by the missed connection, and wait for the next Euston via Birmingham service, because the tickets being used are Lancaster Coventry Coventry Euston?

@Watershed and @Hadders I know you are both fantastic with routing advice so I'd be so grateful if you have any here.

Many thanks

The tickets are valid via Nuneaton:

LANCASTER to COVENTRY
SVS £61.50 ANY PERMITTED TOD,ETICKET
OUTWARD JOURNEY Lancaster to Coventry
Mileage 142.92 (Shortest possible 142.73)
Permitted: Within 3 miles of shortest route.

LONDON TERMINALS to COVENTRY
SVS £44.80 ANY PERMITTED TOD,ETICKET
OUTWARD JOURNEY London Euston to Coventry
Mileage 107.31 (Shortest possible 94.08)

---

Origin Routeing Point – LONDON GROUP
Terminus is a routeing point

---

Destination Routeing Point – Coventry
Terminus is a routeing point

---

Through Mapped Route
Checking G01-WIJ-WFJ-BLY-MKC-RUG-NUN-COV
Traceable on map TV
Permitted: Mapped route.

---

Permitted: Mapped route.

The only issue then is that the train should technically call there; however if it was me I'd certainly be getting on the train from Lancaster and the ticket would be valid to at least the last calling point prior to Nuneaton and that buys time to speak to staff. If the train calls at Crewe or Stafford, then that provides many more options for trains that call at Nuneaton, as well as options via Coventry.

I would do that in addition to asking Northern for re-routeing permissions under the PRO; I'd also be asking Avanti for permission via Twitter.

If it was all bought as one through itinerary, that should help too.